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It seems events in the world are moving faster than anyone can keep up.  On July 4, Independence Day for the United States, you have the US launching a space shuttle while North Korea launches missiles.  When the West was about to push for sanctions against Iran for its nuclear program, Hamas kidnaps an Israeli soldier, provoking Israel to launch air strikes, followed by Hizbullah launching attacks from Lebanon, and more tit-for-tat responses.  Fingers are being pointed at Iran and Syria, and Iran (http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/738315.html) is saying they'll consider any attacks against Syria an attack on Islam in general.  Need I remind anyone that Iran also gets its missile technology from North Korea...  Meanwhile Tokyo has threatened North Korea and there's a fleet of US Aegis missile destroyers and various other warships in the South China sea, while China and Russia oppose sanctions against North Korea, whom they are in bed with anyway...

To many, that this may escalate into a world war may be unthinkable, but the unthinkable has happened before. (http://www.hallindseyoracle.com/articles.asp?ArticleID=13115)  Twice before in the last century, wars started because some people tried to do nothing and let evil men have their way, and the entanglement of alliances and treaties led to increased escalation and involvement of more and more nations.  As I watch these events unfold, I wonder, is history about to repeat itself?  I know people will level accusations at just about everyone - some will blame Israel, some will blame the Arabs, some will blame the US, some will blame the UN... but I'm not interested in who's at fault here, only with what's going to happen next and how it's going to affect the people I know.  I have friends who are in the military, I have friends who have young children.  Many people I know and love are old, or sick and infirm, and struggle just to survive day by day as it is.  Through this forum and over these last few years, I've gotten to know, even if just a little, people from all over the world I would not have known otherwise.  I normally do not share my thoughts in this fashion, usually just trying to post bits and pieces of interesting stuff to get people to think, or to prove a point, but I feel this is different.  A part of me wonders if this couldn't be the beginning of something awful for everyone I know.  

I don't like to depress people, or spread news of doom and gloom.  I deal with evil in my life to try to lessen the extent of evil's reach into the lives of those I care for.  I want people to be happy, and free from care.  I don't want to see my friends hurt, or scared, but I cannot turn a blind eye to these recent events.  I'm hoping and praying that everyone looks with careful thought toward their own lives, and the lives of their loved ones should this grow into something far reaching.  If there's anything important you've been putting off in your life, maybe now's a good time to do some of those things you never got around to doing.  If you do nothing else, please pray for peace.

good god ya'l! what is it good for?

Far more good than doing nothing at all.

Apathy is lethal!

if this is the third world war, the forth will be fought with bows and arrows.

if anyone is about to fight it, that is.



its getting late.
to late to prey.
too late to prey on them.
we'll all blow away.

Everyone's waiting for something to happen
Everybody's waiting for something to see
Lunatics waiting for bigger disasters
Everyone's waiting for news on TV

Winding lives at the end of the spiral
Waiting dictators with their next big thrill
Everyone's looking but no one is listening
Everybody wants to be in at the kill

I wait for the signs, they tell me true
I see the signs of the end time

Everyone's searching but nothing's revealing
Everyone's looking for the reason why
Everyone's hoping for life everafter
Everyone's looking at death from the sky

Everyone's nightmares are going to happen
Everybody's ripping the mask from their eyes
Everyone's praying but no one's believing
Everybody's heroes tell everyone's lies

I wait for the signs, they tell me true
I see the signs of the end

So I watch, and I wait
And I pray for an answer
An end to the strife and the world's misery
But the end never came
And we're digging the graves
And we're loading the guns for the kill

Can the end be at hand?
Is the face in the sand?
Future memory of our tragedy

Can the end be at hand?
Is the face in the sand?
Future memory of our tragedy

Words to "Face in the Sand", by Iron Maiden.

Truer words have yet to be spoken.

ha! Europe's only front will be to see meaningless resolutions passed in the U.N. "we would really really like you guys to stop fighting but we arent going to do anything if you dont".

Funny thing is: I saw 'latest post: by Woodsman' and I chucklingly predicted _exactly_ what he'd posted. You never let me down, you old drunkard :]

Too easy.  Predictiong that i would complain about the europeans and the UN is like predicting is like predicting al bundy complaining about fat women at the shoe store.

Woodsman, try posting sober next time.  You scare me when you start to type like Games Keeper.  If you were sober when you posted that, then post drunk next time, or whatever it takes to fix your sentences.

Regarding the EU, if you believe prophecy, then the EU will broker a temporary peace.  Fighting over Jerusalem will lead to a 7 year peace treaty.  According to the prophet Daniel, 9:27, "he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week", the Hebrew translated as 'week' is literal for a period of 7 years.  This figure is identified as the Antichrist elsewhere in the bible, but we know he's from Rome because in 9:26 "the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary".  The city and sanctuary were destroyed by Titus and Vespacian, Roman generals, in 70 AD, and the "prince that shall come" is identified as coming from the Roman empire.  The EU is referred to as the revival of the Roman empire, Rome being the "legs of iron", with two centers of power - the city of Rome, and the city of Constantinople, revived Rome being the "toes of iron mixed with clay" identified by Daniel in Nebuchudnezzar's dream about the statue.  So yes, Europe will eventually get involved if the prophetic scenario is getting ready to play out.  How soon I cannot say.

Now whether you believe prophecy or not, and whether or not this is the time spoken of by Daniel, this fighting between Israel and its neighbors is not to be taken lightly.  It will affect the whole world in ways most people can't forsee.  All roads lead to Jerusalem, and if this fighting goes beyond Lebanon into Syria and Iran, the whole Islamic beast that resides in that region could awaken to war.  That means poverty for millions.  Oil is already spiraling even higher on the markets, and this continues to strain the poor.  Like it or not, oil drives the machine that is the world economy.  If the oil stops flowing because of conflict, every major consumer of oil will take an interest in the region.  This includes the EU, and China, and Russia, as well as the United States.  World economies will crash if oil becomes unobtainable.  Can you fathom what that would mean for you, your families - everyone?  I pray this does not happen, but you know it damned well could.

What most people are failing to grasp is that coexistence with Israel is not an option to the hardline Islamists.  Iran's president already said Israel should be wiped from the map.  Hezbullah and Hamas both have this as their goal in their charter.  They want war!  Olmert, Israel's Prime Minister, has stated the only acceptible terms for a cease fire is the return of the abducted soldiers, the permanent disarming of hezbullah, and the deployment of legitimate Lebanese army soldiers along the Lebanese border.  Hezbullah will never disarm, and Lebanon's army is no match for those Iranian and Syrian-backed forces.  They're better armed, better organized, and better equipped.  Syria's involvement is without question because it was a Syrian-made rocket that hit Haifa.  If Olmert does not budge, and Hezbullah does not give in, that means the fighting will continue and only get worse.  They knew exactly what they were doing with those kidnappings, because if Israel negotiated it would lead to MORE kidnappings and negotiations - release of prisoners, more land grabs, cuts to bleed your enemy to death with.  Whether slowly through terrorist acts, or quickly through all-out war, they picked a fight deliberately for this end and this end alone - to fulfill Psalm 83:4 "They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance."

The world can call for a "measured response" all it wants, but Olmert knows Hezbullah wants nothing short of annihilation for his country and his people.  There can be no "measured response" to people who want to kill you.  People in this century aren't used to the old ways of waging war.  They're used to peace treaties, and resolutions, and mediation.  You can't bargain with people who are unwilling to coexist.  Lay blame wherever you like, but the truth of the situation is, Israel will either fight to the death, or die itself, unless some "miraculous" figure manages to broker a temporary peace.  Otherwise there's no middle ground.

It saddens me that so many don't seem to grasp the seriousness of this situation, or if they do, they're not making it very well known.  I seek to warn people not to be a doomsayer or a prophet, but only as a friend so they may take heed of how this may affect their own lives.  All I ask is that people pay attention to what happens there so that if trouble spreads through the world, they are not caught unaware.

Hey Pho:

Ever hear of a biblical figure named Amalek? It appears our Isreali friends have taken that particular moral to heart.

Amalek was the son of Eliphaz and the grandson of Esau, but I assume you're referring to this verse, 1 Samuel 15:3

If this is so, let me clarify something about the current situation.  Israel is not waging a war of genocide.  Hizbullah is.  Hizbullah started this particular fight.  Hizbullah is raining down rocket after rocket upon Israel.  Hizbullah launched an unprovoked attack, and kidnapped two Israeli soldiers.  Hizbullah sat in the Lebanese government for 6 years, while directing its forces to amass an arsenal along the south Lebanese border, the border that Israel withdrew its forces from in good faith after having occupied it for so long to prevent just this situation.  Hizbullah takes its marching orders from Iran and Syria.  Hizbullah's charter DEMANDS the destruction of Israel, and the extermination of the Jew - a goal that Iran's president has also publicly stated.

Hizbullah is not a race, or a nation, it is a terrorist organization.  Wiping out a terrorist organization is not genocide.  What Israel did with Amalek in ancient times is incongruent with the current conflict.  Israel has no choice but to destroy Hizbullah's arsenal, destroy their positions in south Lebanon, and continue their operations until the threat of rocket attacks is removed. The only way that is going to happen is if Syria and Iran back down, Hizbullah withdraws from the border, and an international peacekeeping force is sent in to secure South Lebanon from further Hizbullah influence, and the Lebanese government is propped up.  This will require the complete expulsion of Hizbullah as a political AND paramilitary faction from Lebanon.  Otherwise, the second option is for Israel to continue fighting until Hizbullah is completely and utterly defeated militarily.  A cease fire now would only permit Hizbullah to rearm and continue this later.  This is the same pattern we've seen Israel's enemies take with them time and time again - attack, suffer retaliation, call for peace, then rearm and reposition during the calm.  Wash, rinse, repeat.  Israel knows this cannot work, the entire world knows this cannot work.  There can be no such thing as a "measured response" with someone who wants to murder every man, woman, and child in your land.  You cannot coexist with them, you cannot make peace with them.  You can only defeat them.  If anyone's goal is genocide here, it is not Israel.  If that were so, they'd deploy their nukes and just vaporize their neighbors instead of trying to coexist in spite of them for 58 years.

Now, that being said, if you meant something else in regards to Amalek besides 1 Samuel 15:3, then please elaborate.[/color]

Actually, my point was that Amalek used terrorist tactics against Jeruselem by sneaking into the back of town and killing the sick and crippled (basically the innocent) because he had a personal vendetta against the Jews. God pretty much told him the only way you are going to get rid of his kind is to wipe them completely off the face of the earth. King Solomon didn't do this. He keep their gold, their wives, etc. et.c and now here we are again, doing the same thing.

My point is, I hope this time they take care of the problem by completely wiping it out.

BTW, Amalek never represented a nation either. In my interpretation he resembles Hizbullah. I didn't say anything about genocide.

Anyway, here's a question. Where was it these bastards started stock piling weapons? Answer, Mosques and civilian homes.

If they can't keep their own places of worship sacred, why should we?

oh no what this situation calls for is diplomacy! Diplomacy can resolve any despute! may the UN lead us in a bright and glorious future!

Note the sarcasm.

Not very constructive, nor very mature, too.

Note the lack of sarcasm.

;]

McDeth:  We find ourselves in agreement then.  I did not know your perspective or intent regarding the reference to Amalek, so I appreciate the elaboration.  It might have saved on some verbosity on my part had you expounded prior, but I like to squawk so no harm done either way.  I was also not intent on assuming you meant Israel was engaging in genocide, but the passage I quoted raised the possibility that some might interpret it that way, hence my own exposition.  I'm sure you understand.

Now regarding where they're stockpiling weapons, a big part of the problem is they've dug many underground tunnels all through the region, and as you said, many weapons caches are under or in mosques, or under or in other civilian infrastructure.  There's a reason they do that.  They use the civilian population as human shields so that the civilian deathtoll from any retaliatory action can be used for political leverage with the world's bleeding hearts, and also to incite other Muslims to anger.  See, to the Islamic extremist, any Muslim that dies in the fight for world conversion is a martyr, and it's every Muslim's duty to fight and die.  Those who are unwilling to fight aren't true Muslims anyway, and like the infidels, need to be weeded out.  That's why, to them, hiding behind civilians is a legitimate tactic.  Hiding weapons in mosques is legitimate too because they feel they're fighting a Jihad, and the weapons are part of this "holy" war.  Killing civilians is definitely a legitimate tactic (to them) since every non-Muslim is an infidel, and they must either convert or be slain.  Islam also has a tendency to knock down other people's holy sites and build their own on top of it.  Once a mosque goes up, it never comes down according to the dictates of Dar al Islam, and since attacking a mosque is considered an offence against all of Islam... well you see the problem there.  The world must respect Islam's holy sites, but Islam respects only Islam.

Woods:  Who said anything about diplomacy being a solution to this problem?

I have a pretty good talent for not explaining myself.

Anyway, I have the greatest respect for Isreal and the Jewish community. After seeing Isreal fight, that respect has never been higher. I'm tired of people bitching about "they took Palestine away from the Palestinians." spork off I say. It was Isreal before it was Palestine so stick that in your hooka and puff on it.

I think the problem with dealing with situations like these is modern mans need to see every view point. Just this morning in the Sanfrancisco chronicles opinion page i once again saw the sons of liberty compared to Hizbulla . Now i understand they were both political activist groups who were violent in achieving their political objectives, but the sons of liberty never blew themselves up on a school bus to prove a point, they targeted government institutions and individuals to archive a specific political end.   Hizbulla on the other targets civilian centers with the specific intention of instilling fear in the civilian populace to archive a kind of religious and ethnic purging.
  Why do we shrink from calling such people terrorists?. Why must we call them ?alleged militants? Why do we feel the need to consider the opinions of people whos stated goal is to whipe a nation and people from the face of the earth? Did we ask Hitler what the root of his anger was when he swept across europe? Did we consider his feelings?.
  They more we indulge violent fundamentalist groups with our overflowing tolerance and understanding the more vunerable we become. Tolerance should only be applied to those who tolerate others. Lebanon would get a lot more pity out of me if they hadnt ellected these lunatics into their government ( yes Hizbulla does hold offices in the Lebanese government) if they chose to encourage and facilitate terrorism then they must be prepared to face to consquences. If you dont want your house blown up, dont let crazed terror mongers hide in your basement.

Actually, Neville Chamberlain did.  We saw how well that worked, and we're seeing equally well how quickly people forget the lessons of history.

Seriously, though, what were they gonna do? Lift anyone they thought might be a terrorist? Britain and the US have already tried that, it doesn't work.  :offtopic: That's how Juan-Charles de Menezez got shot. :offtopic: There's no way of telling who's in Hezbollah and who isn't. As for letting them stand for government, there's no real way that they can stop them. The whole idea of inclusion was in the vain hope that Hezbollah could be tamed. We now know that not to be the case, but ultimately democracy has its flaws too. :offtopic: Besides, Sinn Fein hold offices in Northern Ireland (or at least they did until the Assembly got suspended again, now no-one does) :P

Israel has every right to be pissed off, but why are they bombing Lebanese infrastructure? AFAIC their response has been over-agressive, unjust and, frankly, as inhumane as those they seek to destroy. The civilian bodycount is rising every day that this crisis continues.

Perhaps it's because, ultimately, the West has got their back ...

I thought I had made that clear already.  You do read my posts, right?

So what do you propose they do then?  If what Israel is doing is wrong in your view, then in your view, what is the correct course of action?

You really do not want to know my answer. Seriously.

But, since you ask ...

Pulling out of Gaza would be a start. [/sarcasm]

Terrorists taking hostages is nothing new. Negotiation has worked in the past even if it does take time, and there's always the option of finding out where the hostages are and storming the place. You take a risk either way, though It goes without saying that plan B is riskier (not that Russia seems to care much ;) ).

BTW Sorry, I do read your posts, it's just been a long day :zzz:

No, I did want to know your answer.  What you probably meant was I will not like your answer, which you're right.  I don't.  I don't think I need to explain why.

The reason Isreal is taking the offensive is they are tired of negociations, tired of this pacifist Chamberlainism, and tired of getting their dicks blown off because of it. I don't blame them. These bastards keep harassing Isreal and it is high time they did something about it.

This is a very simplicistic analogy, but bare with me here.

Remember the son of a bitch behind you in grade school that kept poking you and poking you and no matter how much you appealed to him to stop, he kept doing it. What did you eventually do? You halled off and hit 'em in the gob.

Now really, what did you think would happen if these terrorist cells kept this up? Frankly I'm proud of Isreal, very proud. They are doing an effective job taking care of the situation and damned if I care if their civilians get offed. They didn't care when Isreali citizens or (dare I say it) American citizens got killed. You want to talk about innocent bystanders, well there they were.

I can tell you one thing, they weren't quartering terrorists or storing weapons in their places of worship or their homes.

If the British government had taken the same stance when the IRA began bombing London back in the 70's as Israel are now with Hezbollah I probably would not be sitting here typing this right now. Hell, I may never have been born, what with the civil war and all ...

The so-called "state of Israel" was artificially installed by the West after WW2 with total disregard for those who were living in Palestine at the time. That is one of the big factors as to why there's been so much tension in the Middle East for so long.

The general consensus I'm getting here is: "Sure, let the Israeli government do whatever the hell they like for as long as they like and stuff the consequences. It's only a couple of thousand Lebanese anyway. Besides they have the apparently unconditional backing of the US if things get REALLY hairy."

Hate to break the news, but NO act of terrorism constitutes a carte blanche. What Israel is now doing will serve only to make an already diabolical situation EVEN WORSE for all involved.

Note also that Lebanon themselves are not fighting back. It is not their war, yet they will suffer the greatest. Despite Israeli missiles apparently having deadly accurate guidance systems, they are still hitting hotels, shops and other areas full of innocent bystanders. What happens when they start using pre-emptive tactics like their US counterparts and go after the likes of Iran and Syria? That's just going to bring on WWIII so much quicker.

I think you need to read a different set of history books.  You do not understand Islam, you do not understand how these people think, and you do not know the full history of the region.  Comparing this situation to the situation with the IRA illustrates this.  The situations are entirely different.  That being said, I'm not going to elaborate on what I know of Israel's history here, and what happened prior to and after the formation of Israel as a state.  I'm not going to go into how the so-called Palestinians were treated by their "Arab brothers" after said formation of Israel, as opposed to the options Israel gave to them.  If all you're interested in doing is jumping on the "let's blame Israel and the US" bandwagon, you've established that your thinking is entrenched and inflexible.  I'm hoping that's not the case.

Now, why won't I elaborate, you may ask?  You've demonstrated that you will not believe what I say, probably due to politics, and you've expressed this fact before in previous postings of opinion.  You need third-party information to change your thinking on this.  The question is whether or not you want the full story, or are content enough in your position that you don't care about the facts in favor of continuing with your position.  If you care about understanding and being informed, I can assure you that there's a lot of information you're missing out on here.  Since you disagree with me, and won't believe what I say regarding the history of the region, I invite you to do further research on your own and explore the history above and beyond what you currently think.  Don't believe me?  Fine.  Read it for yourself.  I would invite you to read the Jewish side of the story as well.  What you're saying right now I could pick up off Al-Jazeera or any left-wing blog, so you've already got that side of the story.

At this point we can be pretty much sure that diplomacy is a dead horse between Israel and its Arab neighbors. No matter what territory they pull out of, no matter what militants they release its never going to be enough .The terrorists ( note i did not say freedom fighters or alleged militants) have stated many times they will never ever live peacefully with Israel. Lebanon and Palestine have both shown their support for terror by electing terrorist groups into their governments and by supporting  acts of terrorism from their own homes. Until the Arab world realizes that it actually has to live with Israel there will never be peace. Hezbollah and Lebanon know exactly what they need to do to stop the Israeli attacks and they are hardly unreasonable demands. If they refuse to deliver they are shit out of luck. No amount of left wing ? oh the poor down trodden Muslim masses being oppressed by the evil hooked nosed Jews and the big bad west? nonsense is going to change anything.

Aside from the fact that they've been fighting for thousands of sporking years because of religious differences even when Isreal WAS a country in biblical times.

I think you're missing the point completely. Even before they knew the west existed they were fighting. There has always been tension in the Middle East and there will always be tension in the Middle East.

I can't give a detailed description of "why" because I don't know who begot who and who had a pissing contest with who's brother, but regardless this is a bunch of warring factions that know how to hold grudge. As secular as you seem to be I suppose the bible isn't a good source for arguement.

I think you and I can agree on one thing, Western interference was a bad thing. I wish we never got involved in the Middle East, but we did. Now it's a mess. It appears Isreal is going to do it's best to clean it up.

Pho: For the record I studied the history of the Arab-Israeli conflict in school. And I passed. And  yes, I think it's safe to assume that we are reading from different texts. What I stated above is my own interpretation. I don't bother with lefty stuff either as a lot of it IS balls. Nor am I simply jumping on the US-bashing bandwagon, other nations are implicated too (Britain to name but one). Also, my IRA reference was to point out just how ludicrous Israel's strategy is. Granted, the circumstances surrounding each are different, but my point was that no matter the situation, you can't just go gung-ho and blow the shit out of all and sundry. That makes you as bad as those you're trying to get at.

Yes there has always been unrest in the Middle East, but it was never a global threat until the West started meddling (as it does) and made an enemy out of practically the whole region.

McDeth: As for Israel "cleaning it up", I couldn't disagree more. Regardless of how well-placed Israel's intentions may be (and I'm not sold yet on that one either) the operation in Lebanon will indeed open up "the gates of Hell" in the region if the war in Iraq didn't already. And there's Condoleeza affirming the US's support for Israel, hoping that they can wipe out Hezbollah and create a "new Middle East". Successfully wiping out a terrorist organization is one thing, pissing off their mates in Tehran is another altogether.

I suppose I just value human life too much.

BTW Israel scored a direct hit on a UN observation post yesterday, killing four. Now it gets interesting ...

Like I said.  Most people don't know what war is because they've never seen a real, full-scale, unrestrained war.  What Israel is doing right now is a hell of a lot less than what it COULD do, and I'm not even talking nukes.  If you think Israel is behaving badly, then I'd ask you to consider what her neighbors TRIED to do in 1948, and several times after.  I want to know why it is that nobody who likes to level blame at Israel and the US (and Brittain too, let's blame the whole bloody west for saving Europe from the Nazis while we're at it) EVER, EVER blames the Arabs for inviting their own troubles by picking a fight in the first place.  If Hizbullah had not launched a sneak attack, killing 3 soldiers, kidnapping two, and firing their little rockets across the border, Israel would have left them the hell alone.  Now, can we please move past the blame game?

The UN outpost getting hit is unfortunate, but this is war and people get killed.  I'd hate to tell you how many civilians died in World War 2.  War is SUPPOSED to be ugly.  That's its best deterrent, but again I emphasize, once war becomes unavoidable, or battle engaged, you MUST win it, or your enemy just rearms and more blood is shed through prolonging the conflict than would have been shed through a quick and decisive victory.  So yes, you CAN go blowing the crap out of all and sundry.  THAT'S WHAT YOU DO IN A WAR!  You win wars by killing people and breaking stuff.  I'm sorry, but there's nothing else to it.  You can try to not kill innocent people along the way, but you win wars by killing the other guy until he can't fight anymore.  Period.

There's nothing wrong with valuing human life.  I value all life.  What, you think I'm a heartless bastard simply because I agree with strong tactics?  I want a decisive end to the conflict so that this doesn't happen again.  A ceasefire now would ensure it does.  If Israel just took a few Hizbullah prisoners and shot a few of them in response to them kidnapping and killing soldiers, it would be perceived as a sign of weakness and would invite further attacks.  Terrorists don't pick fights unless they think you're weak.  A lot of Arabs do not value life because they're taught not to.  There are many Arab-Israelis who enjoy the same rights of citizenship in Israel that Israel grants to its Jewish citizens.  Can you say the same for Iran, or Syria, or Lebanon, in regards toward Jews?  There's a lot of them that literally hate the Jews, and want to murder them down to the last child, and they'll praise Allah for every drop of blood they shed.  Oh sure, they'll use the media to put a humanitarian spin on it, oh woe is me, look at how those dirty Jews kill our people (while the terrorists go run into a mosque, holding the people - Arabs, mind you - hostage and firing rockets from inside), but I can assure you that THEY want victory too, but their version of it consists of genocide.  That is the policy of Dar Al Islam.  Don't believe me?  Read what is taught about Dar Al Harb, and Dar Al Islam.  Read it from moderate Muslim sources if you like.  You'll see.  Israel's version of victory is to not have rockets lobbed accross its border so its people can live in peace.  I know who I'm going to back in this fight, and it's Israel.  They didn't pick this fight, and I won't criticize them for trying to win it.  If Hizbullah didn't want an ass kicking maybe it should have thought twice about deliberately lobbing missiles into Israel's general population.  That's the real crime here.  Everyone calls on Israel to coexist.  Where are the cries for their neighbors to coexist with them?

I'm pragmatic about the whole situation.  If someone has to die - and trust me, people are going to die in that region no matter what - I'd rather it be the Hizbullah terrorists than the people they're trying to butcher.  Civilians are going to die on both sides no matter what.  Fighting is inevitable.  War is inevitable.  You can't bury a few thousand years of blood hatred with a few UN resolutions and calls from the "international community" for ceasefires because it's a "humanitarian crisis".  Perhaps you do not see things through my jaded eyes because you've been spared witness of violence and evil that results from oppression, war, and brutality.  If so, consider yourself blessed.  I don't think it is wrong to abhor war.  Every sane person should.  If you truly hate war, and the death that it brings, then pray for a swift and decisive end to the conflict, with the upper hand going to those who value peace.  Hizbullah, Iran, and Syria CANNOT be allowed to win this conflict.

First up, I don't think you're a heartless bastard.

Secondly, I was never implying that diplomacy was going to make it all go away or that Israel should have sat back. The title of this thread is "The Beginning of WWIII?" and I believe that it very well may be. This is a war which cannot be won. A "quick and decisive victory" is rarely achieved against a guerilla force, that's why the fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq continues unabated. And, as was already mentioned, with the possible threat from the warring nations' supporters, the Cold War could get very hot again.

Thirdly, perhaps i haven't seen the kind of stuff that you've seen (I don't know what you've seen and I won't press you) but whenever I see shit like this unfold, it frustrates me, having a pretty decent idea in my own mind of where it may all end (at least, I like to THINK it's a decent idea). I would hope that I could be forgiven for loosing off a bit of cynicism on the boards. I'm all about damage limitation because IMHO, as a species, we are screwed. We are already past the point of no return.

Then our hearts are in agreement, even if we differ on other points.

As far as forgiveness goes, you've committed no offense here.  Being cynical is not a crime, nor is having a difference of opinion.  This forum, and the topics therein exist for the discussion of things people will most likely disagree on.  It's not a "Phoblog".  I only get mad when people break rules.

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/s...a9-7f94d5fc6d50 (http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=37278180-a261-421d-84a9-7f94d5fc6d50)

Interesting indeed.  I saw footage today of infrared video where Hezbollah was firing rocket after rocket from near that huge building that Israel hit that caused 56 civilian deaths.  That's why this is so ugly.  You have Hezbollah deliberately putting missile batteries where, if hit, it will cause the most media sensation and public outrage because it will kill a lot of people who are just in the way.  I find this use of "human shields" the most damnable of offenses in this whole conflict.  It is cowardly, it is cruel, and it underscores exactly why this group of thugs needs to be taken out of commission once and for all.  Their tactics are deplorable, and their strategy perverse.  They don't value Israeli civilians, they don't value Lebanese civilians.  They are worse than worthless.  They represent everything I hate about the human species through their actions.  They are an offense to life.

Edit:  Yet more evidence:
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,...5007220,00.html (http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,19955774-5007220,00.html)

Sorry to bring this old topic to life again but:

We are riding for the battlefield in force tonight
Fury of the darkest evil cry for war
Far beyond the boundaries of hell and starlight
On the road to lands unknown forever more

Through the caverns far below our quest will lead us
Onwards through the ice and snow forever more
Standing fighting full of hate the time has come now
Stand and sound the guns of glory cry for war

On wings of glory we will carry on
Far across forgotten lands towards the distant sun
And in the darkness shining far beyond the starlight
Lightning is striking from the dark dawning shadows
And in the kingdom of the everlasting sun
When the glory of the master's time has come!

DragonForce - Fury of the Storm

Just read thru these posts rly quick since i need to go to work but can anyone tell me what "Evil" really is? i keep reading this word when u americans type, really whats evil? anyone not agreeing with you?
Im not gonna defend islam or whatever since i believe their terrorist has no place in this world.
But if you whould be on their side i pretty much think they see the west as "evil" or anyone thats not islam for that matter.

What im trying to tell which side you are ever on the opposed faction is always "evil" :)

There is alot of war going on many of them are for religous causes or other diffrences, so has mankind really evolved that much? this behavior is like what it was back in the medeval ages or rather "caveman" behavior.

Whats right, whats wrong, well it all depends on what side your on.
Sorry if i hurted anyones feelings just trying to make you see things from all sides just not one.
Anyways off to work!

EDIT: shit this was an ol topic..oh well :)

Evil has similar origins to "Ill" ("Ill-ness", since it's hard to real here), but it seems the word took an etymological twist, most likely when brought in connection with "pure", "pious" ("purus"), where "evil" is the reversion of that. If so, "evil" got stronger as a sort of notion of "moral impurity" and thus the "moral wickedness" (where "wickedness" comes from "wicce/a" ie., what we now know as "witch" and with the connotation of "dealings with the devil").
It seems then, although I cannot be sure, that "evil" picked up in popularity when it got tied in with (ir)religion. If that trend is followed, then you can look up the bases for most of our present understandings of "evil" in medieval theologian's works, and perhaps put those texts in perspective by considering the etymological roots of the word.

It looks like you have a similar understanding to the "american-typed evil", which is "having no place in this world" (just like a disease would have no place in a healthy community or organism), or would I be mistaken in interpreting it that way? :]

Damn tab that was..uhm deep :P