Wirehead Studios

So i've uploaded a very "early" beta of my new q1dm3 remake
The map is far from done so you will prolly find a few bugs, also there aint a single clip brush in the map so you  may get stucked into details or weapons might explode, bounce quite odd.

I know about the curve cracking in the centeral area, i dont know why it cracks but i'll work on it.

This is mostly a test for you to run around and see what i've created so far, feedback regarding design or what could get improved is very welcome.

Here's the link and as always..beware of swedish comercial! :)
http://hem.passagen.se/macleod2/quake3/maps/beta/req1dm3v2_beta.htm

type /map req1dm3v2_b1 in gen/q3 console to load the map

Download commencing!

Uh i forgot to tell that there are no arena file included so you need to type /map req1dm3v2_b1

So far I like the visual style, and some of the details, like the stepped platforms going up to the red armor, are a nice touch.  The weapons look faithful to the original level.  I haven't checked out ammo, health, etc, but running around as Arena I did not encounter any situation where I had no weapon for an ammo box that I found, and vice-versa.  The machinegun spawn might seem superfluous to some, but it will have a definite use for Oldschool mode.  The overall level layout and texturing I like very much.  This is a tremendous improvement on our current version visually and geometry-wise.  I did not suffer any visual slowdowns on this system.  I'll have to test my old system but so far so good framerate-wise.

The only problem I'm having is that the map overall appears very dark.  It's very difficult to see in some areas.  I'm not sure if it's just my gamma settings, but it looks like the ambient light level needs about a 20% increase, and the outdoor area with the invulnerability was very much brighter in the original.  I don't think it needs to be Q1's superbright dayglow level, but it should be at least as bright as the center room's megahealth floor.

As a newly convinced to q1, I must say similar to Pho. It look and feel like refreshed original.  :slippy_thumb:

And generally I like that darkness in there :ninja: but some places could be brightened, like inter of maze with Super Nailgun, walls around quad and ring of shadows, you just cant see any item near that walls. Apart from that and a stopping a bit, when heading away from Mega room sticking close to wall.  :P

It has great feeling.
 As for 15 min of Slipgate bot match ammo wasn't a problem. 8)

I haven't tested bots yet.  I suppose I'll need to do that.  :P

Edit:  Just tested with the bots.  They like to swim.  A lot.  It seemed that with 5 bots on the server it was just a big pool party.  I don't know what it is with Q3 bots liking water so much.

aright i'll go increase the lights abit. yeah for some reason bots is very attracted to water and i friggin hate it so once i start adding clip brushes n stuff im gonna try to seal of the water abit (if possible) which will be abit harder on this map..unless you pho, wants to fix the bot code abit? ;)

I do intend to fix the bot code at some point, hopefully.  Water is not a class-specific behavior so I'll see if there's some kind of sanity check for fluids I can put in there.

So i need some more ppls to test this..on my setup i rly dont have that much of problems with the map beeing to dark as pho seems to have, Of cuz there are some areas that needs increased light but overall lightning is ok for me atleast..
Mind that the map is designed to be abit dark and not daybright like the normal q3 maps.
Give me some feedback please! Also include some screenshots on areas that feels way to dark.

Cheers

Dang, sorry Boots, haven't had a look yet. I'm going to stroll around in it today and do my usual screenshot-assisted critique routine!

Had a few blasts on this map during the week and so far I like what I see. Plus it's nice to see those hi-res Slippy base textures being used - Q3 as a whole is a bit short on Slippy base maps.

For the record, I'd just like to say that I've played numerous DM3 remakes and the bots have always made a beeline for the water.

As for the map being too dark, I keep r_overbrightbits set to 0 and I don't have any real issues apart from the crate maze which could be increased just a touch. Other than that, this is the sort of remake I love, dark, detailed, but still very recognizable. Keep it up! :slippy_thumb:

Looking good so far, Boots! Overall very slipgatish, just like it should.
I especially love the sections of brown piping -- looks like a great theme, as well as a true-to-QW-style improvement on the looks of the map. Basic usage of textures works fine for a Slipgate map, and really ads to the feeling of nostalgia here.

The map is rather dark on my system, in comparison with other Gens/Q3A maps. Looks like the brightness of the outdoor areas would be about right for indoors areas..

I've made a batch of screenshots to accompany the remarks below (screenshots are indicated by [####], referring to shot####.jpg, ofcourse).

You can find the screenshots here: http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/req1dm3v2_b1/


a. [0000] The wall looks a bit thin here, not quite like it feels it should in this kind of building. I always pictured slipgate walls as being more on the massive/broad side. Texture above the window looks a bit repetitive.

b. [0001] This decorative effect, especially the gap, looks kind of weird. Walking around the room, I first got the feeling there were some brush errors, or you forgot to match up the brushes to the edges. Personally, I'm not a fan of it, especially in the areas where the walkway(s) meet up with solid floors (center of the screenshot). Also, note the texture misalignment -- textures are aligned on the higher level, not on the lower walkway (at water level).

c. [0002] This doorway's brushwork, as well as the gray texture chosen, looks out of place. It's a bit weird, but neat, but looks more like something you'd find in the more artsy kind of Vanilla Q3A level (I feel it would fit Q3DM10, for instance). It also stands out, not matching any of the other doorways on the map.

d. [0003] Shape, but mostly texturing, of this skylight is rather bland/boring. Texture used as an edge might look very good, but here it's just too repetitive.

e. [0004] Texture doesn't really match up. Same crit as (d.), since it is a bit repetitive here, too.

f. [0006] Missing teleport texture in VQ3A. Must admit not having checked this in Gens, and maybe this is a known issue -- or not an issue at all.

g. [0007] and [0008] Unclipped light fixtures, near the machinegun pickup.

h. [0009] Beautiful decorative floorwork. Alas, I don't think it works for the QW theme -- like the doorway mentioned above, it looks more like something that would appear in a techy vanilla Q3A map. I think it's especially the (too) bright green slime and reflective glasswork that makes me think it out of place here.

i. [0010] This walkway looks nice, but again, too techy for Quakeworld, at least to my tastes. It's also makes for a huge hit on framerates, but I'll get back on that. It also feels like the design is too elaborate/finnicky for such narrow walkways.

j. [0011] This doorway, as well as the walkway directly behind it, are rather narrow/cramped. Q3A needs a bit wider doorways for proper play. I remember the walkway in v1 of your remake of this map, and it was nice and roomy there.

k. [0012] I like the grating and the pipes here. The bright green slime, however, looks like it doesn't belong in this type of map, and clashes too much with the subdued brown/beige of the map/QW.

l. [0015] This doorway is also a bit narrow/cramped. Quite annoying when you need to get through it in a hurry, let alone in an explosive firefight.

m. [0016] Textures don't seem to match up on this hill. I also think it would look a lot better if the hill were made from curve patches, rather than angled brushes..

n. [0019] This skeleton is floating, not properly touching the floor. Skeleton & skull are a very nice touch here, by the way.

o. [0020] Projectiles &cetera are not stopped by the glass. Needs some weaponclipping.

p. [0021] Goes for pretty much all plats: no mechanism visible or in place, no rails or support for the lift present. I assume this is part of the map's "beta" status, but better safe & overcomplete, than sorry.

q. [0022] The "warning stripes" texture looks very much out of place. A simple but stern desaturation in PS would help here, I think. The texture is also misaligned at all edges.

r. [0023] Texture looks a bit bland/repetitive here, behind the plat.

s. [0026] Comparatively big boo-boo, visually and for actual play: you can rocketjump up on the roof here, but there's no textures. It's also a bit too convenient to be able to secretly camp for the powerups, here.


x. The following screenshots show situations where clipping brushes are required (I assume this beta does not have (any) clipping done, but I've included this just to be safe): 0005 (goes for entire hallway), 0012, 0013 (this is in the tech-area beneath the plasmagun "crates" -- it doesn't look like there's anything to bump into, but you do, here), 0014 (entire hallway next to machinegun pickup/RA needs lots of clipping), 0017, 0018 (you can get stuck underneath the ramp near the Invul), 0024, 0025 (doorway near RL).
All these situations are "horizontal" clipping situations.

y. There are the usual "vertical" clipping problems too: you step on/off stuff (decorations, mostly) in an annoying way, just like in the first few versions of the ReQ2DM2 RL walkway. This happens at: 0009 and 0010.

z. Finally, there's one area in the map that's quite a bit too hard on the graphics processor. It's (around) the RA room that the amount of drawn verts/tris skyrocket: [0027] shows 13k verts from the hallway (still somewhat acceptable), [0028] shows similar, from one corner of the room, [0029] shows where it gets really rough, near the RA itself: nearly 17k verts and well over 12k tris.
I know why this room is so GPU-heavy, too: the walkways not only have plenty of brushes in their basic structure, but use transparant grating, too. Every transparant surface can double the amount of stuff to be drawn, and several layers of overlapping walkway is asking a bit too much.


I hope that wasn't too much / too detailed / too annoying for you. As a beta, this looks like it's going to be great. :]

Alright now i have something to work on :)
I'll lighten the map up abit thought as i said for me the map doesnt feel that dark but might be cuz of my system settings.
And yes there aint a single clip brush so you can easily get to weird places or get stucked into things.

Regarding the "terrain" floor i've been thinking about going back using curve brushes since aligning textures on normal brushes with diffrent facings is a bitch, i know it can be solved using q3as terrain system but unfortunate i have no idea how to use it and cba learning it at this time.

Well for the red armor walkways im thinking about using another texture however i doubt i whould change it to something more "quakeish" style but we will see.

Im abit aginst to make certain doorways wider/taller cuz in my opinion they were an important theme in the original map but i'll have a go at it and we will see how it works.

Oh yeah teleporter textures..there aint one..yet :) still need to find/make a decent teleporter texture and if  ya have any suggestions let me know!

Yupp lifts doesnt rly show and "mechanics" havent gotten there yet prolly will be one of the last things i'll do.

Regarding the "bridges in the RA/LI room..if i whould fill those gaps between the "railing" and actual bridge feel better?
Regarding r_speeds yeah some of them are abit high but in my opinion its something i can live with and whouldnt expect any less due to some areas are kinda heavy detailed.
I'll work abit with hint brushes once the map is in the final stages (which generally never works the way you want it to :P)

Question: for those areas using "slime" whould lava feel better? Also regarding the "floor" detail at the nailgun the glass and the slime is going away, however the detail is way to neat for me to completly remove it so it has to stay..but in a diffrent way.

Anyways thanks all for the feedback! specially tabby who has an amazing eye for finding things thats not right.
Now i just need to find the time to actually do the work on the map..but thats a diffrent story..Either way shouldnt take that long until the map is "done" tho there will be abit more betas till then!

One thing pops to mind, regarding the "terrain" floor: I just used one big curve patch (in my still unfinished strogg map ;)), made some extra subdivisions where they would count, and made it cover the entire surface that should be soil-ey. I had to use a larger texture scale for it to look right, but there were no seams at all, and it wasn't difficult either. I guess it's "cheating" compared to using real "terrain", but I haven't made that plunge either. ;]

I think what would look great in the green slime places is a more subdued coloured liquid: like brownish slime or dark-green slime. That might require a texture recolor and maybe a shader adaptation, but nothing difficult, I think..

As for teleporter texture.. I'm not sure. The most quakish that comes to mind is probably in the evillair pack? I think there's a swirling "starry sky" teleporter texture. I admit I haven't spent a long time looking for teleporter textures, as I haven't used them at all, yet..


I'm kind of curious to see what the r_speeds would be in the RA room if you change the grating to a non-transparent texture. I have a hunch the difference would be huge, but it's only an informed guess at this point. As for being able to live with it: at around 12k for verts is for me pretty steep but acceptable in really detailed or highly interconnected rooms (like in q2dm2's RL tower for instance). But over 16k is just not nice to the few peeps who're still running older hardware, I think. In a few years, nobody will know the difference ofcourse..

Boot, there's Q1-style teleporter gates on Dark Zone.  Why not just use the teleport texture from those?

So I havent been posting much here lately regarding this map but behind the scenes i've done quite abit of work on it. However i decided to finaly say goodbye to old gtkradiant 1.2.13 and try the new fancy stuff (gtkradiant 1.5)
But had a minor set back since i used brush primitives i found no good way to convert it to the new mapsystem..which meant i had to reset every texture on the map.. Can't say i enjoyed re-aligning all the textures again.

Still i say gtkradiant 1.2.13 is way more faster to work with than 1.5 however its hell of alot easier to align textures in 1.5 also 1.5 has a really good rotating tool, sure 1.2 had it aswell but it also deformed the brushes while rotating and that was abit annoying.. thats why i always tended to avoid rotating brushes at all but try to build a brush when you dont really have a good viewport showing it from the side/front and so on.

ugh it has gone over a year since i last posted an update here but i am actually working on this map...again! will post an new version of the map once i get the time for it, atm im just too tired to actually do anything -.-

Well since it seems to be alot of mapping activity going on i couldnt resist to start working some myself.
I've been working off and on, on this map for over an year now it's soon done however it still needs some tweaking.

Anyways here is a link of the latest beta: http://hem.passagen.se/macleod2/quake3/maps/beta/req1dm3v2_beta.html (http://hem.passagen.se/macleod2/quake3/maps/beta/req1dm3v2_beta.html)

As always ignore the swedish comercial :P god i really need to get a new host that allows direct linking...

At a start bugs that i know of:

* Underwater at the LG you actually get "out of water" i forgot to lengthen the waterbrush there.

* Light color at MH yard is way to "blue"

*  There are two textures white and brown bricks that looks like shit i know about this im gonna beg Tab to make better ones there *Hint*

* Missing various clips

* Bots loves water...still even with shitloads of BOT DO NOT ENTER..they still enter...

* Teleporter shader looks odd will have a go at this later i just hate making shaders thought..

* Some areas have high r_speeds also know about it but used hinting and stuff to reduce it however i dont think i can reduce it more than i've already have unless deleteing quite a number of brushes.
 
Anyways have it a spin gimme some feedback regarding lights, bugs and other ideas.

R_speeds are looking acceptable, actually. Maybe I've missed the peak areas.

Overall it's looking very good. Unmistakably q1dm3, yet visually updated as per usual with ReBoOt-maps. It also look like you took much if not all of the earlier commentary to heart, which really shows. I like your new take on the rectangular stairway next to the MH-hill area, it looks very neat now!

I'll just do my usual screenshot-aided commentary:

screenshots: http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/req1dm3v2_b8

[0000]
You're right, teleport shader looks kinda crummy. Have you seen the shader that I packed up for Mink? See his Cistern thread in this forum, it's only a few posts from the end.

[0001]
These beams are always a neat effect, but here they look weird. It doesn't look like a light positioned that way could ever create such a beam. It should probably be wider as well as a lot subtler..

[0002]
The update of these walkways really helps, they look solid now. A little narrow, but that's part of the Quake-design, so no worries there. What looks off to me in this shot is the colours of some parts: the grey smooth frame of the walkways looks too clean for the Quakish environment, something browner or with more grit would fit better. In addition, the orange grate in the lowest steps is a bit too orange, and clashes with the other browns in the area.

[0003]
I assume this is a known, but these lights (and the skeleton) are not clipped. Same goes for the wall light in the stairway right next to where this shot was taken.

[0004]
These spotlights are oddly tiny. Better scale them up, or replace them with light fixtures that look good at that size..

[0005]
There's really no excuse to use ugly terrain textures like this one anymore. Just visit this site: http://cgtextures.com/ (free, but with capped account) and browse the ground/grass/sand textures. There's beautiful stuff in there, and the stuff at the top of each category is usually pre-tiled aswell (so no Photoshopping at all required before use, even!).

An area like this simply begs to be worked at with dotproduct terrain, too. Takes some figuring out (which I'm willing to help with), but it's really worth the hassle. See here: http://www.simonoc.com/pages/articles/terrain1_1.htm

[0006]
Same goes for the sky. It's not that hard to get something that looks better than this. Maybe the only problem is the scale.. the pixelation/low resolution is the only thing really bad looking here, I think.

[0007]
Looks much better then before from the other side (see previous comments). Still has the problem of looking very thin, and the shape of the window could definately be more fancy. Even breaking up the trapezoid shape with a few bevels might help..

[0008]
Step height here and pretty much everywhere else is really big. It doesn't look like you could comfortably walk up this kind of step at all. You might consider doubling the amount of steps, especially in areas where this is particularly apparent, such as here.

[0009]
Still needs to be clipped. But, again, I assume you know and this is what you referred to in the list of known problems.

[0010]
Since Q3 doesn't have plat sounds, you get errors like these on a clean install. You might consider using func_door instead of _plat, that would solve the problem one way, I guess.

[0011]
Problem with caulked brushes solved here, by clipping this area. Now, however, it is pretty much impossible to rocketjump to the other side of the area, while it looks like it can be done easily (and that looks to me like the kind of move a lot of players use, here). So I guess it would better to clip it higher, and just add textures?

[0012]
This doorway is rather low, I can jump into it, which may be an annoyance. Doesn't look like there's any reason to keep it this low?

[0013]
Kind of hard to see where this is, but it's in the middle of the tech-maze underneath the PG spawn. Somehow I run into an invisible edge here. Don't quite know what might be causing that..

[0014]
Very nice area here, looks very factory-ish and I like the pipes here. It does look like it could be a bit less brightly lit, though. Right now all the shapes are washed out and the place looks overbright. Looks like this is the kind of place that would come out best if a bit gloomy and shadowy.

That's it for now. I didn't have a lot of time tonight, so I may have put things a little bluntly. No offense intended, just my usual 2cts. Also, and again, overall the map is looking very good -- I just focus on the negative. ;]

Odd on the sounds...  I never realized Q3 was missing the plat sounds until you posted this.  I have the plat sounds from Q2 in a .pk3 file for use with some converted maps for testing.  That might explain why I've not seen this error, and why some map authors have included Q1 or Q2 plat sounds in their pk3's.  the plat function references the sounds, they just aren't there.  That's an easy enough fix in Gen, but if someone's making a map for Q3 in general I can see how that could be quite an issue.

I haven't had time to go over the map yet, I've been busy on dev work of my own, but I'll try to get a good look at it soon.

Wow externsive feedback as always tabun

[0000] Hmm will take a look at it, if there already is a nice shader for it i wont bother creating my own.

[0001] Well yeah might take a look at it if i can do something diffrent but they will stay in someway or another cuz they look so cool :)

[0002] I actually tried a wider version of those walkways but then i rember the whole point was them beeing narrow cuz it's supposed to be hard to get to that armor.
Well i could try to follow the common theme i've done so far and go for the brown/metal stuff will have a go at it.

[0003]
Yeah still placing clips so there are bound to be unclipped models/other areas

[0004] Will try to size them up abit

[0005] haha naw i wont be using that terrain texture its a placeholder until i find something better i'll take a look at the site you suggested thought.

*shrugs* well i did use the dot2product once thought i dont rember how i did it, gonna look around the testmaps i've done, will work on this later and of course i could use any help i can get :)

[0006]
Aye skie look like crap will find something better, even believe i have some nice skie assets laying around somewhere..

[0007] Well im not sure i want it to be beveled, agree on i might make it abit wider but the point of the window was to follow the original abit, but of course i dont mind trying new ideas will see if i can do something else!

[0008] Well steps are also a part i've tried to follow the original quake 1 had these kind of large steps.. thought i have another idea how to make them look "thinner" thought i might try to double the steps i will have to test it first thought.

[0009] Will get clipped once i get there.

[0010] Actually i didnt know about that, i do have plat sounds but might be cuz of some plat sounds i have installed.. :O

[0011] Hmm got a point there i'll do it! :)

[0012] Shouldnt be a problem to raise the doorway abit, will do it

[0013] Yeah i noticed that aswell and i dont know why it happens since i dont have any clip there.. will try to raise it 1 unit and see if it makes any difference.

[0014] Yeah gonna tone the lights abit last time that area was too dark, now it's too bright instead.

Hehe well i need to know all the negatives about the map else it can get good :P besides it makes me look at things at diffrent angles.

Anyways what did suprise me was that you didnt see the crappy textures i've made? :P they look so photoshop that i feel i'll everytime i see them, rly could use some help there if you have the time over tab, it's only 2 textures :) (The small white bricks and brown bricks)

That is definitely very not bad. I loved the Q symbol on the wall by the red armor.. and all the pipes. :)

Can't really think of much else to say really.

Well havent updated this thread that much but the map is pretty much done, will put up another beta soon and if noon find anything wrong with it it's "done" :)

*Cough* I dont post much in this thread but im actually still working on this map, it's mostly done anyways so i'll post a final beta in like around christmas maybe if i get the time!

On another sidenote im also working on a q1dm2 remake began detailing it, but spork it's hard to find any texture set that match that map, so i guess i need to poke around the net abit and see what i find!

Sweet.  Looking forward to some Q1 map goodness!  :slippy_love:

Would any of Tab's textures from his Q1DM5 remake work?

Still trying to find the inspiration to finish my Q2DM6 remake...or Did boot say he did that one already?
Too many unfinished maps in the works...lol

Maybe should check them out! :)

Xypher: Nope havent done any q2dm6 remake yet atleast :)