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Author Topic: For the Christians in the Audience  (Read 14181 times)
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dev/null
 
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« Reply #20 on: 2003-02-16, 20:53 »

Religion is no different than everything else in the world. It has grown into popularity and a bunch of posers are trying to cash in on it. And those that are more sinister attempt to gain power by claiming they know what the Lord wants.

I have no beef with personal beliefs, because without those (no matter what form they are in) we would be nothing. But organized religion always seems to cause more pain than it does good. Not just Christianity either, take the Aztecs for example. They were very knowledgeable astronomers, and yet they decided to kill countless people in order to save them selves from the Sixth Sun.

Many wars have been created and many people have been killed just because they have had different beliefs which were seen in the wrong light. This is not what anyone wants, and yet it persists to this very day because of blinded people following the greedy. If there is indeed a higher power in this reality I doubt he'd want his children to be split by such trivial aspects of life. No, I'm sure he'd rather that we all just go about our lives and strive to be good people.
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Tabun
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« Reply #21 on: 2003-02-16, 21:21 »

I think I saw people mention sinfest in the irc channel too, but here she is :]

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Tabun ?Morituri Nolumus Mori?
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« Reply #22 on: 2003-02-16, 22:10 »

I could really care less about what others believe. Slipgate - Smile I know that two people are no where near being the same... even in beliefs. Therefore it's futile to try and sway someone from what they believe. Even if the proof keeps mounting against people, they'll still hold firm to that belief.

I will agree with dev/null's last paragraph though.. especially one sentence: "This is not what anyone wants, and yet it persists to this very day because of blinded people following the greedy." Greed and selfishness seem to run the world, but whatever... to each their own. Perhaps that's why I feel the way I do about the rest of the world. *shrug*

And, Omega... I believe you're referring to the very extremists that Pho was rferring to. Slipgate - Smile
« Last Edit: 2003-02-16, 22:13 by ~SpAwN~ » Logged

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Devlar
 
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« Reply #23 on: 2003-02-16, 22:17 »

Quote from: Tabun
on the count of people being hypocritical or stupid, I personally believe that 90% of the world population is  all that, no matter what they believe in. What other type of creature, given the ability to create, chooses to destroy instead? For no reason, I might add :]
I totally agree with this, but I also think people have to accept themselves as being hypocritcal, hate filled and hedonistic before they can attempt to grow beyond it. Conforming to doctrine makes you something you are not, and that will not help anyone
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Phoenix
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« Reply #24 on: 2003-02-17, 09:16 »

You know what's ironic Devlar is the point you just made actually mirrors the Christian viewpoint that all are people are sinners and do wrong, and that you have to admit to yourself what you've done wrong and repent of those things in order to better yourself.  An interesting parallel among two very different world views, don't you think?  I find that the "looking in the mirror" part is what all of mankind never likes to do, even among the faithful.  It requires humility.  Most men would run away, screaming in madness if they ever were to see themselves as they truly are, and not how they think themselves to be.
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Atom235
 
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« Reply #25 on: 2003-02-17, 21:00 »


My view of the world is scientific, dark and atheistic. Some may even call it satanistic. I think that religion becomes a burden when it limits the persons life to the certain point. Nuff said.
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Phoenix
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« Reply #26 on: 2003-02-17, 23:26 »

Well, you can't be an athiest and worship the devil at the same time, since being athiest means you don't believe a devil exists, so it can't be Satanistic.  Although the flip-side to that is that a lot of people say if there is a real devil then those who don't believe in him often unwittingly do his bidding.  Then again the bible is full of passages where evil men were used unwittingly to do the will of God.  Makes you feel kind of used either way, doesn't it?  I think people can't stand the idea that they're not in control of their own destinies, perhaps this is why people rebel from all forms of control, including religions.  Parents, teachers, kings, policemen, gods...  nobody ever wants to be the lowly pawn on the chessboard, after all.  But then, being king means everyone is after you.  Being a lowly servent can have its advantages.  The important thing when dealing with others of differing beliefs is can you accept the fact that the other person, while they may think about life differently, might be just as happy with their way of thinking as you are with yours?  For a person entrenched in their way of thinking, myself included, it often times becomes impossible to see how anyone else can be happy by living differently, so then the urge to "convert", either towards a religion, or away from, starts to take over.  I do think that it is possible to be passionate about what you think and feel without belittling others for it.  It just seems as a rule to not be easy for people to do.  Educate and inform, yes.  Convert, never.  That goes for both sides.  In the end it does come down to a choice, and nothing more, but that ability to choose is a very sacred thing that should never be lost or taken away.

I think that result of rejecting religion ultimately is that of substituting one form of control for another, that of the perception of a god or gods being in ulitmate control, above and beyond mankind, to that of institutions and aristocracies of men being in ultimate control instead.  Someone will always be in control, and even those at the top are boxed in by the very rules they use to control others.  Unilateral rule, as it were, is a dream of tyrants, and ultimately their undoing since it clashes with the desire of people to not be controlled.  The most iron-fisted dictators are also the most hated, and the most hunted as a result.  Those who concede to public opinion are not fully in control either, since they have to give up absolute power for their existence to be tolerated.

In the end, nobody is ever absolutely free since there will always be people wanting control and always people willing to let men control them.  I'm aware that I'm a servent, and know of Whom I serve, and being this servent by choice instead of against my will means I can be happy with myself instead of being miserable and constantly bemoaning the constraints of the system that limits me.  I choose my constraints, instead of having them chosen for me, even if I'm not the one who defines those constraints.  It's no different from choosing to buy a car, and having a choice of models.  Nobody ever gets to completely engineer their own, after all.  You can choose the package, and a few options here and there, but that's how it works.  The constraints of life are no different, and even anarchists professing lawlessness have to obey the very laws they object to if they want to continue living outside of a prison.  To me the constraints of following my God are a better choice in my view than the abomination of a system that mankind subjects itself to, but others may be happy with that system.  Perhaps in the end that means I'm just another puppet, no different from the rest in that respect, but just a servent of different causes.  Whether I'm better off or not, who can say, but I'm happy with my choice.  I guess the question of religion versus secular life all comes down to who do you want pulling your strings in the end.  How much control do we really have over our lives, as opposed to how much control do we think we have?  The greater question I think is can you see the strings?  Can anybody?


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Rocking with the Band  Come crawling faster.  Obey your Master. [/color]

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« Reply #27 on: 2003-02-18, 03:35 »

My main problem with the review is all the stupid crap they make up or imagine happening in the game.

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When they die, you see their blood spatter on the dark and eerie walls.
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...the screen pans back to show your dying body crumpled to the ground and the bloodthirsty demons eating you like a piece of meat.
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Extra points are given for a shot in the head.

I notice people have mentioned this in the user comments too. I'm sorry but if you start reinventing the truth to aid your argument, it becomes invalid. Thank you, come again.

There is a similar site that does film reviews, although they actually watch the films and present a fairly accurate portrail with summaries of any violence/illegal activities etc. I can respect them for that, even though I don't agree with their sentiments.

I'm not going to touch on the religious argument here, but let me just say this: 50% of the worlds population has below average intelligence. Slipgate - Tongue There are stupid people of every school of thought.
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Devlar
 
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« Reply #28 on: 2003-02-18, 04:06 »

Quote from: Phoenix
You know what's ironic Devlar is the point you just made actually mirrors the Christian viewpoint that all are people are sinners and do wrong, and that you have to admit to yourself what you've done wrong and repent of those things in order to better yourself.
Did I mention I was born a Catholic? So I've spent my time in brainwash camp, although a little less than effective

Yes, I think people should realize the kind of people they are, I don't necessarily label them as sinners, because I refuse to add the "negative" tag to it. But Self Acceptance is the key, even if someone continues doing that "sinning" or so society claims. My philosophy is hedonistic, but i realize no one can be happy unless they take a good realistic look at what they consider their negative sides, rather than what society considers their negative sides.

As for your arguement of that an atheist isn't a satanist (although this term isn't exactly accurate, since the tales of satan and lucifer more or less got mingled into one) is a matter of scriptural interpretation. From what I know the whole point is this, Lucifer thought he was a god which is what caused him to rebel, the religious communities believe that Atheists believe themselves to be gods since they control their universe.
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Phoenix
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« Reply #29 on: 2003-02-18, 05:46 »

Well, atheism means one does not believe in the existance of any god or gods at all.  I suppose the point could be made that believing in no gods could in effect deify one's self, but believing one's self to be a god kind of ruins the whole point of atheism, doesn't it? Slipgate - Tongue

The "self becoming a god" belief actually is rooted in ancient Egyptian culture, that of the Pharoahs being gods among men, but has been translated into some elements of the New Age movement, albeit not in the exact context of the old belief.  I'll reserve my opinion of the aforementioned movement on this forum.
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Tabun
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« Reply #30 on: 2003-02-18, 14:27 »

Come to think of it, I find the beliefs of the Egyptians way more fascinating than the current mainstream ones. Also, I still prefer reading about Egyptian mythology then Greek, for instance ;]

This all has to do very little with what I believe ofcourse :]
About atheism: it's merely a play of terminology - I've stopped calling myself an atheist about 6 years ago, because this is indeed what it literally means, and these reactions were rather too common ;] -
Too bad, because I'd like to be able to say in one word again that:
- I believe that there is no such thing as being born into belief and thus having no way out of it
- I believe in not believing anything just because a lot of people do, or it sounds reasonable/logical- but because I feel it that way
(my feelings on that matter have so far been unchanged)
- I believe that it is unwise to be close-minded about a matter such as this (or any matter, come to think of it  Slipgate - Wink) - there's a  lot of interesting thoughts that a brain can toy with on this subject, too
- And, I've been having a feeling that it doesn't really matter what you believe - and more importantly, that it doesn't really matter what others' beliefs are.
« Last Edit: 2003-02-18, 14:27 by Tabun » Logged

Tabun ?Morituri Nolumus Mori?
Atom235
 
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« Reply #31 on: 2003-02-18, 16:52 »

Quote from: Phoenix
Well, you can't be an athiest and worship the devil at the same time, since being athiest means you don't believe a devil exists, so it can't be Satanistic.  </color>





 
That's a common misinterpretion caused by your language. Satanist is a man who is atheists, but he's view of the world is pessimistic. He believes that evil is the prevailing force of the universe. He worships no deities.

Satan worshipper is totally different guy. He DOES worship the devil. He may even sacrifice animals and drink their blood. He may call himself a Satanist , too. I think that satan worshipping makes this much sense:
 Idiot  

I remember a good paradox invented by a high-school friend of mine. For God being omnipotent, he must be able to create a rock that he can't lift. But if he can't lift it, he can't be omnipotent. If he can't create a rock that he can't lift, it also means that  is not omnipotent. So... this should prove that if God exists, he can't be omnipotent.

If some creature comes from the sky and claims to be God, it could be easily tested. We could send a nuke without any warning and blow it up upon impact. If he truly is a God the creature must be able to shield itself from approx 20 000 000 K - 100 000 000 K temps, millions of atmospheres of pressure and shitloads of all kinds of radiation.
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Daedalus
 

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« Reply #32 on: 2003-02-18, 18:53 »

Always with the nukes aye Atom?

Can you solve anything without a nuke?
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Atom235
 
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« Reply #33 on: 2003-02-18, 19:51 »

I can brush my teeth without the urge of blowing up a nuke, Daed.
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dev/null
 
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« Reply #34 on: 2003-02-19, 01:44 »

Quote from: Atom235
I remember a good paradox invented by a high-school friend of mine.
Wow, you're high-school friend must be a pretty well recognized theologizer, because I've seen that exact same example in numerous other places.

Whatever the case may be though, I've always been fond of that one Slipgate - Smile

If you want to think a little out of the box though, I'd suggest looking here: http://www.dur.ac.uk/r.a.worthington/qsd.html
« Last Edit: 2003-02-19, 01:47 by dev/null » Logged
Phoenix
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« Reply #35 on: 2003-02-19, 02:59 »

Quote from: Atom235
I remember a good paradox invented by a high-school friend of mine. For God being omnipotent, he must be able to create a rock that he can't lift. But if he can't lift it, he can't be omnipotent. If he can't create a rock that he can't lift, it also means that  is not omnipotent. So... this should prove that if God exists, he can't be omnipotent.
I have the answer to this little test, but it only works if you believe the bible.  According to the bible, God is triune, that is, a single being, but with three distinct facets of that being - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  The Holy Spirit permeates everything and keeps reality working, and nudges people's conscience at times.  The Father is the "source" as it were, and the law maker and judge.  The "guy on the throne surrounded by angels" as He's so commonly depicted in art.  The Son, well, just read the Gospel for the details there, but we know that to be Christ, the Savior for all souls.  So how does that explain how God can create a rock He cannot Himself lift while still being omnipotent?  Simple.  God the father has the power to remove entire stars and planets from their orbits if he wishes, or to crumple creation up into a little ball.  Think fire and brimstone on Soddom and Gamorrah here.  Christ, as a mortal man, obviously cannot lift a heavy boulder if he was whipped, nailed to a cross, and died before rising again.  What the Father can do, that is, move this heavy boulder, Christ in a mortal human form could not, but both are still God, therefore your paradox is fulfilled.  

Learn to think outside of 3 dimensions and the constraints of linear logic, and you'll begin to understand the universe better.  Slipgate - Tongue
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Byskwik
 
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« Reply #36 on: 2003-02-19, 03:20 »

umm... pho, that only works if you believe in the trinity, which is not biblically based per se.
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Phoenix
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« Reply #37 on: 2003-02-19, 04:43 »

Byskwik, I must respectully correct you.  The trinity IS biblical.  I really didn't want to get into quoting chapter and verse, but I find it necessary to show this to be true.

Matthew 3:16 - And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water, and lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: (17) And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

1) You have "A voice from heaven" speaking
2) You have "the Spirit of God" descending and lighting upon him
3) You have the voice in heaven (while the Spirit mentioned is not in heaven) saying "This is my son"

Right there you have the trinity.  Want more proof?  God is plural in the Old Testament:

Genesis 1:26 - And God said, Let us create man in our own image...

God is referring to Himself as "us".

Even more proof?  Ok, fine, no problem there.

Titus 2:13 - Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ

Here the "great God" is referred to AS CHRIST.  Equating the two.  If it appears gramatically uncertain, then maybe this will suffice.

Colossians 2:6 - As you  have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk you in him... (9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Emphasis mine.  This is saying God is also contained within Christ bodily.  Still not convinced?  Ok, here you go.

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  (2)The same was in the beginning with God.  (3)All things were made by him and without him was not any thing made that was made.... (14) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,(and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Christ we know is the only begotten Son of God in the bible, and is referred to here as the "Word made flesh", and then it states the "Word was God".

Here's the kicker.

First John 5:7 - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one[/i]

You cannot say the trinity is not biblical if you believe the bible.  It's right there, plain for all to see. Slipgate - Smile
« Last Edit: 2003-02-19, 04:50 by Phoenix » Logged


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Byskwik
 
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« Reply #38 on: 2003-02-19, 04:50 »

Next time a Jehovah's Witness comes to your door ask them about it. It has to do with your translation. I won't get into it now, since I'll admit it's been a few years since I've studied and I'm not perfectly clear on all of the details.
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« Reply #39 on: 2003-02-19, 05:13 »

Forgive me, but I'm at a bit of a loss here.  Why should I ask a Jehovah's Witness?  The Jehovah's Witnesses are considered a "fringe" group by a lot of people, and what I've seen of their doctrine in the past disturbed me.  And why should I accept their doctrine over what the bible says itself, because they say so?  Should I believe anyone off the street who "claims to know something"?  I don't believe the banjo-slapping goody-goodies on TV who say everything from rock music to playing Doom to having hair longer than your color results in hellfire and damnation either.  Who are they or anyone else to tell me what's truth and what's not?  I think I can discern that on my own quite well.  And what's wrong with my translation of the bible?  Did elves get into my book and re-arrange the pages on me while I wasn't looking?  Can they prove this?  I could consult a few scholars who know the original Hebrew and Greek if I wanted to, or even consult the Latin Vulgate to see what is said verbatim if I wanted to, but why bother?  My purpose here was NOT in debating the validity of the bible itself, it was merely to point out that this is what it says and then to follow it to its logical conclusion.  My qualifier in my last post, "If you believe the bible", is a big part of that.  You either believe the bible or you don't.  If someone does not believe it, then what I said is irrelevant to their worldview, and it matters not to them.  If on the other hand you think someone else "re-wrote" the bible then I would suggest learning Greek and Hebrew, studying the original scrolls, and then you'll know for sure instead of having to take someone on their word.  I tend to take a fairly skeptical view of people who say this or that has been rewritten or changed without offering anything of concrete proof.  If that's the case, and if that's what you've been told, then my advice would be ignore what others have told you, and seek the truth for yourself, on your own, instead of buying into someone else's version of it.
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