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Thomas Mink
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Yea. On my recent trend of updating Bad Place, I have a partial invisible platform built with a botclip at the end of the quad nook to help the bots better jump across to it. Sometimes you can notice it when they decide to fight from the edge of the ledge, just kind of standing in midair.. but oh well. If a player tries to fight up there while standing on that same area, he'll find himself taking a lava bath. Didn't really know botclips worked liked that though, in relation to walls, floors, and ceilings. But now that I think about it, it makes quite a lot of sense. Definitely a good bit of info to know about. Thank you for sharing it.  |
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Tabun
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Ok. Here's beta 3: tabq1dm5_beta3.zipHave to run now, but I'll add a list of changes here later. Note(s): - Pure still needs tweaking of the lighting @ the water.
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| Tabun |
?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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Thomas Mink
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I love all of the subtle changes that were made. On their own, it might not be much.. but add them all together and it's quite nice. A few examples are the blackness on the wood that was toned down, the slowing of the teleport shader, the floating debris in the water, and I think something was done with the checkerboard floor tiles.. but I'm not sure if that's just me thinking something was changed, or if it really was. Anyway, the shortcuts that were added are a bit weird to me.. then again, it was my first time playing the map with such shortcuts in place.. but they're not too overbearing, and they still hold the map's overall feel, kinda like the bricks that were added at the bottom of that pit in the previous version. Bots seem to act a bit more intelligently, so I can only assume that your redoing of the clips was a success, and they use some of the shortcuts quite well. Bit annoying when they decide to clump and fight at the one added in the long hallway, but that's just me nitpicking bot behavior not your map. I know they love to clump together and have group orgies.. gradually moving around to other places in the map. Single bots won't roam the entire map (oddly enough, this was the first time I ever tested this map with a single bot). Put the bot in a fighting situation where it needs to find health.. and then the entire map gets used (minus some of the shortcuts, of course). So, that's nice to see. They do have some strange 'zig-zag' type behavior however, like before they enter the MH room they have to touch each corner of the doorway first for some reason. In short, an already impressive piece of work got even better. Excellent stuff.  |
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Tabun
Pixel Procrastinator
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Thanks! Actually, I just reworked some more stuff. Again, little things, relatively speaking. The big "button-room" has a new roof, the doorways look much nicer now, and I fixed some small annoying imperfections... But I think it's almost time to really call it a day. Shouldn't get out of hand.. |
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| Tabun |
?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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Thomas Mink
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I know Pho mentioned it back somewhere around the first test release, but I feel it worth mentioning again (since up till now I had it filed under 'a couple of the things Phoenix already mentioned'). The burn marks behind those two torches in the teleport room without the Q-symbol have some z-fighting on my end as well. I get it without fullbright enabled, so that wasn't the case. You can see it in this screenie. The burn mark on the right disappeared during the z-fighting.. while the one on the left is somewhat fuzzed with the wall. I actually took the shot in vanilla Q3 as well, so that was interesting for me. . Since it's not there for you, though, I'm not quite sure how it could be fixed. Just figured I'd actually (finally) mention that I see it too, so it's not only Pho. Other than that, everything look great to me. |
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Tabun
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Hmmm. If it's not r_znear, then I have no clue what may be going on there. I checked them again in the editor, but it's clean. If for some reason polygonOffset is failing in only that case.. no clues. Shaders, technique and placement are all the same for those soot marks and all the others. :/
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| Tabun |
?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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Phoenix
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I ran out of time today with the hardware changes, so I'll try to get a look at the updated version tomorrow.
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  I fly into the night, on wings of fire burning bright...
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Tabun
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No worries. There's a new, final version out now, anyway. I've done all I could on this one, and it's time to move on. I know you won't like it, but I did decide to keep the alternative teleport destination for the non-pure version -- It grew on me, and I like the way it can tense up a tourney battle over the RA. Final version sent off to lvlworld. Download here: tabq1dm5.zip |
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| Tabun |
?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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Phoenix
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I was hoping to do a final bug test before you got things wrapped up, but at least you caught me before I started. I'll definitely give the map some play though. I haven't had a chance to look at it since beta2. 
Edit: Well I only found one glitch that stood out, and that's in the pure version the mega health is turned so that the Strogg health item faces sideways when in the switch room.
The standard version rocks. The shortcuts make sense, are useful, and do not detract from the gameplay. Actually it adds some extra variety to the combat, which made the map a bit more fun. Surprise attacks at the busted column were common. The item layout on the standard version seems to fit the map perfectly. In Gen, the bots know what to do. They roamed the entire map, fought anywhere and everywhere, actually knew how to use the button, though did not always enter the room if they were distracted by a potential victim, went after the armor, and generally played a hell of a lot better. The bots hitching the map is gone as well, in both versions. The extra teleport destination works where you have it. What's kind of neat is if someone wants to be a bitch they can camp the lightning gun and nail people coming off the teleporter, but you can also escape by going up the blocks if you're clever, and someone wanting to remove the camper just needs one railgun shot down the bottom floor from the stairs side to get someone off the LG. It's a nice balance of potential hazards for all parties. I love how the map plays now. I only tested it out in Gen, but it's damned good in Gen so it'll be good in Q3 as well. I love the teleport symbol, btw. If we get some Doom maps that involve a teleporter, that would make a nice a nice base for "evil" symbols on the floor... I'm thinking animated versions of the red tiles used in Doom. Visually everything is good on both maps. The weapon spawn marks fit perfect - just enough to let you know something is there, but not glaring and annoying.
I noticed the pure version got some visual updates as well. Bots also seem to navigate the pure version better. Did you update the bot clipping there too? Either way, excellent work. I think stepping back a bit gave me a fresher perspective. Other than the mega health facing the wrong way, I'd say both versions are pretty much Cistern Perfected.
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« Last Edit: 2009-10-28, 20:35 by Phoenix »
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Thomas Mink
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Playing through the map again, I sadly did notice a few texture misalignments that I didn't see before. They mostly pertain to a few of the updated curved archways (or rather, the walls serving as the caps of the curve), so I apologize for not really checking them before. I saw the updates made to them at the time, but the walls went unnoticed. Anyway... 01 - The arch at the bottom of the pit. Both sides, but it's more noticeable from the LG side. Both pure and non have it. 02 - The arch at the back of the MH room. Both map versions. 03 - The arch over the MH-room door. Oddly, only the pure version has this.. and even more oddly, only the side facing the button. 04 - Not the arch, but the right side of the arch at the GL(pure)/SG(non).. there's a slim bit of misaligned texture running up along the wall. I turned fullbright on to try and get a better shot, due to it being a bit dark in that area.. so I also caught the bit of weirdness seen in the shot as well. Oh.. both versions of the map again. |
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Tabun
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Sloppy. I've done some editing on the doorways and copied them over here and there (even between map versions). Should have fixed the alignment afterwards, but apparantly forgot to do so. Too bad. Thankfully, it doesn't catch the eye too much. The long vertical misalignment between the two doorways can't be helped, but I know about it - this is the best I can do without using a patch (and getting bad lighting problems instead ). By the way, you're using really low subdivision/lodcurve settings there! Having FPS-trouble? I thought I had all items facing the right way, but it seems I have been sloppy even there! Oh well, another thing I can live with. Odd how these things only seem to pop up when you've actually released the final. :] Teaches me for thinking I'd ever really be done with it. Edit: it's really weird, but I have the MH facing the right way in the editor (in both versions, too). It's rotated counterclockwise 90 degrees like it should be. I have no idea why it would be incorrectly rotated in the fixed up version of Generations.. I did update the botclipping for both maps (pretty much copied over the new nonpure clipping to the pure version), so yes, that should be playing a bit better now, too. The bots still just tend to swim and get lighting-owned, but pure is rather for playing with real people anyway, I hope. :] Thank you both for your alpha- and beta-testing this map for me, by the way. It's really helped getting me from rookie mapper to one of the semi-pros in no time. :] |
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« Last Edit: 2009-10-28, 22:03 by Tabun »
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| Tabun |
?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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Tabun
Pixel Procrastinator
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Really odd. Presumably a GTKradiant bug, then. I rotate items by clicking toolbar buttons that do 90 degree clockwise rotation for X, Y and Z separately. I rechecked and it's true, the angle has a really weird value. Probably went wrong with copy-pasting at some time. Dang. I've fixed it in the editor, just in case I do ever need to recompile it for other reasons..
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| Tabun |
?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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tryhard
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What can i say...
This map looks and plays great as far as i can tell from playing it against bots in vq3 and generations.
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Tabun
Pixel Procrastinator
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Posts: 3330
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| Tabun |
?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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Phoenix
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It's about time someone got around to reviewing it. 8.2 score so far. Nifty!
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I fly into the night, on wings of fire burning bright...
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