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Author Topic: "Anyone but Bush" (Al Qaeda choice for president)  (Read 20304 times)
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Phoenix
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« Reply #40 on: 2004-08-17, 05:12 »

I prefer people to be blunt and plain spoken, and I'm glad you're willing to put down what you think and why.  There are a lot of people who will talk much but say little, and I prefer people to just speak their minds.  I do not think lower of you for what you've said about your life's circumstances either.  Far from it.  From what you say I can see that you're frustrated with all that has gone wrong in the world, you're unhappy the US has screwed up as much as it has over the last few decades, and you're wishing there was some way it could all be fixed up.  I have no problem with that.  I watched the US completely screw over Bosnia.  I have friends in the military who had to sit around playing cards 100 miles away from where people were being butchered by the Serb army, who wanted to go in and put a stop to it, but were ordered to do absolutely nothing because they had a commander in chief who was more worried about his poll numbers than the lives of those people so decided "better some Albanain civilian than any US ground troops or I might look bad."  He told me there was a 10 year old girl there at the refugee camp.  She didn't speak, she wouldn't say anything.  She had been raped repeatedly by the Serb army while she had to watch them murder her parents and her older sister.  You think hearing that sort of thing doesn't make me hopping mad?  I don't think the US is innocent, a lot of policy mistakes are made, but that doesn't mean I'm against trying just because a mistake might be made.  I'd rather see someone try to make the right choice and choose poorly than make no choice at all out of fear and hesitation or personal self-interest.  As for Abu Graihb, yes that is inexcusable, and the commanding officer(s) directly in charge of that need to be punished for it.

I personally don't think anarchy is ever going to solve anything myself.  A lack of power only invites in bullies to claim that power.  You end up with the strong ruling over the weak by force until someone stronger comes in to knock them down.  That's the way the earth was for thousands of years, one warlord picking a fight with another.  Maybe now it's just been replaced with nations and more complex political alliances, but really the same problem will exist no matter what mankind does.  At least in a democracy you are given some form of say.  The US used to have limited government.  Those days are gone, but there are people who are still working and trying to get it back.  There is no such thing as a perfect government.  All you can do is try to work for one that is least intrusive into people's lives while insuring at the same time that its citizenry isn't left completely vulnerable to outside aggression.

I know about the IRA over in Ireland, and hate groups in the US, the contras in South America, etc.  Sure, they've got their private little wars, but they're not going into countries half-way around the world and blowing up buildings, and (usually) not trying to take over entire regions.  Most of these fights are more akin to civil wars, or localized insurgency.  Yes, it's still a problem, and the US does get its fingers in the political pie in a lot of places.  The Soviet Union was doing the exact same thing at the time as well.  The Cold War drove both super powers to interfere with the internal development of a lot of nations.  Look at how many satelite countries the Soviets annexed illegally.  Romania, Poland, half of Germany...  The US was out to prevent Communism from spreading owing to the threat of nuclear war.  That's a pretty strong motivation, especially when you consider the Cuban Missile Crisis which damned near led to just that.  When you're under that kind of pressure you end up doing drastic things that while they may not be right, they are sometimes necessary.  It's an evil situation that you  have to try to deal with the best you can.

I don't particularly care for the US propping up people like Saddam in the first place.  I understand why it was done, but again hindsight is clearer than foresight.  Mistakes were made, and now that's the current task is cleaned it all up.  The US should have taken Saddam down the first time, but the idea at the time was he could be contained, and again we had a president who was more worried about re-election and "UN cooperation" than actually finishing the job (Bush 41).  If it wasn't for the UN and it's bloody cowardice there wouldn't BE a war in Iraq right now.  Instead they decided to pass resolution after resolution after resolution and do absolutely nothing to enforce them.  Someone had to step up to the plate because the rest of the world either had monetary interests in keeping Saddam in power or lacked the backbone and ability to enforce what the world had supposedly decided on - disarmament, disclosure OF disarmament, or regime change.  When Saddam kicked the weapons inspectors out he pretty much nailed his own coffin shut.  The alternative - doing nothing - would show not only terrorists but rogue states that the UN and the US were too weak-kneed to follow up on their rhetoric, which would only serve to further polarize anti-western sentiment.  Instead of a war on terror, you'd have countries like Iran and Iraq developing and building nuclear weapons for use on each other and against anyone they felt like at the time.  Iran is STILL after nuclear weapons and almost has them, North Korea claims to have them, and Pakistan and India already do.  The US isn't the only screwball in the world when it comes to foreign policy either.  Russia is behind 90% of the illegal sale of nuclear equipment to Iran, France and Germany were both selling arms illegally to Iraq prior to the US invasion, and Pakistan's chief nuclear scientist is over there in Iran showing these people how to build nuclear bombs.  What do you think these Mullahs are going to do with them once they have enough of them?

If you want to talk about disillusionment I'm the worst of the lot.  I have absolutely NO faith in mankind whatsoever to solve anything in the long term.  I can only hope for damage control in the mean time prior to a more permanent solution being enacted from someone with greater authority and moral clarity than man.  That is the goal I am working towards.  I do not know what religious beliefs you may have, if any, but I myself believe strongly that God will not sit idly while the earth tears itself to shreds.  If anything I've seen more evidence in the last two years that all the prophecies concerning a reckoning between God and those who are destroying the earth is almost at hand.  Until that comes to pass I will support the United States's and anyone else's efforts to stand up to anyone who desires to supplant self-determination and individual freedom with a police state or dictatorship.  This includes people within the US government as well.
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Hedhunta
 
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« Reply #41 on: 2004-08-17, 14:28 »

... SST didnt seem fascist to me, im pretty sure they held elections, so im not sure where youre getting that. propaganda et all, thats how life is, theres always someone out there willing to tell you what to do, pulling another quote from that movie(since i love it so much) "the freedom to choose is the only real freedom anyone has, make up your own mind" maybe it 'looked' fascist, but everyone still had the right to choose life, choose citizenship, etc. hardly fascist(since fascism is the definition of anti-choice), if anything it was closer to socialist/communist where the govt provided for everyone on a basic level, and everyone was free to choose how they wanted to live. the difference is in SST you were RESPONSIBLE for your actions, look at the murder case in that movie where hes immediately sentenced to death. thats not to say they did that without evidence, im sure they had highly advanced forensics in the future that would allow them to KNOW he was guilty, but there was none of the putzing around "should we kill him?" " what about his rights?" shit that we have going on today for serial killers and their kin.
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Skullhunter
 
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« Reply #42 on: 2004-08-18, 19:45 »

Hedhunta, they had elections, but only people who'd served in the military (and thereby displayed their allegiance to the state) could vote in them. Their government was a military tribunal, installed after the previous governments were overthrown in a military coup. They did have "freedom" of a sort, but only as long as they did what the government ordered, as illustrated by the Mormon group attempting to settle in an Arachnid-controlled area. They were left to be slaughtered, you get the idea that they were "allowed" to do so only that their grisly deaths might serve as an example to others. Fascism does tend to look a lot like state socialism (a'la Stalin) under many circumstances, they're both pretty much the same idea, the individual serves and sacrifices for the good of the collective society. Of course, having them be a direct copy of white supremacist Nazi Germany would have been too obvious; instead they're speciesist, human supremacists. They openly plan to wipe the Arachnids out completely, genocide. The enemy is reduced to a faceless monstrosity, referred to by a one-word epithet "bugs", reminiscent of how Germans referred to the Jews (or the US referred to the Japanese, for that matter). I didn't notice it the first time through either, but everybody thinks that white supremacy is a central characteristic of fascism; if they don't see that, they don't think it's fascism.
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Hedhunta
 
Chton
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« Reply #43 on: 2004-08-19, 22:00 »

sp theyre fascist for wanting to eliminate a species that is trying to eliminate them? ive watched that movie a hundred times, it has and never will seem fascist, indefinately maybe a satire on propaganda at times, but noone in that movie was forced to do anything(well until they joined, which they CHOSE to join), and even the people that werent 'citizens' sure seemed to have pretty decent lives(listen to the stories each of them tell in the shower room of where theyre from) and get to choose how they want to live. i still stand by saying that SST was NOT fascist at all. was it a world govt run by a tribunal of people that have served and learned respect for life, freedom, etc? yes, but then that would be an oligarchy would it not, being run by a small group of people, but since a good majority of people have probably served, that doesnt even hold up
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Phoenix
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« Reply #44 on: 2004-08-20, 07:11 »

Well it's funny considering the EU and the UN want to tell the whole world what to do that nobody seems to harp on that fact except the "right-wing nutballs" and the rabid anarchists.  Am I not correct in this?  Doesn't everyone who's "progressive" think the entire world needs to "respect the will of the international community"?  What's the difference whether the world is run by a great big council or a rather small one?

Besides, we're talking about a science-fiction movie here.  It's just a movie.  What kind of relevence does any of this have to the topic at hand?
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