Wirehead Studios

Seeing as there's still too many aspects of Q3 modding that I haven't tried my hand at, I've started a little mapping project. I'm going to make a Quake II inspired map that's based mostly off of the city*.bsp's.

This will be a slow-going thing, but I intend to get something good enough for Generetions Mappackage by the time we're ready to distribute 1.0, at the latest. I mean for this to be (or grow into) a sort of open-community project, where you guys help me out by critique and playtesting. If more experienced mappers are around, please  to let me know if I'm making a mapper's misstep. I have built (quite decent) Quake 2 maps with radiant before, but never did any serious Q3A work, so I'm kind of curious what I'll be able to come up with.

Now, being of the interminably pixel-prodding sort, I'll be making quite a few textures to help spice up the .bsp and get some serious nostalgia going here. The first set of textures I've done (partly now) is of this kind:
(http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/tab_dfloor_2_1.jpg)
As I get 'full sets', I'll release new texture packages.

And I've already used those to make this:
(http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/tab3dm1_pre01.jpg)

As you can see, I'm not going for a precise translation, but something to get the ghist and at least in part copy the layout of the original(s). The door in the above picture is a placeholder texture.. ;]

Is the roof crooked in that shot, or is that a result of FOV doing funny things at that angle?

The roof follows the slant of the stairs. It's not crooked, but it's kind of hard to see the exact angles here indeed.

http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/tab3dm1_pre02.jpg

That should give a slightly less skewed view of what's going on. It also shows a bit of the rest of the WIP area..
Looks like I'll have to dim the lights somewhat :)

Nice! I'm just waiting on Big Mak coming down those stairs ...

Looks really nice :)

Ahh, it's perspective distortion in the shots then.  Looking good so far.

Making some more progress. It's slow going, both due to pain, but also due to the fact that I have to learn all about making gtkradiant to do what I want -- for some reason, making brushes behave and preserve vertex locations when you're dealing with multiple slanting angles is an even bigger pain in the neck than it used to be in my old Quake II editor (Quark, for those who remember). If anyone knows an easy trick to get a consistent, grid-aligned two-way slanting clip on a set of brushes, please enlighten me. :)
Maybe I'll have to make more use of curve patches for the outdoor areas..

Anyway, here's what I got so far. Warning: it's a rather large image, being a six-in-one vertical monster of a bitmap:
http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/tab3dm1_pre03.jpg

Don't mind the 'weird stuff' surrounding the entrance structure. That area is far from done, but part of the imposing wall surrounding the actual entryway is starting to get to my liking. Also note that the blue coloured light above the entrance is meant to emulate the blueish stuff in the original Quake II map. I'm not sure if I want to keep it, make a new texture for it or forget about the blue stuff altogether, so don't mind that. Unless you've got some cool ideas I should hear about! :)

(Question to experienced mappers: is there a neat way to make a square patched archway and end-cap it neatly? I just bent a squared cylinder and put a couple of brushes behind it. That's kind of wasting faces, since a) the vertices of the brushes don't line up to the curves, and b) the cylinder has 'backside' faces that are never seen.)

I have been able to do a lot of texturing work, though, and I'm nearly done with a remake of the Quake II 'palmet' texture set, which is the series that looks like this: (http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/tab_palmet_dmp_9_2.jpg)

I was very fond of those textures and used them often in my Quake II maps. It also happens that Q2's city1.bsp makes heavy use of palmet textures for its sewer-ish area's, so I can put them to a nice amount of use. I intend to make an 'official palace area' with a moderately sized hall and the entrance that you can see in the screenies above, and a 'sewer/maintenance' area that is interconnected with the former. That should allow me to make an interesting, but logically sensible layout.

I think I'll take a break from this now, give my aching hands one or two day's rest, and then finish some Gen models/skins. After that I'll go back to mapping.

Pfew, long post this time. Couldn't resist though, as long as radiant behaves mapping is a lot of fun.

It looks pretty good so far.  It's instantly recognizable as Quake 2 City and looks like "Quake 2 but updated" - just what I'd expect and hope to see.

As for the "blue" stuff in the palace, it's Steedium crystal, like in the lower mines level, placed as a kind of decoration, as you can see here:

Steedium in the mines (http://www.wireheadstudios.org/phoenix/pics/misc/steedium_mines.jpg)
Steedium in the palace (http://www.wireheadstudios.org/phoenix/pics/misc/steedium_palace.jpg)

For manupilating standard brushes shift+click face can be quite usefull. otherwise use edgeselecting ("E) or if you feel bold use the vert tool ("V")

As for making the arches one way of doing them is to place two endcaps and using a simple patch mesh make that "cap" the hole between the bevels. also you can, if you want use four bevels instead of 2 endcaps.

Regarding GTKradiant i really dislike the newest versions of it the fastest way to making brushes is using gtkradiant 1.2.13-update.

Awesome job so far! The map looks exactly the same as the original one.

Thanks Reb. Simply using 2 bevels and a bent curve patch might work.. hadn't thought of that. :]

As for brush manipulation: moving brush faces is not powerful enough, nor is moving edges, to get the shape I want. Vertex manipulation, in theory, should work fine (hell, I'd whip this up in 3d studio max in 5 seconds that way), but radiant is evil.

(http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/mapping_angles.jpg)

The above shape is more or less what I want to get. All its vertices must align with the grid, otherwise I won't be able to fit it in the map or cut it up into pieces for detailed texturing, etc. If I manipulate the verts around B so that they might result in the brush shape, the vert at A will be forced off the grid, and vice versa. It doesn't really seem to matter in what way I try to massage the brushes into this shape, it just doesn't want to that, and starts springing its verts around the place for for an undisclosed reason. Shape looks simple enough to me?

Forgot about that blue texture's use in the mines. :)
The crystals don't make any sense to me there, so I'm going to stray from the original's design there. The outside area near the entrance is going to be quite a bit different from the original's layout too: the original room is kind of cramped for a space that should be more open in a DM map. I also want a more defined look to the palace entrance, and not the 'embedded into rock' look that it had in the original -- for no other real reason than that I don't think I can pull it off in a good/better looking way.

Anychance on getting a copy for playtesting?

I think it might be better to let Tab actually finish the level geometry beyond a single doorway first.   :slippy_thumb:

Ghehehe. Playtesting. Count on several weeks for that to be possible. For the basic layout, I've got about 5-10 percent more or less done and a little less than that when we're talking details. And remember that I'm not counting the work needed for item placement, r_speeds(FPS hits) testing and its consequences and package compilation. :)

The only thing that's near done at this time, is my dfloor + palmet texture set. I think I can upload that tomorrow.

Edit:
By the way, the solution to the brush problem is to set up the brushes to align with a bigger grid and use the clipper tool primarily. If the last steps of shaping the brush are made by clipping the brush, it's possible to make odd shapes without destroying alignment.

I have good news and bad news. Which first? Eeney-meeney..

The good news is that I've made some progress. It's really slow-going and I'm not taking Cardigan's "top advice" -- I'm trying to get each room I make to be as close to acceptable as I can, before moving on to the next. I've simply not learnt the art of detailing well enough to risk doing it after I have a main layout in place -- it serves me best at this point to try and go for all sorts of effects right away, before I learn afterwards how I should have done everything differently. So far it's saved me from a few nightmares already. :)

The bad news is for the purists: I am now definitely straying so far from the city1 entrance design that that area is not remade, but remixed. To me that is no problem, for I was going to remix the layout of the actual map anyway, but it's quite impossible not to disappoint some in this respect. The reason for the design-alteration is twofold: first, the original entrance design was nice for Quake 2 standards, but hideously underdetailed for Quake 3 standards, so remaking it out of a few brushes would not be satisfactory. Adding detail to the basic layout would however be impractical: the odd angular brushes cannot be detailed (by me) without destroying their shape or getting huge splits and seams everywhere. Inefficient, ugly and definitely not worth the trouble. The second reason is that playability is important. Good idea: remake an area. Bad idea: remake an area even if that would suck for anything but single player usage.

Here are two more screenshots for those interested in how it's coming along:
http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/tab3dm1_pre04.jpg

Lighting the outdoor area properly will prove to be a challenge, but I'm liking the (bottom part of) the geometry of the main entrance/facade as it is. It also sports a few of the textures I've been cooking up. :] The look of the area, when I'm done with it and if all goes according to my wishes, will be one of an open area between two buildings, surrounded by rocky cliffs. An industrial wall/back-entrance will face the palace entrance and there will be a service/sewer-ish side entrance to the palace.

I'm getting the hang of using curves, but I still have to get a feel for the architecture on the hardware. So far I've not been able to get a drop below even the 333 FPS mark, but the r_speeds are showing 3000-4000 verts in some places already, which seems to be about average for the more highly detailed of id's Q3A maps.

One other thought struck me, and that is that, as a beginning amateur I am both amazed by what good mappers pull off, as well as what mediocre mappers think they can get away with. I know I won't be up there with the big boys of mapping unless I both use my texturing skills to the fullest and practice a few more years. I also know that even a beginner can avoid ugly, lazy designs that can be found in most maps that I encounter in our search for material for the next mappack..

Holy crap... great looking screenshots there...

Thanks. :]

Made some progress on the outdoor area. I think I finally got an imposing facade going here.
http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/tab3dm1_pre05.jpg

You're picking this up fairly quick.  Looking alright so far, though it's kind of weird seeing curves in Strogg architecture.  I'm used to the angular style that was partially a result of Quake 2's engine limitations.  :)

Quick indeed! I'm still feeling my way around Doom Builder ...

I think you need to give yourself a bit more credit there, Tab. I've seen a lot of 'beginner' maps.. including my own.. and yours definitely doesn't look it. But then you said you've mapped before.. just not for Q3. I can see the prior mapping experience just in the screenshots. Now.. beginner with Radiant.. that I can see. :)

Looks great. :slippy_thumb:

I would be the mapper newbie if anyone were to take up mapping.  My mapping experience consists of a WolfEdit episode that I never finished, hacking E2M8 of Wolf3d so I could get 100% secrets, items, and kills for finishing the episode (that's the level that had the "Aardwolf" secret maze), and a brief foray into DoomCAD.  I got distracted by Dehacked because I thought it was more fun to make exploding bullet puffs and gatling shotguns.  :doom_love:

I could probably figure out mapping at some point but I have way too much coding to do.  Does make me a little jealous how Tab makes everything look like it's so damned easy for him though.

I made lots and lots of maps for Doom! I'll see if I can find some old stuff -- I can't even recall exactly what I used to make them.. I think it was DEU (at least, I recall staring at screens like this for many hours: http://legacy.newdoom.com/der/levels/2begin11.gif ). I spent most time, however, editing sprites and starting 'Total Conversions' that ended up being more like 'Unfinished, Nowhere-Near-Total Conversions'. My Quake II mapping experience (in QuArK, no less) helps some, because I know some of the basic the pitfalls of brushwork. The best help, so far, have been the radiant manual and dOnkey's tutorials (http://www.leveldk.co.uk/tutindex.htm) (they're a good way to leave inefficient/clumsy approaches to mapping behind).

Trust me, it's not easy for me. I just a) refuse to give up if a program (max, radiant, photoshop) refuses to do what I want it to do and b) can't help but work and rework anything that just isn't acceptable (unless it's buggy and I'm unaware of it ;)).

I have a feeling that eventually we'll have to produce some remakes or remixes of our own to complete the selection of maps and to get some proper nostalgia texture use going. Doom remakes using Lunaran's textures look cool most of the time, but any other texture-set usually lacks either aesthetic quality or nostalgia-powerrr. So, I don't think it'll hurt to give it a shot --- eventually. :]

I'm kinda jealous of people who can map... my first really serious attempt at mapping met an unfortunate end when I loaded up Q3radiant (I think) only to find the map that was between 50-75 % done had assploded into nothingness, all the main structure was done I had just started re-texturing things to non-placeholder stuff and... poof everything was gone save the filename  :wall: but what the hell, might as well give it another shot sooner or later...

So Tab, you mean your apparently demigod-like texture, model, and (it appears also) mapping talent is really just stubbornness, brute force, determination, and not knowing when to quit?  I'd say we have a lot more in common than I previously thought!  :D

Well usually by using the clipper tool or doing a CSG subtract with a brush that you've cliped/edge editet/vertex manipulated with the desired design.

Well id say your doing pretty damn good with the map so im not sure if your not gonna "compete" with the big boys :)
Well since i come home yesterday i might get started to try do some mapping work myself..and of cuz give you alot more work to do ;)

Why do you think I'm often on the brink of RSI-problems? ;]

Always feel free to ask, Reb!

I've got a fairly decent rock-formation going and I've created a different building front that faces the palace entrance, so the outdoors area is almost done. I'll upload some more screenies later. :)


Edit: new screenshots:

http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/tab3dm1_pre06.jpg

Edit 2:
By the way, I've found my WAY old Doom II WADfiles. Looks like I've still got four old maps. If you feel masochistic enough to give them a try, here they are (http://www.tabun.nl/dl/Tabs%20old%20WADS.zip).

Cripes... why couldn't Quake IV look like THAT?!?  It's starting to look a lot like Stroggos.

Thanks Pho - twas good reading that. :)

I've done a some work on the 'side-entrance' and the first sewers-ish area. Progress is slow as I've got other stuff to do now, but I'm still working on it.

http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/tab3dm1_pre07.jpg

Yet more droolage.  That's looking very, very nice.  Dammit, where's our "Quake2 - love" smiley....

*slurp*

My god... Its... brown... yet... awesome...

Can't... stop... talking like... shatner...


KHAAAAAAN!!!

QIIFTW
Awesome job Tab!

Goomba love is the best kind of love...

Awesome job Tabun!  :slippy_thumb:

I've run into a couple of snags and my lack of mapping experience doesn't making planning the map any easier. Instead of moving on now and ruin the potential of the areas that I've built, I think I'd rather tackle an easier job, first. Something that won't demand special attention (at least primarily) to anything but visuals and nostalgia.

So, I think the first map I'll finish will be what I can make of this:
http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/tabd2map01_pre01.jpg

Hmm. Going full purist isn't my thing. That would mean making perfect-matching textures and using them in horrible ways. Instead, I've got this, so far:

http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/tabd2map01_pre02.jpg

The only thing I'm somewhat worried about is the scale. It looks to be rather a bit upscaled in comparison, but the texture units/size match. I know Quake 3 needs big enough spaces for enjoyable playing, but it does mean players are un-doomishly small. Since there is no way to scale whole groups of brushes altogether without destroying texture placement (correct me if I'm wrong, please!), there's no acceptable way for me to change the size. I'll just keep going and hope it won't kill the map.

http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/tabd2map01_pre02_scale.jpg

Edit: I can correct myself. Rescaling the entire map was easier than I'd expected. I expected most textures (especially slanted/rotated ones) to shift all over the place. Turns out I was wrong. I can now find a good size in between Doom-scale and Q3A-playable-scale.

http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/tabd2map01_pre02_scale_2.jpg

Very Doomy indeed.  Tab let me take a stroll around what he's done in the map so far.  The bird likes.  :doom_love:

Very nice indeed :) rly should try make sometime for mapping aswell but life's a bitch sometime...
Anyways one thing i did notice is that the white line that are on all panels is missing on the panel with the light..looks abit odd to me since the texture match the green background exactly.

I don't quite follow.. What white line and which light texture.. Can you illustrate?

if u take a look at: http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/tabd2map01_pre02_scale_2.jpg
You'll see the thin little white line on the "green" textures.

Those are missing on the "lamp" texture

-----   Lamp texture no line   ------


-----------------------------------  <--- line all the way



----------------------------------- <--- same here

Instead:

------Lamp texture----------------


----------------------------------


----------------------------------

Lol dont know if that explained it much better

I think boot means the line I've pointed to in green which is on the left and right sides of the light texture.  The stark white line I've drawn in is where this is missing on the light texture.  I've pointed to that with the red arrows.  Compare to the original and note that the white band is absent from that texture.

:) thanks pho yeah thats what i meant

Righto. It is not so much a white line as the highlighted top of a beveled area. I purposedly didn't repeat that for the section the light is in, as the light itself would overlap and make the bevel weirdish. Also, any consistency issues that might have worried me are made void by the fact that the light sections are indented and aren't immediately connected to the non-light surfaces. :]

Understood and noted, but not something I'm willing to spend time and effort on while there's 8/10ths of a map to make.

How many players do you want? MAP01 is almost exclusively a 1-on-1 map in Doom, and a very good 1-on-1 map. It's not designed to have six people running around in it.

I sense the slight smell of critique in that post, so I'll respond accordingly :).
For a quick answer: I want it to be an FFA map.
For a long one, see the "spoiler".

I have made some progress:
tabd2map01_pre03.jpg (http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/tabd2map01_pre03.jpg)

Some things (most notably the lighting) are still very much WIP here. I'm playing around with textures and light fixtures. Not in the screenshots: I'm working on the blue-carpeted room and I've got the lifts working and looking nice. Too bad you can't make a brush both a func_button and (part of) a func_plat. If that were possible (please correct me if I'm wrong here), I could have made it work just like in DooM...

[rant]And before anyone asks:  No.  I will not code 100% pure Doom physics.  Doom was 2.5D and used polar vectors, and used a peer-to-peer network scheme.  Q3 works in full 3D and uses a client-server model with local prediction.  I'm not rewriting the entire physics code just so people can wall run.  Doom's fast enough.  You wanna go faster?  Grab the haste.[/rant]

As far as map01 being a 1 vs 1 map, let me clear something up here.  Map01 is a single player map that is overplayed for 1 vs 1 games.  As far as design and layout goes it sucks for 1 vs 1 and here's why:

1)  Map layout.  The map is a U-shaped hallway with three blind terminated rooms.
2)  Weapon loadout.  Two BFG's in the same room with a SSG and Rocket launcher?
3)  Reliance on physics tricks.  You can either "bump" the plasma rifle or get killed going up the lift.
4)  Camp factor.

All 1 vs 1 games I've seen on Map01 consist of the following tactics.  First, you grab the nearest gun then head to the hallway.  If you're lucky you'll spawn on the BFG pad or near the SSG room.  Once you kill the other guy, you pitch a tent at the corner opposite the chaingun and listen for respawns.  You then proceed to spawnkill the other guy repeatedly using either the SSG, rockets, or the BFG.  Whoever camps and spawnkills best wins.

How do I know this is so?  I've watched enough games.  In addition, I don't play this way myself but I've played people who do.  I also tend to move into rooms players tend to avoid and use weapons they don't favor.  For example, most Doom 2 players seem to use the SSG and only the SSG.  I've unaffectionately labeled it the "noob cannon" as a result of this.  It's like Slipgate's rockets - Doom 2 players are one-gun wonders.  I will use any weapon I can get, and I tend to favor rockets and plasma.  If I can I go out of my way not to use the SSG.  First, I do it to show the lamers that there are other guns and yes they work.  Second, it throws them off.  Doom 2 players ALWAYS go for the SSG, so by avoiding it and using other guns they're unsure of how to deal with me.  One good example is the single shotgun available if you open the outdoor area (which I like to do).  I had one guy trying to stay in the central hall and potshot me with the SSG down the hallway from around the corner.  I pegged him 3 times with the single shotgun - which patterns tighter at that range - and killed him.  I've also used the silent BFG trick and correctly predicted respawning players would run immediately to the SSG room and camp the door.  A BFG down the long hall and a shot into the doorway provides nice double-flash surprise.  I've won my share of 1 vs 1 games on map01, and I've played some 3-4 player deathmatches there too.

As far as I'm concerned, there is a tremendous nostalgia factor associated with the map and that is the only reason it's something we want to remake.  We've all played there and, back when Doom 2 was new and deathmatch was new, the concept of good deathmatch level design was something that had not yet developed.  If someone presented a brand new map with the weapons and item layout that map01 has and map01 never existed, it would be rejected as a horrible map.  Keep in mind too - I'm an oldschool Doom 1 player, not a Doom 2 player.  Doom 1 deathmatch plays much, much different from Doom 2.

All that being said... it is a classic, high-nostalgia map and because of it's venerated status among Doomers - of which I am one of the old-school variety - a proper remake is something we want.  Remixed slightly for Gen (for scale purposes) it should be a great place to frag, especially when you throw a mix of classes in.  Playing the Gen version 1 vs 1 I think will be much more interesting then playing the actual map in Doom 2.  I know I like playing Bad Place, Gloom Keep, and The Dark Zone better in Gen than I do in Quakeworld, and I don't mean that just as a shameless plug.  I really prefer the varied gameplay and slightly larger scale to the maps.  Even Slipgate vs Slipgate I like it better.  I think the same will hold true with this remake.

Looking good! It's nice to see a Doom remake that actually looks like Doom for a change. :doom_thumb:

 :offtopic: Also, it makes me wonder whatever happened to Devlar's Canyon (PSX Fnal Doom) remake from a few years back. Never actually saw the light of day as I recall ...

I had never seen it myself.  I know he was working on a Q1 start map remake that never was completed.  The only map I know of that he finished is devsever.

Tab:  Forgot in my last post to say, looking good.  The outdoor area near the sp spawn looks very Doomy with that sky.  :doom_thumb:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think someone has already made a remake of this map before, as well as a remake of d1e1m1. Still, the d2 map looks awesome Tab. Are you using original textures, or the ones made for the jDooM re-texturing project?

The Tabinator... using someone else's textures?  Surely you jest!  It's all home-grown Tab there.  :doom_thumb:

I am using some textures by others!
For one thing, the blue carpet in (what I appropriately call) the blue room (not depicted yet) is a texture by Lunaran (the one you can also find in mksteel), and so is the blue techno-stuff in the panels next to the door. Then one or two textures are default Q3 textures. One texture is from the Jdoom pack (which by the way ripped and destroyed tons of my textures, being so nice as to claim  I've actually made the mess that they distributed). That one texture is the circuit boardish stuff that is on the walls in the room that sits before the RL spawn niche.

But that's it. All other textures are by my own hand. I expect that I'll be making a lot more, but I will be using some premade stuff for rocks and light fixtures. No need to reinvent the wheel (when it's not a shabby wheel, that is).

For one thing, many people have remade d2map01, and for pretty much every other game that was released after, or previously before, DooM was. True as that may be, it is equally true that 9 out of 10 of those remakes suck worse than my transsexual prostitute aunt. Perhaps some are fun to play, but look horrible, or simply nothing like the original, but none are anywhere near good enough. Some aren't even remakes, but far-fetched remixes (like, f.i. Amphetamine's version). Most are downright horrid.
Mine, if anything, will be a nostalgia version, and if I get things right, one that won't err on the side of ugliness.

Alright... so I was wrong on something.  There.  Everyone throw a party or something.  O_o

The thread is here (http://forums.wireheadstudios.org/index.php?topic=1031.0) but the screens appear to have taken a dive with the hack. Oh well.

You were only slightly wrong, so perhaps only a tiny party is in order? ;]

Ahh, I remember this now Scal.  I forgot what the map was but I do remember him having a shader difficulty.

Tab:  How about a Gen party!  :doom_love:

WHEN??? :doom_love:

The party, that is. Er...

Tab:  I find your lack of partying disturbing... but I find your DOOM map aesthetically pleasing.  Keep up the good work.  Darth 'Gater out. :ninja:

I had no idea you were the author of that texture! And I also had no idea that some of your work is used on that pack.
Back on topic: As long as the party is on a weekend, then fine by me, as long as it isn't in next week's weekend.

You misread: the texture mentioned is actually one of the very few that I didn't make. The other part is correct though, my door texture is in that pack, and it's also cut and pasted good to make other textures from it, for instance.

Hey Tab, were you ever able to work out the problem with your Q2 map? Just looking at the screens on it made my eye bug O_O !! Plus that DooM map. Strangely familiar. heh


I know, old topic. I was just curious.

The only real problem that map suffers from, so far, is that it's starting to get a bit themeless, a bit like a bunch of juggled brushes. I've still got it sitting around here, and there's enough acceptable sections in it to press for a release later, but I'm working on the Doom map first.

Both are pretty much on hold at the moment, though. I've always had difficulty doing one thing (studying) and another (gen-devving) without letting the flow of one slow to a trickle..

Quality over quantity - a Pixel Procrastinator's Creed.  :D

That d2map01 map is looking brilliant!  Just for nostalgia I could see myself and my brother playing on that a good bit.  It looks like your really nailing it so far.  The attention to detail and the geometry in there are really impressive...and the Q2 map on the first page of this thread has me excited as well.  You seem to really have a knack for this mapping thing Tab...I'm impressed; you seem to have a talent for picking things up and running with them...you and Pho really impress me with the fact that you both seem to quickly jump into something and end up excelling with it. 

I would say Tab has more of the artistic talent going for him.  I'm just too stubborn to realize something shouldn't work until I've already done it.

I have bits and pieces of a DOOM1 E1M4 map I was working on (originally going to be a CTF remix...never got to far with that).  I'm halfway tempted to try and use that (the parts that are faithful to the original) as a starting point for a remake.  The scale would be a little different (as I remember the "maze" area had a higher ceiling so you could actually jump in there)...but it would be fairly close.  I have a feeling I'll get started and never finish it (I have like 3 Q3 maps that I started on and then got distracted...plus dlight shadows are what I focus most of my free creative time on right now).

I love the fact that you've used a lot of actual geometry in that Map01 remake Tab...a lot of things in there would be so easy to just use a flat texture for...but the extra effor is really impressive and thats what really impressed me on first look...the ammount of detail in there!

Just saw this thread and I thought I'd say, good job because I loved the palace levels in Quake 2. I hope you make the rooms a bit bigger than they were in the palace levels though. Be nice to have some tank statues in there maybe.

I just saw this post and read on page 1 that you said you could do some stuff in 3dsmax much faster.  I thought I would give you a heads-up as many q3 mappers don't know they can make q3 levels completely in 3dsmax.  I only wish I had the time to learn how to work in 3dsmax, because I really would like to make some nice terrain maps.

Anyway, have a look here:
http://www.urbanterror.net/news.php?extend.107

I have q3map2_fs_20g.exe, and I don't know if there are newer versions.  That was the most recent version I could find back in early last year when I was looking into this.

Also, if you are looking to better your abilities in q3 mapping you can, if you haven't already, take a look here:
http://www.simonoc.com/pages/articles.htm

I think most mappers who still map for q3 today are at least aware of the topics discussed in that link, mostly due to Pyramid of the Magician.

I've seen a lot of (good, bad and ugly) tutorials, but haven't come across that site yet. Once I get back to mapping, I'll have a looksee there.

As for 3dsmax-based mapping -- I'm sure there's some possibilities, but I'm also pretty sure that it'll be harder to control r_speeds and physics issues. I don't really have any difficulty making acceptable terrain floors at this time, but who knows when it might come in handy.

First thing I'll do when I get back to mapping is finish the doom2map01 remake. I'm good for that on every aspect but time. ;]

The r_speeds, I believe, was one of the major reasons why the UT team (I think it was one guy who did it) modified that q3map2.  Creating detailed shapes and terrain has a big impact on r_speeds.  Using their ASE based terrain, r_speeds were dramatically lower while achieving greater level of detail.

Damn, now I'm suddenly itching to get back to work on the Doom map... Heh.

I've done some more work on it. Feels kind of good to be fixing up textures and bits of a level again. Still working up the courage to pick up 3ds max, too..

The big room with the blue carpet (mostly):
http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/tabd2map01_pre04.jpg

And the other "big room":
http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/tabd2map01_pre05.jpg

Switches work, for the most part, although not all in the big brown room.

The latter is very much a W.I.P. as far as lighting goes. It needs some spotlights and it will be a lot darker once I'm through with it. First I want to tackle the outside area, though. That would mean finishing the areas (in basic outline). Not too much more work now...

Damn fine looking stuff there, Tab.. ..and saying that feels like it's getting old and stale. One of these days, I'll need to examine something with a magnifying glass and cry out at some minute and obscure flaw even though I'd never be able to do any better myself.

I kid, of course. Always nice to see eyecandy from the pixel procrastinator.

Nice work! A proper version of Entryway at last!

That's looking very, very Doomy indeed.  The bird approves!  :doom_thumb:

Thanks all.

I was working on the map today, and for the hell of it compared its actual top-view layout to the original Entryway. Now, mind you, I have so far just eyeballed it (based on screenshots and some textured map pictures).

(http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/tabd2map01_pre06_map.jpg)
orange = original DooM map, blue = gtkradiant top-view

Close enough -- and a lot closer than I'd expected it to be. Outside area still needs a lot of work..

For eyeballing it, I'd say that's pretty close.

Aye, I got lucky a few times -- and sticking to the grid helps too.

I just wasted a day trying to figure out how to get Sock's terrain (dotproduct2/alpha) to work. Couldn't even  compile his own tutorial map -- it works now. Now I just need to tame it to get a decent outdoorsy look going..

Done some more work. Aside from the outside area, which I've tried to make somewhat hilly (screenies), I've playerclipped most of the areas, added ambient sounds and tinkered with lighting.

http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/tabd2map01_pre07.jpg
(don't mind the black lines in the skybox -- I can't fix that with the drivers I'm using on my non-gaming rig)

I still need to properly light the big brown room -- and find some way to do it nicely. After that, I can think about item placement (I'll make one true-to-Doom version, ofcourse, but FFA might be spiced up by a more interesting set-up).

I'm done with setting up vis. The map is really pretty low on r_speeds (max 7000 verts or so) right now. That's the way it should be, because it's still close enough to Doom to be fairly basic. I'm hesitant to add too much detail and spoil the Doomy feel of the thing.

I did hit a snag when I played with the scale of the whole map. It turns out that it is closest to DooM scale at 0.7 times what I've made it, while still allowing you to jump without hitting the ceiling. Unfortunately, when scaling it down that way, curves/patches get disconnected from the brushwork of the map (cracks all over the place). Thankfully, this problem does not occur scaling to 0.75 times. I guess vertices of brushes and patches get differently rounded down or something. The map goes off-grid when scaling smaller (or with odd values), so manual fixes seem to be impossible. Three quarters of the original size works well enough, but it would be nice if I could get it a few notches closer to the way it felt in Doom.

Skybox lines not withstanding, that looks pretty darn nice.  The slope makes the water pooling feel more natural, and I love seeing slopes in terrain as it makes for more interesting play.

Did some more work - almost ready to make a sort of alpha-test version.

http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/tabd2map01_pre08.jpg

Note that I'm still tinkering with the water shader (it's making some weird pixely blotches, no good yet).

I'm fairly happy with the overall lighting now, just need to tweak the sun a bit. From the feedback (some of) you guys may be willing to give me, I'm hoping to find out whether the map is too dark. It looks ok on my end, but settings/set-ups differ...

I guess most of the work left is technical: fixing some brushes to get better fps, getting bots to work et cetera. That is, aside from item placement.

:O looks cool tab and very doomish :) can't wait till i can give this map a spin!

only thing that comes in mind is the outdoor area looks abit "spartan" and for me the green floor seems out of place, dont rember if the floor was green in the original doom but id go for a more brown(dust) texture with maybe hints of green grass in it.

ugh maybe i should try find sometime and work on my maps aswell :S

Yes, you should! And as before, I'd still help you out with textures (and feedback). :]

Here's the outside area in Doom II:
(http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/tabd2map01_pre_doom35.jpg)
Looks green enough to me.. ;]

I'd do tufts of grass (keeping the textures as they are, though), but I really can't be bothered to model and skin them at the moment. If you know a good set of radiant-usable plants/grassy bits, I'd be very much obliged. :]

Later today I'll "release" a test version of this map. I'm going to try and get as much in there as I can, but it'll probably lack proper bot support.

^^ well i tried to make the textures my own but im afraid i failed quite good at them -.- i'll send you them and you could try to use the "magic" touch on em and do something good out of em instead...

ah yes it was green thought it was, well might have worked back in the ol times but nowdays..well :)
hmm well im sure there are some good terrain sets out there and that reminds me i need to find some on my own..
there is the q3 defaullt terrain asset but it looks like crap gray with some grass tufts so i whouldnt use that one :P

well i'll try to find sometime for mapping tomorrow, thought it sucks having 6 day work shift. (give me a new job plx!!!)

There's one with grass tufts in Not Quite Earth, but it would not work on Entryway since the grass is most definitely green on map01.  I'd not want to make it grey or tan outside and spoil it.  As an oldschool Doomer, everything in the screenies looks good to me so far, so I'm waiting on a test version to get a real 3D, in-game look.  There's only so much one can tell from screenshots which is why I'm reserving a lit of critique until I can see the map from within and without, as it were.

Here it is, the "alpha1" version of "Return to the Entryway":

http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/tabd2map01_alpha1.zip
(approx. 10Mb)
Note: don't distribute this any further. I don't want this version to give me problems when releasing a newer one. This is sort of a Wirehead test.. :]

You know the drill. Bots should work, although they are stupid as always, and won't go for the plasmagun. Gameplay is horrid, but this is (and correct me if I got it wrong!) the original Doom item layout.

Feedback is welcome, specifically with regards to:

• Light levels (areas to dark, too bright, etc - in comparison to other q3 maps on your setup)
• Clipping and geometry errors, HOM effects, trippy stuff
• Texture errors: misaligned textures, missing textures, skybox, et cetera
• Does the skybox have lines for you? With what video card/driver settings?
• Doominess (though note that there are limits to what I'm willing to do, or even can do with this)
• Enormously weird bot behaviour (beyond the basic stupidity)

Tips on anything else welcome aswell, ofcourse.

Some things that will change in later versions:
1. The little light over the door to the outside area will be altered.. doesn't look right to me now.
2. The lights in the sides of the big window will be made brighter.

Discussion and tips for possible good item layouts = very much welcomed. I'm not really sure how to tackle that one, other than to use a lot more of the map's areas than in the original layout.

I tested the map with Generations, and that seems to work fine (and is pretty neat with only DooM bots..).

Ok, I loaded up the original map to compare.. and this isn't the original item layout. The items that are there are correct.. but.. there's numerous health items missing throughout the map, some pistol clips, the armor (and health) in the blue room secret area, a few armor helmets, the shotgun and shells outside (may as well make it a double shotty and shell box), and the RL behind the rocket box in that secret area.

I knew it looked a bit empty when I loaded it up and ran through it.. but that said, the original layout is a bit dubious to me. Why have two BFGs pretty much right next to each other? In fact, that whole 'start area' is a bit overpopulated in the weapon category. Just my opinion though.. but hey, it IS true to form in that regard.

I think the map looks great overall.. but perhaps the 'brown rooms' could be brightened up slightly more, not much tho.
I didn't notice any clipping..
..or texture errors..
..nor did the skybox have lines.
The map is quite 'Doomy'
The bots acted like bots as well.. but with the items that are missing in the map, they have no real reason to use any more of it than they currently do.

I liked the placeholder levelshot, oddly enough.. and also the little tidbit with the exit button. Two nice nostalgic cues. :)

*** ..please note that you can disregard any of this about items if certain entities only work on a current internal version of Gen. ;o

I took a quick stroll through it with some bots tonight.  I'll give the map a more indepth technical look tomorrow as I don't have enough time to do so now.  Some initial impressions though, this is from a .99f runthrough:

Yes, many items are missing.  The main things I noticed are missing chainsaw (machinegun spawn) near the entrance, lack of a single shotgun outside (these will be important for oldschool mode), missing rocket launcher spawn in the room at the end of the hall with the rocket ammo box, and lack of health, armor, and ammo.  I'm not too concerned about those because it's an alpha, and I know item placement is in flux and this is a basic feel test, but I would like to see all the original items placed as they were in the original map.  For the green armor in the blue room's corner section, I'd spawn a yellow armor so it can be playable in normal Q3 that way.  That will also help give anyone spawning in that area somewhat of a chance to not instagib and make the area more purposeful to enter.

Lighting definitely needs some work.  The darker areas could use some ambience or subtle lights added, but the bright areas are sometimes a bit too bright.  The outdoors need to be toned down for certain.  The other area that's excessively bright is the blue room, above the platforms.  I think a reduction in overall ambience and the use of more specific lighting as highlights may be of help throughout the entire map.

I did not see any issues with texturing so far.  The skybox has no lines.  Video card is GeForce GT260 using latest drivers, I have texture clamping disabled in the driver.  I'll test tomorrow with clamping enabled and let you know what happens there.

Doominess is spot-on.  Sky texture is great, overall map appearance is as Doomy as you'll get.  The scale could be a tad smaller but if it's going to cause geometry problems I'd not try to force it.  As it is, it's unmistakable for nostalgia purposes.

Gameplay with the bots was right up where it should be in terms of how the map played in Doom 2.  With 4 bots it's gibs everywhere, as it should be.  It's a LOT harder to spawncamp the halls as in the original owing to the scale of the map, and the fact that Gen's Doomguy doesn't run 60mph.  That's a good thing in my opinion.  I think with the addition of the healthpacks in the exit room and other items around the map it will help with the gameplay flow as well.

A small geometry suggestion with the plasma gun.  Right now it's a hefty jump to get up there.  If there was an invisible stair-like botclip, the bots might be able to get up.  The alternative would be to shift the plasmagun's spawn slightly toward the elevator so the rifle can be grabbed by "bumping" the pad.  This was actually a tactic in Doom 2 to avoid having to go up the elevator to get the plasma rifle.  It's tricky to do.  It would be nifty if there was a way to make the bots ride the elevator and jump down to the plasma, but I have no idea what would be involved in that.

That's it for now.  I'll bugtest it for texture and geometry issues tomorrow.

Ok. I've never really played Doom II's Entryway in multiplayer, so I had to load up the doom2.wad in an editor to see the items. I selected "multiplayer/deathmatch only" for an item filter, and what you see is what I got. I guess it leaves out a lot of stuff. :/ So I can't use that editor (Doom Builder) to see what items are DM vs what are SP only. Oh well. If anyone has a nice visual chart with the items for DM specifically, that'd be a great help! Otherwise, I'm going to have to see about loading up D2 for DM here, but I guess I'd have to get a special doom version for that?

About the items: I want to make three versions, unless that turns out to be a really bad idea.
1. Purist version (everything like it was in D2)
2. Normal Q3A version
3. Balanced Generations version

I don't know exactly how I want to pack those, but file size isn't much of a problem these days anyway. Besides, CTF in this one is pretty much out, so no need to worry about that, I guess.

Light issues can be helped, though it is iffy. I wanted to keep the contrast between the areas that was in the original, between indoors and outdoors. If I both tone down the outdoros and tone up the indoors, I'm afraid to get rid of the difference. The first thing I'll try is just to dim the sky texture's lighting function and the sun, that should help make it less overbright outside.

As I said before, ideal scale seems to be 0.7 times what I made the map in. If I can find a way to make the patches/curves behave, that would be workable. Maybe I can write up a script that does that scaling for me, though that sounds like a heck of a lot of work... Maybe I can try a different editor for it aswell, though I don't know of any better ones than GTKradiant..

By the way, I forgot to ask: how are FPS for you guys? On my non-gaming rig, I get drops in the chainsaw area and when I'm in the water in the big outdoorsy room.

Visual map?  Say no more.  I've got some errands I have to take care of, but I'll get a map of the items loaded up later.  If nothing else I'll grab screenshots of everything in its correct place if I can't get my editor to work in XP.  I haven't run DoomCAD since DOS/Win 3.1.  :!:

Update:  DoomCAD likes XP, so I was able to compile a schematic.  Link is in a PM.

Phoenix's excellent nitpicking received and map treated. Fixed item placement. Anyone else find anything amiss?

By the way, Doom Builder has the nice feature of showing light levels in the original:
(http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/doom_builder_b.jpg)

Nifty feature, that!

A little more play testing brought to light some minor concerns with the brown room.  Right now it is possible to jump out that big window, removing the need to use the switch up the elevator to open the door.  In Doom 2 you could not get through that window, even rocket jumping in Zdoom you can't, though projectiles can pass through.  I'm not sure what you want to do there.  The simple answer is to playerclip it, as a solid glass would block shots from passing through.

A second thought was in regards to the ledge with the BFG, Rocket Launcher, and Combat Shotgun.  In Doom 2 part of the gameplay relied on the fact that you could not get back up there if you spawned somewhere else.  You might consider making it require a rocket jump to get up there as opposed to someone just jumping onto the small ledge and jumping up onto the weapons area.  It's not absolutely necessary but just a thought.

We may want to add more than the default 4 spawn points, mainly because of telefrag spawning.  Spawns in the shotgun courtyard and blue room, as well as additional spawns in the brown room might not be a bad idea.  I was also thinking about the door that leads to the shotgun courtyard.  Right now it's a one-shot open from the looks of it.  If you spawn out there you'll open the door on the way in, and nobody will ever use the switch.  Is it possible to make it close after about 30 seconds?  I was thinking the same for the secret door.  I know that works a bit different from the original, but the rocket box room's door is already working different, and I think it would add some gameplay value.  It would make people wanting out into that courtyard occasionally go for the switch.

Something else that could be done with that courtyard in a non-verbatim mode of the map, assuming multiple versions are done, would be to add a powerup to that area.  It would give anyone spawning out there the possibility of getting an edge since it's a blind area with a weak weapon spawn, and encourage occasional travel outside by other players, which would again tie into the switch usage.  I was thinking something along the lines of a regeneration or haste.  If a powerup is placed there the spawn points could probably be omitted from the courtyard in that version.  That would make for some interesting fights by the doorway since you'd have to get past someone possibly wielding a heavy weapon inside the brown room.  If there's no outdoor spawns you might even get away with a Quad/Regen teamchain to make things more interesting and chaotic.  Another alternative option would be to swap the spawns for the single shotgun and BFG that's down by the column, and replace the shotgun ammo outside with BFG ammo.  That would make for more map roaming as well.  This is all just food for thought for after the "classic" version is debugged and made very happy of course.

First, the big window: I really don't want to make the (entire) window player-clipped. I see how it works for gameplay, but that way, spectators would be trapped on one side or the other (currently by default the outside, which is worse), as long as the door is closed. The spectator-door-teleport trick only works for normal doors, not triggered ones. I can also not make it look neat, as adding actual transparant-glass textures to that would cost too much GPU processing power... (but that is a side issue)
What I can try to do is clip the window so that you can only rocket/plasma-jump on it. The disadvantage of that is that it would work very counterintuitively and it will look odd if you're standing on nothingness in the upper part of the window.

I think I'll just make all switches "work" for 60 seconds (or perhaps 90...) and then switch back. Not sure what to do about the RL room, though. I could make it work like in Doom, btw, but I'm a little hesitant to do so.

I think I can make the start-area floor a bit higher up, so you can't jump on it normally, but I think I only want to do that for the/a purist version. Since there's a player spawn there, it's a little odd to use the area as a rocket-jumpable important-item spot in a rebalanced version.

Additional spawn points -- sounds like a good idea. No real need to go purist there, I guess.

The spectator issue is fairly simple.  If players are going in and out the door in a match, naturally the door will be open to allow the spectator through as well.  If the door is closed and they get left out there for some reason, they can just click to follow a player, then a /team s will free them from following.  This is the only way to get out of the spectator spawn on Dunwich as well.  The only time you'd have an issue with a stuck spectator is if the spectator were to spawn in the outsdoor area on an empty map.  Either way, I'd be more concerned about gameplay for active players than spectators.  I'm also only suggesting an invisible playerclip be used, not a glass texture, since it is possible to shoot in and out of the window in Doom.

Makes sense, fair enough. I'm clipping the window. :]

I quoted your private message here Phoenix -- hope you don't mind..


I've fixed the chainsaw spawn.
The doors did all close after a time (there's no always-open in Q3), but you'd have to wait an hour for them to do so. :]

Right now I have the following timers set for the next version:
- Blue room platforms: 60sec
- Blue room armor door 120sec
- Doors to "secret rooms" (RL, stimpack) 30sec
- Door to outside 60sec
Somehow feels like a nice set-up. No real logic to it, actually, but some variation sounds like a good idea.


I'm glad to hear even the Doom II layout is fun/nostalgic to play! I've played bots for a bit, but only played Doom vs Doom bots. Besides, I can't really test for DM nostalgia myself ... :]

By the way, how are FPS? I want to add some more detail, but I don't really know if I should be worried about r_speeds at this point.

By the way, newer version that Phoenix spoke of, is here: http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/tabd2map01/tabd2map01_beta1.zip

The lighting is amazing in that version. The proposed timing changes on the doors should be nice.. but those platforms in the blue room, I dunno. I think they need something there to warrant pushing a button to bring them down anyway. Perhaps in one of the other versions.

As for fps, I was over 130 through the whole thing.. except both outdoors areas, which had me at about 100 for some reason. But anyway, I think you're fine in that regard if you want to add more detail.

I'll have to boot my backup system and test it out on older hardware as well as my newer card.  I didn't notice anything serious that caught my attention right away, but I was paying more attention to gameplay and map details than FPS at the time.  I'll need to test FPS in .99f and the non-pubic beta and get back to you.

Timings sound good.  :doom_thumb:

Feels nice in my opinion, a bit larger that it should, but in mp i can only compare to the entry variation of it.
And if thats are the original item placement I'll just have to get used to.
No slow downs for me and plays nice as earth too, gives him more bullet base combat, what is appealing to that theme.  :doom_thumb:

All i can say is: almost perfect :) there is only three things that, might need to get fixed but no major things

1. every curved archway has it texture rotated at the wrong direction

2. curves in the ceiling at the corridors, has it textures misaligned

3. i also got strange cracks in the skybox.

oh also feels like an overkill with 2 bfg's btw!, and imo you should make the platform where the bfg, chainsaw n stuff more hard to reach in doom u had to actually spawn there to get the goodies, also plasmagun is to easy to reach since you just can jump up and grab it.

cept that well done! awsome map :)

1. I don't know exactly what you mean by "archway", here. I've looked at a few, and they seem fine. Give me a specific example, and I'll take another look.

2. { Edit: actually found a better way to do it, just "Set:" a value, and voila.. looks nicer now. }

3. The platform has been raised, Phoenix brought that one up, too. Plasmagun is supposed to be easier to get -- Doomers are used to this anyway, and jumping changes the game in many more ways than one. Doesn't need a fix.

Remember, this is the "purist" item layout! I assume this version will mostly be used for the pure nostalgia effect (or as close to it as can be got). I might consider changing up geometry for it aswell, but only in a very late stage (too much work to switch back and forth and duplicate changes otherwise).

god if i only had easy access to somewhere to upload a screenshot id show u what i mean -.- well lets say at the  "doors" in the rooms where the bfg's are if you look closely you see the texture "breaks" oddly and with a thin line at the base of the curve, took a closer look at it wasnt that the texture was rotaded wrong, are you using an endcap curve? or is it even a curve brush? i dont know what it is, it just feels...odd :)

for the best result when using curves to make round "arches" i use 2 bevel curves and put a simple patch mesh to fill the gap (rember to group the curve brushes)

well was ages since i did the kind of curves you use there i tend to avoid curves as much as possible nowdays since they mostly produce some kind of errors when using them...or cracking -.-
thought since you bend the curve in so many ways there it's hard to avoid. also deteced a skew curve in the corridor if u enter from the "start of the map aka bfg room and look to the left you will notice it.

Hah, I thought you were talking about that skewed patch texture in the corner of the corridor the first time. :] Anyway, I found and fixed the texture alignment problem with the doorways you mentioned.

I'm actually very fond of patches, though I never even group them. The few quake3world mappers I've heard about them seem to swear by them too, so I'm not worried about relying on them.

Actually, in Doom 2, skilled players (I consider myself among them) will tell you that you can reach the Plasma Rifle without even having to go up the elevator, and this is not playing Zdoom or Zdaemon with jumping enabled.  I'm referring to vanilla Doom 2.  It's called "bumping".  You can run straight into the platform from right next to the elevator and your bounding box will clip the Plasma Rifle slightly, thus picking it up without riding up the elevator and jumping off.  Every oldschool Doom player will do this, so requiring a player to ride the elevator to get the plasma is really just an anachronism.  I wouldn't recommend it for gameplay in Gen.  Besides, you can just strafejump from the raised section that connects to the window, so a minor height difference isn't going to stop people from finding an easier way up there.  Rocket jumping comes to mind.  I'd leave the plasma spawn alone.

Did some FPS testing.

System 1:
Athlon XP 1800+ 1.53 GHz CPU
2 GB PC 2700 DDR SDRAM
GeForce Ti 4600 with 128 MB video RAM

Resolution:  800x600
Anisotropic filtering:  4x
FSAA:  No
Com_maxfps:  125
Max monitor refresh:  140Hz
r_picmip:  1
r_roundimagesdown:  0

Spectating empty map:  FPS drop to 70 in outdoor areas (both) when distant from building.  r_speeds were minimal, so I switched to r_vertexlight 1.  FPS problem disappeared.  Lighting in these areas appears to cause FPS loss on this hardware.

Gameplay:  FPS dropped into the 50-70 FPS range during firefights.  This occured using the non-public beta and .99f.  FPS loss was worse with the beta owing to the particle system still being cgame-side and causing some CPU binding.  Worst loss was around 30 FPS with heavy fighting and Strogg chaingun throwing particles everywhere.

======================

Comparitive Test:  Mksteel
Similar FPS results to above during gameplay.

======================

System 2:
Opteron 175 Dualcore 2.2GHz CPU
2 GB PC3200 DDR SDRAM
GeForce GT 250 with 857 MB video RAM

Test 1:  .99f

Resolution:  800x600
Anisotropic filtering:  No
FSAA:  No
Com_maxfps:  125
Max monitor refresh:  140Hz
r_picmip:  0
r_roundimagesdown:  0

Spectating empty map:  No FPS Loss.
Gameplay:  No FPS Loss.

Test 2:  .99f

Resolution:  800x600
Anisotropic filtering:  8x
FSAA:  4x
Com_maxfps:  125
Max monitor refresh:  140Hz
r_picmip:  0
r_roundimagesdown:  0

Spectating empty map:  No FPS Loss.
Gameplay:  No FPS Loss.

Test 3:  Non-public Beta

Resolution:  1024x768
Anisotropic filtering:  8x
FSAA:  4x
Com_maxfps:  100 (125 FPS not necessary for physics gains in this build)
Max monitor refresh:  100Hz
r_picmip:  0
r_roundimagesdown:  0

Spectating empty map:  No FPS Loss.
Gameplay:  Minimal FPS loss when heavy dlight saturation present.



======================

Conclusion:  FPS loss is about as expected on an older system, and would be less if I turned off anisotropic filtering.  With high-end hardware, FPS loss is limited to Quake 3's inefficient dynamic light handling when a lot of plasma is flying around, but only when using high detail settings like high FSAA and very high Anisotropic Filtering settings.  FPS losses overall are not any worse than some very common quality Q3 maps, and are significantly better than some very graphics-heavy maps like Decidia or Moonstone.  The average gamer's system will have no trouble with this map, and high-end hardware loves it.  Only a very old computer will have any difficulty, but that difficulty exists with other maps and can be adjusted for by utilizing appropriate detail settings.

The only area I saw where there might be some inherent inefficiency is in the lightmap compiling, which may or may not improve based on your compile settings in Radiant.  I don't know if that's possible or not, I'm not a mapper so Boot could better answer that sort of thing.  Map geometry is a non-issue as far as framerate is concerned based on my testing.  :doom_thumb:

Excellent testing, thanks. Ok, that sound like I would expect and is acceptable to me.

If I can figure out a way to make the lightmap have less of an impact without sacrificing quality too much, I'll try it.

I'm going to add some more eye-candy here and there. Outside areas do need work, but I'm not going to add too many transparant brushes there, so it shouldn't make a difference for framerates.

Since it only hit a system that's about 6 revisions backdated on graphics with anisotropic filtering running, I wouldn't worry too much on the lightmap causing FPS loss.  :slippy_thumb:

Righto. I'm only at 10k max r_speeds right now, and that's with entities. So I guess I can add some stuff here and there.

By the way, unrelated: check out this map: industrial (http://www.zfight.com/misc/files/q3/industrial.rar) (40Mbs) or this one: history (http://www.zfight.com/misc/files/q3/history.rar). Absolutely stunning.

That's pretty damned good for the Q3 engine.  I ran around both as Earth just to look around.  I love the terrain usage in History, and the horizontal/vertical aspects of both maps felt very balanced.  I just wish the files weren't so huge.  Maybe once they're out of non-beta stage he'll have bot support for History.  I'd love to see the finished projects.

I don't think that'll happen soon. The "playable" version is called Crescent, which is also a bit less detailed. I have a feeling these two maps are pretty much key pieces in his portfolio, and probably intended as such. If you want to see more of his work, check out these: solar (http://www.zfight.com/misc/files/q3/solar.rar) or crescent (http://lvlworld.com/review.php?id=2048).

I'm making progress with my comparatively simple (:doomed:) map, in the meantime. Maybe I should post new version here, though I haven't toyed with items yet. I really need to work on my thesis this weekend, so I guess I could fix one up and let it rest in the hands of testers for a while. :]

Okay, I've got something new! Not enough changes to post it as "beta2" on q3w, so I'm calling this alpha2.

return to the entryway, alpha2 (http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/tabd2map01/tabd2map01_alpha2.zip)
(9 Mb this time.. shouldn't grow beyond that.. much.. ;])

Gameplay won't really be different, as the items are still the same, but the door timing has changed. Mostly an aesthetics-update.

There's one bug in there that I know about: a small hole that results in HOM next to the stairs outside. Already fixed that, but couldn't be arsed to recompile the whole thing for that.

Visual touches are nice, and I must thank you for not putting a railgun on this one.  I did a "/give all" to see how rail would play, and it made it way too easy to just hang back and camp the halls.

Two questions.  First, did you raise the "mega weapon" spawn at the beginning?  I can still jump up there with com_maxfps 125 equivalent settings.  Second, can the spectator spawn be moved to the chainsaw courtyard instead of the shotty courtyard?  Otherwise, I love the way this is coming along.

Not sure if it got raised or not, but the invisible platform is gone. I wasn't able to jump up there, so I guess I'm doing something wrong.. then again, my trick jumping skills never existed in the first place.

Not being able to get up there (outside of a rocket jump) does add a bit to the map though.. as do the timing changes on the doors. Only thing I see is that going outside to the shotgun still feels kinda wasted, but that's no fault of yours.

Quite a blast to play on.. either in all Doom or mixed games.

I do agree about the spectator spawn tho.. but on the other hand that was discussed before, no? :)

I wasn't able to jump there myself. Mind you, I'm testing with vanilla, mostly.

I really want the platform/end-of-match camera position to be in the big outdoor area. If there's a way to split the spectator spawn from this, let me know, and I'll do so.

Also, this is still the exact item layout as it was in "beta1". I'm going to tinker with a custom item layout after I get the visuals done. Wasn't planning on adding a railgun. Going outside will become a better idea after item changes. Both outdoors areas are probably going to have a powerup-ish (MH/RA or the like) item to lure players all over the map.

Edit: forgot about "pmove_fixed", and this PC needed that for that jump. Shouldn't have to be much higher than this.

I should have mentioned... With the non-public beta you can just set "g_fixed_physics 2" and that'll give you the equivalent of pmove_fixed with any framerate using a listen server.

Testing in .99f will require 125 FPS.  Also, I learned that the 125 FPS behavior is different between a listen server and a dedicated.  You cannot get quite the same height in a listen server as you can when connected in to a dedicated.  Fourier was of tremendous help in tracking down this little oddity in Q3's physics.

Good. I think I have it fixed now. I have some more work to do (both on the map's look and my thesis) but after that I think I can finally try a custom item layout for this one. That should really help make it more fun to play...

Well seeing that it's already fun to play... from a Doomer's perspective, it's a lot more enjoyable even with the original lineup than Map01 is in Doom 2.  I've played DM and 1vs1, and in Doom 2, it's way too easy to just camp the middle hall and spawnfrag everyone with the SSG.  In Gen, you've got some maneuvering room, and spawn protection really helps.  The fights are just as frantic, and a lot of it goes on in that middle hall with bots, but it's a lot more fun, especially when you throw in the other classes.  Even with two BFG's, since there's no BFG ammo spawn you pretty much get only one shot unless you run back into the BFG room, which is dangerous at best since anyone spawning in there is going to be gunning for you and likely have more health.  Slipgate actually has more of an advantage in the hallway with the Thunderbolt and Rocket Launcher spawns where they are.  Strogg has it tough if he doesn't spawn on the BFG/Shotgun/Rocket Launcher platform, but if he can grab the chaingun in the hall he can inflict some serious damage.  Same with the SSG, anyone but Slipgate going for that gun will have some stopping power, and Earth can just demolish everything with the gats.  It's damned near perfect as far as reproducing the kind of gameplay I'd expect to see.  The only downside is with a lot of Doomers come a lot of chainsaw rushes, but that's expected.  Bots are just a bit more suicidal about it in the non-public beta.  With mixed classes, God I love playing this map.  I got up to 300 frags before I realized how long I had been on it.

I did notice that I never spawned nor saw any bots spawn out in the shotgun courtyard;  I only spawned there as spectator.  I know you put some extra spawns in the map, but I didn't know if you intended to put one out there or not.  Doors are working perfect so far.  :doom_thumb:

Edit:  One request on any custom variation of this map.  A grenade launcher would be nice to add some extra variety to the map, but please no rail if possible.

Twas nice to read that you had no trouble getting 300 frags in there without getting bored! :]

There is a player spawn in the shotgun room. I accidentally had it set as "initial" which makes you spawn there the first time. Not a biggie, but that's fixed, as it was kind of weird. I think there are 7 player spawns in all in the map. I might make it 8 ("round" number), but not sure if that's a good idea yet.
Edit:  I realize now that you didn't mean the blue room, but where the boomstick is at. My bad. Intentionally didn't place a spawn point there -- I want that area to be a powerup room, so that would probably be a bad idea. Also, bots might not be able to get out on their own.. :]

I wanted to add a GL myself! It's always fun and more hectic with pills flying. I won't add a railgun unless I happen to think of a really great reason to have it in. I'm thinking of the following setup:

Powerups:
MH at chainsaw platform, YA where it is now, YA in exit room, Powerup(s) in big outside area (probably the non-insane ones, like regen/haste/invis), medikit on top of the lift near the outside-door-button.
Weapons:
SG where it is now in blue room, RL in "secret" room where it is now, GL in starting area near stairs, PG where it is now, LG in "secret" room near exit. I probably don't want a BFG in there, as I want the "normal custom layout" to be sort-of-okay for normal Q3A as well.

Probably lots of ammo on the platforms in the blue room and the outside area, but I'll have to think of that after I got the weapons sorted out.

Okay peeps, big update time.

Here's the latest version:
tabd2map01_alpha3 (http://www.xs4all.nl/~zia/tmp/tabd2map01/tabd2map01_alpha3.zip)

Optional music pk3 to add for extra nostalgia value:
tabd2map01_music (http://www.xs4all.nl/~zia/tmp/tabd2map01/tabd2map01_music.zip)

New in this is: still more aesthetics tweaks. Map is a bit heavier on the GPU now, but should still be well under the acceptable limits. Some bugs and annoyances were fixed aswell. Bots can now easily get to the PG, for instance.
Added a funky trick with the door-button to access the outside area; it plays a doomy sound alerts players globally.

Biggest update is the item layout change. This will probably need quite a bit of testing. Playing it vs. bots is ok so far, but they're too dumb for the tricky parts of the map. Bots don't go for buttons (deliberately, anyway) and they won't go outside at all, nor do I expect they will ever weapon-jump to get to the megahealth. For any testing, keep in mind that I want this to play well in normal Q3 too -- it shouldn't just be a Generations-only map.

The old layout is in there too: you can load that one up with "tabd2map01_pure".

Note that this version is not compiled with the best lighting settings. It will eventually look exactly like the "purist" version, which is compiled for finalized lighting.

There's a problem with the platforms in the blue room.  When the platforms move upward back upward, the items explode, Q2-style.  Somehow the mover code is detecting them as blocking the mover.  This happens in Generations but not in normal Q3.  It could be the number of items up there.  Are the four platforms considered one mover, or are they four separate movers?  If it's a single mover the code only allows so many items to be pushed at once before it considers the mover to be blocked and does a killbox on what's blocking it.  Splitting the platforms into four separate mover entities would probably fix that.  If they are four individual movers, then maybe try recompiling the map with one item per plat and see what happens.  The lift in the plasma gun room does not have this problem.

I'll check the mover code and see if I can exempt level-spawned gettable things from blocking interactions, but I can't do much about mover behavior in .99f.

The music is a nice touch, but pressing the button in the exit room causes a bad effect with the music present.  The action on the lift switch for the courtyard door is a nice touch.  Lighting looks damned good, and I like the new detail added to the map.  I'll frag through some bots to see how it plays.

Regarding the "balanced" version of the map... the arrangement feels a little weird.  It feels more like a Tourney arrangement than a standard FFA.  I'll have to play it a bit more to get used to it and figure out what's right and what might not be.  I mainly wanted to get the issue with the exploding items posted.  I do miss having a BFG on the map.

That's weird.. I run the map in Gen .99f (it's really the only way I even play q3 any more) and I didn't see any exploding items on those platforms. I made it a point to watch them numerous times.. picking up the items and letting them respawn before the plats raised.. just leaving them there for the duration.. etc.

The added tweaks to the map all look great, but I can't say much about the new item layout yet. Then again, I doubt I'll be able to give any reliable feedback anyway since I'm no good with such things.

From what I've played so far, both versions of the map play great.. but I'll agree with Pho on one thing and say that having a BFG in the pure version does kinda spoil you. :)

I tried it in .99f and the non-public version, and the items explode every time the platforms in the blue room raise back up.  If I pick up the items or leave them on the platforms, if I'm in or out of the room, it doesn't matter.  They go boom, and that's that - they're killed from the level until a map_restart.  The only way I can get them to stay put is playing vanilla Q3.

Edit:  I found and fixed the problem.  It was a code bug in Generations.  I missed changing two instances of origin checking in the mover function.  Plats work now.  I'll have to re-release the server patch it seems, but that will have to wait until after the host transition. :wall:

BFG is going to stay out, I'm afraid. If I make another version, like a Generations-balanced item layout, then it'll certainly be back in. But then, the purist version is fun with Generations already (everything seems to be! :)).

Code bug is bad, but not all bad for me, I guess. No changes necessary, then?

And Mink, any feedback on the items helps -- I talked to Alucard yesterday and he didn't think it a bad idea to load up a version of the map to the euro server and play it for a couple of rounds. The more that join in, the merrier, and the better it's tested. Just pay attention to what annoys you in play. Ofcourse, it may be a better idea to load it up on a Pho's server. All fine with me ofcourse.

Nothing really annoys me about the map and item layout. Both versions offer a similar, yet unique experience.. but the custom layout is starting to grow on me.

Testing with other people would probably be a lot better though, I agree.

Map is now available on Phoenix's Generations Server.  Just /callvote map tabd2map01 for the balanced version, and /callvote map tabd2map01_pure for the purist version.

So far the what really seems to bug me on the non-pure version is the item arrangement in and around the room that would normally have the shotgun, rocket launcher, and BFG.  The mega health being up there in a spawn area means someone's going to spawn with a lot of health and not much for a weapon, or get a heavily-armed player in their face looking for a powerful item.  Does the map really even need the megahealth?  We have a regen that spawns near the red armor, and there's plenty of health packs floating around.  It seems counter-intuitive to place it there if players are going to spawn in there.

Some suggestions for alteration in that area... I'd remove the 50 health from the chainsaw spawn point and replace that with a bullet box.  Swap the shotgun ammo on the lower BFG spawn with a 25 point health pack, same with the box of bullets, and replace the megahealth with either a shotgun or rocket launcher weapon, preferably a rocket launcher.  I think the grenade launcher should be moved to the chaingun's original spawn and the 25 point healthpack in that corner nixed.  This arrangement would do a few things.  First, it would give an alternative to the hallway spawn as the only rocket launcher on the map.  Someone spawning on the ledge in the former-BFG-room will have more of a fighting chance to get out.  Second, the healthpacks being on the lower floor will not make the room such a deathtrap to enter back into, and will give more impetus for players in the hallway to enter back into the room.  It also gives you an escape from the hall other than ducking into the Blue Room.  That, combined with the spawn having a rocket launcher, will make for more encounters in that room.  Putting the GL in the hall where the chaingun would normally be will give someone fighting in the hall some kind if gun if stuck between the big spawn room and the blue room, and I think more grenade action will be seen spawning it there.  Right now, having it on the stairs it doesn't get as much action as it could.  I know with the Thunderbolt spawning there in the pure version it has a huge impact on hallway fights.  I also would reduce the timer on the plats in the blue room to 1 minute or 30 seconds.  Two minutes just seems a bit long.  I think shortening the timer would add some variety to the action in that room.

Other than that, the item arrangement on the map is good.  The exit area is about perfect.  Moving the LG into the exit room makes it dangerous to go for, but also rewarding, the yellow armor is a plus in that secret door, and having the red armor outside with the regen makes the outdoors a powerful area but also dangerous to go after as everyone is going to hear that switch thrown and know what you're doing.  Gameplay from the blue room into the exit room is damned nice once I got used to the item placement.  Regarding the lack of BFG... For normal Q3 it makes sense to leave it out.  Normal Gen play, Earthers can still bring a BFG into play by dying with dualgats out, so I'm fine with a BFG not spawning on the map once I got everything into context.

I have some ideas for a "tourney" version of the item placement.  The way you have the entry room arranged right now are more in line with what I'd expect to see in a tourney map.  In fact, in a tourney version I'd keep players from spawning on the MH ledge at all.  A grenade, rocket, or trick-jump would be required to get the MH, and being a blind pocket it's dangerous to go after in a 1 vs 1, so it would be perfect arranged like that.  I'd thin out the items on the ledges in the blue room, maybe putting only two shards on each box, so ammo is more scarce in there.  I'd also move the LG to the regen/haste spawn so you have to go outdoors to get it.  I'd also kill the yellow armor in the secret door, replacing it with something like lightning ammo, restore the plasma gun to its normal spot and put a plasma ammo box on the pad where the lightning ammo currently rests.  The red armor spawn is fine where it is, as it's a counter to the MH.

Visually I haven't bugchecked anything, but I love the appearance of the map.  The pure version is about perfect.  No complaints, lighting is lovely, and it's a blast to play.  :doom_thumb:

Alpha 4 available here:
tabd2map01_alpha4 (http://www.xs4all.nl/~zia/tmp/tabd2map01/tabd2map01_alpha4.zip)

Very slightly updated version for Q3W feedback, here:
tabd2map01_beta2 (http://www.xs4all.nl/~zia/tmp/tabd2map01/tabd2map01_beta2.zip)

Beta2 link is broken.

Damn it ate my post, so again.

Timers for gates and "lift" feels good, but:
With 6 random (2x E, D, A)bots  there is too many rockets in air, I would change starter area RL for invis/lost soul randomly swapping, and box of shells and grenades instead of bullets and rockets. That would give most of classes respawning there single shoty and/or handgrenade to deal with guy searching for powerup.

In blue room with lifts, YA and Double barrel sg, could use small box of health opposite corner to secret, as I felt helpless running away low on hp form hallway massacre.
And a small box of plasma, somewhere between GL and "secret RL" or it's just my feeling getting 20 doom cells from blue room not much to actually hit dodging guy(bot).

And for RA outdoors, powerup could have timer decreased, as for little over 20 minutes of game i felt disappointed not seeing it with the those bullets I got hit, the way to and from opening switch, and that box of shells could be there too, as Phoenix mentioned in now non existing post.

And thats from me so far.  :doom_thumb:

Six bots plus one live player is rather heavy on people.  You do realize this map was originally a 1 vs 1 and max 4 player DM for Doom 2, right?  It's not meant for a super large player load.  Try playing with a few less bots, maybe 3-4 and see how it feels.

And yes, link is broken.

Link fixed.

Okay, had another 25 minutes with 3 bots this time Earth Doom Strogg this time, and I had similar feeling.

Staring area as only close place with health boxes, has most certainly low health problem solved with rocket in the face. And thats the only reason to get there.
From respawning point of view with only 4 players, you just get RL jump off and almost unnoticed and undamaged you get GL, or RL in case of Earth and Doom.
 So i'm still up for invis/soul with shells and grenades there, as little counter to RA reg/haste, and one small healthbox in blue/lift room.

 Cells/Big nail box let's say at center of 5point health packs (forgot their name) in front of secret RL, wouldn't ruin much.

Found a bug.  There's a warning that prints at the beginning of level load:


It's way up in the top of the text.  Easiest way to find it is to do a /condump filename.txt and look at the console dump.  This happens in VQ3 as well as Generations.  The warning message in the source code says it's something that should "never happen".  Apparently it has to do with generating the .bsp tree from patches.  It's producing a value of "-1" for the gridplanes.  This seems to have been there since alpha1.  Sorry I missed it before.

Aye, I know about this. It is treated by experienced mappers as "not a real problem". I have no idea how to fix it, other than by a long and annoying process of elimination for all the brushes/patches in the map. Doesn't seem to affect anything, so I've just decided to live with it.

Good to know it's not anything serious.  :doom_thumb:

Got me some more feedback:


Any thoughts on these points here?

Obviously I'm not going to change the structure of the map (too much, anyway).
Some of the points in the list seem like a pretty good idea to me. Least I can do is whip up yet another alpha and see how it compares in gameplay.

His "radical" ideas are actually somewhat similar to the overall flow of Dwango5Map01 (Doom 2 remix map, heavily overplayed on Zdaemon), without the 5 million Combat Shotguns scattered through the level.  Would be interesting to see as a remix at some point perhaps.  Focusing on the list... here's my highly opinionated response.  ;)

I don't really have a problem with a reduced health amount in the RL room at the end of the hall.  Having it on the side walls, to me, makes sense because you'll duck there to avoid fire anyway.  Shouldn't it be a bit hazardous to go for the powerful guns?  I think if anything just adding two more 5 point health spheres would be enough so that there's 3 per side.  Upping the total health available to 70 health is too much I think.

I think he's referring to the LG and PG respectively.  The placement felt a little odd at first, but honestly, in that room the health is of benefit when you're getting shot by machinegun-level weapons and are retreating to get a better gun.  If you need the big health, it's available on the lift.  I can't think of any other spots where health is close to the weaponry.  As for putting health in the main corridors, that just doesn't feel right to me.  That's where most of the fragging is going to take place and having the health there just seems kind of pointless.  You want something to draw players into the rooms and move the fights around.  Corridors on a lot of maps I've seen are rarely item heavy unless it's low-point items like shards or small point healths, but since the corridors are a central focal point of this map as opposed to just connections between more important areas, I think they're better off being more spartan.

That's something I had thought about, but that blue room has always been the primary shotgun spawn on the map.  Grenades aren't as useful in big wide rooms, either.  I know this is the non-pure version, but the shotty just feels better staying put, especially when you consider that for Doom and Earth that's a rocket launcher.  I think that would completely screw up the flow of the map.

The bad thing about spawning outdoors is the doorway is a chokepoint, and you have weapons in the room you're going to have to run into.  You'll be facing opponents with a spawn-level weapon that are probably toting a plasma gun or lightning gun that are looking for the red armor.  Unless a weapon spawn is placed outside, that seems like a "bad luck" place to spawn.  You might get the red armor only to get plastered trying to get into the building to grab a weapon.  If player spawns were to go out there, I would want to see something like a shotgun out there as well.  It would have to be a double-barreled shotgun and not a "boomstick" since this version needs to be VQ3 compatible.  I think spawning outside will cut down on the switch usage a lot though, and right now that's part of the map's gimmick, especially with the global switch noise.  That sound alone will guarantee outdoor fights when real players are in the mix and not just bots.  Why destroy that?

I completely disagree here.  Railgun would ruin the map, especially placing a rail next to red armor and a powerup.  That's handing the best players on the map a huge advantage, and the average Quaker is going to get their ass handed to them once the top dog gets that combo - especially if player spawns were placed outside... and really, does every Q3 map have to have a railgun?

The regen and RA is not useless as it is, either.  Real players will go for them, and as for bots, they don't go for them, but I've had no trouble getting past them and out there to get those items.  Once acquired, you can dish out a hell of a lot of damage, especially Earth or Arena grabbing the yellow armor in the closet as well.  Dual gats with 150 armor + regen and a flamethrower for backup is a force to be reckoned with.  In addition, for a 1 vs 1 match, controlling items is a key part of the game.  Making powerful items tricky to get helps balance out the tank/spawnkill-dominate factor by putting an element of danger.  The window plus the chokepoint door means you have cost vs benefit to think of.  As for Slipgate, well, depends on the player, like any class.  I don't think Slipgaters will destroy the ability to get out there and grab the armor.  I think more that they'll try to do so themselves.

Nobody will ever use the lift then.  Do we just want easy access to powerful items?  If the door must stay open, then there needs to be some reason to go up the lift other than going for the switch, but again, you lose that element of the map.

Again, why?  There are other weapons to get to, that's meant to be a one-way spawn, otherwise it's back to removing the player spawn and put MH or something up there and/or getting spawnkilled and pissed off.

Aesthetically I'm not sure this would work.  The area looks nice as it is, and feels balanced out for the plasma gun spawning there.  Besides, you can actually jump up to the window ledge without any trouble.  Reachability isn't the issue, I think it's just a matter of taste.

It looks fine to me the way it is.  Right now the stones emphasize the item placement as opposed to being just decoration.  They draw visual attention to the item spawns.  I think this is a matter of taste for Tabby's discretion, but personally I think sometimes less is better.

I turned up my brightness a bit and it helped, but the light could be upped in those rooms about 10% or so I think.  It is pretty dark.

Damned right, it looks great in there.  Agree 100% there.

Edit:  I should also add that I'm looking at this from the perspective of comparing gameplay of a balanced version of the map vs the original, with wanting to keep the overall flow of the original map intact.  I'm assuming a balanced version is just a toned-down version of the original as far as intent goes toward gameplay as opposed to a radical redesign.  I'm always going to err on the side of caution regarding radical changes when a remake of a classic map is involved.  It's the same approach I take with suggestions regarding changes to Gen - I'm going to put the bar damned high for convincing me why I should change something that was part of the original game.  Map01 is to Doom like Q2DM1 is to Quake 2.  I'm not sure what Aeon's perspective is as I don't know his gaming experience.  I'm not saying his points are invalid, just how I see them in regards to a classic map vs a completely new, completely original level.

Leaving the door open is actually something I thought about suggesting before, even back when I first played the map. I never said anything about it, because I also knew it would make the lift just about useless.. save for the health on top of it.. but actually going up the lift wouldn't be required at all. Maybe a personal teleporter or medkit?

I also agree that a railgun would ruin the map, especially if placed outside like was suggested.. but I also agree that going out there feels somewhat wasted. Getting the items is a nice bonus, but you have to pull away from the main battle area somewhat to go out there.

The rest, I pretty much agree with Pho.

Keep in mind, I still have yet to play with any actual players.. so I'm still chewing on the bots. I imagine, players might actually go for the items outside, and might actually care when you push the button.. perhaps even making a b-line to ninja the items after it gets pressed. :)


EDIT: Remembered this was supposed to work in vanilla Q3A, so adjusted the item names a bit. ;o

Ok. Thanks.

I think AEon is coming from a Q3A/CPMA-type view on gaming. He wants quick action, easily accessible items and weapons, no gimmicks or anything that may hinder ordinary game dynamics. He seems to be a fan of e1m1, but not of map01, so probably not so much of a doom II player. He's very good at what he does; that is, his maps are well received by those who enjoy Q3 in that same way.

Me, I kind of like gimmicks and tricks. When there's a good reason to, nice ways to alter the normal function of Q3 DM are welcome. I'm thinking of Q2DM3's lava tunnel, Q3DM10's health generator, Q3DM11's grenade trigger, et cetera. The way the buttons work in my map is hopefully something comparable to those additions to normal gameplay.


Outside area - open door
I really wanted to keep it open (or let the switch work for 10 minutes or so) from the start, early in the process of making the map. But especially after adding the switch heads-up sound, I think it's one of the cooler features. I really want to keep this myself, now.
Logically, I will not add a player spawn here. If it is to be a sealed room, just allowing lucky players to spawn in it defeats the purpose.

Outside area - additions
I want to try adding a shotgun outdoors, and that would be best served by an added bit of stonework. I don't want walls or anything in there, it should be a dangerously open area that can be assaulted from the window if necessary. If anywhere, I think the SG should be added to the area east of the doorway, so that players will have to decide whether to go for the powerup, the armor, or the weapon first.



Health / Weapons
I will keep the health next to the LG - it is an unappetizing room to run into just to get a gun. Even for classes that need the LG. I have added more health to the PG room though, in nooks and crannies.

I'm keeping the SG/GL where they are. Makes sense to keep 'm this way to me.


Other changes
Beginning platform will remain as it is.

I have added a step to the staircase before the window, though. I don't think it looks all that different. I'll let you guys see how it looks/works in the next release. I'm ok with it.

Lighting has been upped considerably in the two mentioned rooms.

I'll fix up a new version and post it in here.

Okay, new non-pure version in here:
tabd2map01_alpha5.zip (http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/tabd2map01/tabd2map01_alpha5.zip)

Got a look at it.  Here's a rundown of thoughts on the changes.

The shotgun placement outside feels just a tad odd at present.  It could be that it's just because it's floating over bare grass, but I think it might be better back by where the red armor is, or else, tucked up a little closer to the building, the latter especially if some kind of spawn platform is built under it.  For now, it just feels like it's floating in the middle of nowhere, which, if it's just an item placement test, is understandable.  It is nice having a gun out there again, though I still think it would be better by the armor, especially with the spawn point near that door.  The main downside to the shotgun placement being where it is, and this is why I'm thinking it might be better by the armor, is if you're a new spawn you're going to have to get a gun, and you can get pinned in that corner by someone chasing out the door, otherwise you'll go for the armor and not have a gun.  As for armed players going outside for the armor, I found if I had a weapon already, I almost always ignored the shotgun because it was out of the way in favor of returning inside to get some frags.

The health and shard placement in the blue room I'm kind of mixed on.  It's nice having them accessible, but they get grabbed so often that they're rarely of use.  It feels like they're too close to the door where there's a lot of fighting going on.  It's kind of a plus and minus.  You can duck in and grab them, but the back of the room isn't getting much action this way.  When they were on the crates they were not gone as much.  I do like having the crates as "ammo only" though, they feel more defined that way.  Maybe if 5 point healths were placed back by the armor where the 25 point health packs normally spawn it might balance things out for that room health-wise.

I like the plasma ammo being up on top of the lift!  It feels like there's more of a reason than just to hit the switch to go up.  Shotgun ammo in that room where the plasma ammo used to be is good, I like that.  Health placement in the big window room feels good as well.  Having those 25 point globes where they are makes the room less of a death trap.  Thinking about it, before you only had the lift, and the exit switch room to go to for serious health, making it pretty perilous.  That's a good add I think, and taking the 5 point globes away from the plasma gun doesn't seem to hurt anything.

The window step I find myself liking.  In fact, I think it could probably benefit the "pure" version of the map as well.  The lighting tweak is nice, and I also think the "pure" version could benefit from the lighting tweak if you haven't done so already.

Did you add some player spawns?  I found a few times I had thrown the switch to get outside, and I spawned near the door while it was still open.  If that's a new spawn, I like it.  It adds some variety to the access to the outside.  You might hit the switch only to have someone else spawn and run out and grab your stuff, which means the window can turn into a revenge tool.  With the shotgun outside it also gives that person a chance to duck out the door and avoid getting plasmatized or electrocuted right off the bat while grabbing a weapon - unless of course the door is closed, and then you better head to the plasma or lightning gun pretty quick.  I definitely like the "dammit!" factor of having that spawn there for anyone hitting the switch to potentially lose their stuff.

I think any new player spawns you added could benefit the pure map as well as the aforementioned window and lighting tweaks.  Overall, changes feel like they're positive.

Oh yes, I moved that spawn closer to the door because it would be closer to the PG, actually. It felt odd to have only one of the spawns in the brown room close to a weapon -- kind of making luck too big a factor there. The only other tweak to spawns is in the blue room: I added one, and moved the other away from the SG a bit. Now the total is 8 spawns, which makes more sense to me.

I didn't want to put too much of an effort of making a shotgun pedestal until I got feedback on placement. Now I see that this may have actually been a disadvantage to it.. :] I think I'll remove the small health items and place the shotgun where they are now. I don't think it makes sense to put the shotgun actually right next to the armor.

I'm kind of unsure about the shards/health in the blue room myself, too. I just removed them from the platforms and shoved them in the emptiest place of that room. I think I'd rather remove items than place them next to the armor, since that seems to make that small room unnecessarily important.
Still, between the starting room and the brown room, it looks like there is too little health in that general area. Maybe I should just place 25 health packs in the corners of the blue room? At least they won't be picked up by people spawning there..


I will make the geometry/lighting changes to the pure version aswell, by the way. I planned to do so from the start, but since I need to swap all the items around to do so, I want to wait until I'm sure the changes will stick. As for the lighting, could it benefit from being a little darker or a little brighter still? Or is it fine the way it is?

Oh, and one last thing: I made the lift to the outdoors-button wait for only 1.5 seconds before moving back up. Seems to work better, but maybe it should have an even shorter wait? It's not like you need time to get to it after pressing the lift-button...

The wait on the lift feels great in the current build, like just the right amount of time.  It did feel a hair long before.  I wouldn't shorten it any further.

Placing shotgun where the health globes are outside sounds like a good plan.  It's in the right area but not right on the armor.  It also puts more emphasis on the regen for health outside, and if the regen isn't there, you have to take some licks while fighting out there.  Speaking of regen... I forgot to mention, I think the timer on the powerup spawn feels too long.  I'm not sure what you have it set at (2 min?) but it feels like it should be cut down maybe to half that.

Two 25 healths in the blue room sound good since they can't be spawn-grabbed.  :doom_thumb:

I think the overall level lighting is good, but the two brown rooms need maybe an additional 5% brightness tweak at most.  The lighting is better than it was, but still a bit dim.

Hmm. Spawn timer is at four minutes. I may cut that down to two or three minutes. I don't want to make the map too powerup-centered, though. The combination of a powerup + RA is pretty powerful, and even the RA by itself is a good reason to go for the switch, I think...

Fixing up a new version...

Well looks like I was not the only one to feel about health at blue room, and regen time. :P
Too bad I cant map to see the other idea feels like.

Hehe, that's the advantage of being the actual mapper - you get the last word! You need to work pretty hard for it, but it pays off in the end.. ;]

Pre-final release:
tabd2map01_alpha6 (http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/tabd2map01/tabd2map01_alpha6.zip)

I found two minor glitches on the map doing a bug check sweep:

http://www.wireheadstudios.org/phoenix/editing/shot0401.jpg
This shows z-fighting along those three sections.  It occurs on the sections facing the camera and along the top edge.  I was only able to find this using r_fullbright 1.

http://www.wireheadstudios.org/phoenix/editing/shot0402.jpg
The wall textures here are misaligned in the corners.

The only question I have item-wise is regarding the change of the rocket box at the initial spawn area to a grenade box.  It does remove the only rocket ammo on the level, and Slipgate still gets rockets while Strogg and Earth do not.  That gives a rocket count for 5 for Earth and Strogg, 6 for Doom, and 10 for Slipgate and Arena when spawning there.  I think I prefer the rocket box since there's a grenade box in the blue room, but I can live with either one.

The 25 point healths in the Blue room work much better than the 5 pointers and shards.

Lighting looks good through the darker rooms, and I love the shotgun placement outside.  It works very well.

Timing on the powerup spawn feels perfect.

I did notice the door up on the lift never closes now.  I didn't know if that was intentional or not.

Edit:  I did some playtesting in normal Q3 as well as Gen.  In normal Q3, the map feels very good in the balanced version.  I even had two opportunities to use the big window.  First was I threw the switch, and Sarge managed to run outside and grab my stuff, so I had a "dammit!" moment.  I stood up on the window ledge and shot him with the plasma gun.  I didn't do enough damage to drop him and I got nailed by someone in the hall, but I was able to hit him with about 8 plasma rounds.  The second time it was Ranger who grabbed my stuff.  I ran outside and hit him twice with the gauntlet while I had about 30 health, and he had a rocket launcher.  He went in through the door and I narrowly missed a rocket to the face.  I lobbed 3 grenades up through the window and one found it's mark.  Ranger gibbed rather nicely.   

 :doom_thumb:

Good, good!  :doomed:

Glitches fixed.

Door near lift is intentionally open for a long time. It's the most annoying door in the map, and I guess camping near the button should be discouraged.

Final version packed up and available here:
tabd2map01 final (http://www.tabun.nl/dl/tabd2map01.zip)

I've sent it off to LvL aswell. That should help it (and Generations..) get some more publicity. :]

Map has been added to Phoenix's Generations Server (http://www.wireheadstudios.org/generations/servers.php?viewServer=71.79.29.239:27967) and is now part of the standard rotation.

Say, if anyone feels like giving a good (but not biased!) review of my entryway remake, head on over the LvL map queue (http://www.lvlworld.com/#c=m1&d=5%20Sep%202009&m=All&p=queue) and review it (and perhaps some other maps). Looks like few people still review maps there..

Unfortunately I can't review it myself as that would certainly be considered biased (and rightly so), so if anyone who is not a WHS team member wants to take a stab at it?

I might take a stab at reviewing other maps (higher) in that list, myself. That'll help too. :]
I'm just not so good at reviewing for gameplay, I guess.

 :!: Tab, I've run across some crash problems on your map.  It involves my test server, so I'll send the details via PM.

Haven't worked out the reason why the pure version crashes yet, but Pho's debugging has been a great help -- I feel we can tackle that bug soon.

Actually posted because tabd2map01 (http://www.lvlworld.com/#&i=2062) is now released on LvLworld (http://www.lvlworld.com/):

I'm glad Tig notes the differences in released versions, and I'd like to smack fKd for his review.  F'in Q3 purist...

Hehe. He says he was a "fan" of the DII map, and does not think it is done justice by me. I beg to differ. I don't care if some people don't like it, but at least do your homework before submitting a negative review..

Quoting fKd on Lvlworld in the comments:

A 9 is the average between 9 for geometry and 4 for gameplay? Sounds like that should be a 6.5. Anyway, it seems he's changed his mind on my previous map, after seeing my work on an upcoming one. Odd. Maybe just was prejudiced and seeing more of my stuff fixed that?

Review was not as bad as it looked, anyway. ;]

Well... remember what I said about being stuck in a rut?  I don't know fKd's game experience, but I think sometimes the same patterns get used for movement flow and there tends to be a bit of a kneejerk reaction when something different from the norm is introduced.  That could have been a case of initial shock value and then having the map grow on him.

Nobody got my "purist" joke?  :surprise:

Over on this side of things, during a recent Gen play session with bots.. I decided to load up Entryway for some fast fragging action. I went outside, and to my surprise I saw this (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/Vaeladven/Quake3/shot0031.jpg)!

After taking the screenie, I quit and loaded the map in vanilla Q3 and saw them there as well. Is there anything I could have possibly changed that would make them show up? They didn't show up for me before, so I can only assume that I've changed something somewhere.. and other than updating my video drivers since running the map before, I can't think of anything.

It's a "clamping" error (or non-clamping, not too familiar with the terminology), meaning that the sides of the skybox "bleed" blackness. Nothing can be done on the mapping side of things to fix this, it's a driver issue. Seems to be unfixable with ATI cards (though ioQuake has solved it engine-side), but a simple NVidia driver setting can fix it. I wouldn't know how it can change for you without explicitly adjusting settings, drivers or even videocards...

Ahhh, gotcha. Guess updating my NVidia drivers changed that setting. Thanks. :)

The setting is "Conformant Texture Clamp".  Set it to "off" and the lines vanish.

One of those things I'll get around to fixing in Gen at some point is the ioquake3 fix for this.  Can't do much for vanilla Q3 and ATI cards.

How`s it going with the Strogg map Tab, any progress, or is it shelved ?.

That's shelved for now, and indefinately. I don't have the time to move on to the next mapping project yet, and even if I did, I'd prefer to do something much better than that (I'd probably need to redo all of the textures, and all of the brushwork anyway...).