ReBoOt
Mean ol Swede
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thanks pho yeah thats what i meant
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Tabun
Pixel Procrastinator
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Righto. It is not so much a white line as the highlighted top of a beveled area. I purposedly didn't repeat that for the section the light is in, as the light itself would overlap and make the bevel weirdish. Also, any consistency issues that might have worried me are made void by the fact that the light sections are indented and aren't immediately connected to the non-light surfaces. :]
Understood and noted, but not something I'm willing to spend time and effort on while there's 8/10ths of a map to make.
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| Tabun |
?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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Woolie Wool
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Hmm. Going full purist isn't my thing. That would mean making perfect-matching textures and using them in horrible ways. Instead, I've got this, so far: http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/tabd2map01_pre02.jpgThe only thing I'm somewhat worried about is the scale. It looks to be rather a bit upscaled in comparison, but the texture units/size match. I know Quake 3 needs big enough spaces for enjoyable playing, but it does mean players are un-doomishly small. Since there is no way to scale whole groups of brushes altogether without destroying texture placement (correct me if I'm wrong, please!), there's no acceptable way for me to change the size. I'll just keep going and hope it won't kill the map. http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/tabd2map01_pre02_scale.jpgEdit: I can correct myself. Rescaling the entire map was easier than I'd expected. I expected most textures (especially slanted/rotated ones) to shift all over the place. Turns out I was wrong. I can now find a good size in between Doom-scale and Q3A-playable-scale. http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/tabd2map01_pre02_scale_2.jpgHow many players do you want? MAP01 is almost exclusively a 1-on-1 map in Doom, and a very good 1-on-1 map. It's not designed to have six people running around in it.
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Tabun
Pixel Procrastinator
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I sense the slight smell of critique in that post, so I'll respond accordingly . For a quick answer: I want it to be an FFA map. For a long one, see the "spoiler". First, I'm not so sure d2map01 is a 1on1 map. I'm not much of a DooM player, I'll give you that, but I've heard people say otherwise. Second, there are other things to consider in regards to deciding on the scale: 1) it will be used in Generations, not in Doom III Arena, so it must suit other classes to some degree aswell, 2) I will not have hallways in which jumping makes you bump your head against the ceiling, for various and obvious reasons, 3) Gameplay differs in Generations, even when it's Doom vs Doom class play. Dodging and knockback don't work the same as in DooM, and more space helps a lot to keep gameplay fun, 4) Doom's reduced speed will make it more easily possible for more players to enjoy the map, in Generations. Third and finally, matching scale is impossible from 3rd pov, making strict purism scaling impossible (unless we alter the size of the game's models, perhaps). I have made some progress: tabd2map01_pre03.jpgSome things (most notably the lighting) are still very much WIP here. I'm playing around with textures and light fixtures. Not in the screenshots: I'm working on the blue-carpeted room and I've got the lifts working and looking nice. Too bad you can't make a brush both a func_button and (part of) a func_plat. If that were possible (please correct me if I'm wrong here), I could have made it work just like in DooM...
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| Tabun |
?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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Phoenix
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[rant]And before anyone asks: No. I will not code 100% pure Doom physics. Doom was 2.5D and used polar vectors, and used a peer-to-peer network scheme. Q3 works in full 3D and uses a client-server model with local prediction. I'm not rewriting the entire physics code just so people can wall run. Doom's fast enough. You wanna go faster? Grab the haste.[/rant]
As far as map01 being a 1 vs 1 map, let me clear something up here. Map01 is a single player map that is overplayed for 1 vs 1 games. As far as design and layout goes it sucks for 1 vs 1 and here's why:
1) Map layout. The map is a U-shaped hallway with three blind terminated rooms. 2) Weapon loadout. Two BFG's in the same room with a SSG and Rocket launcher? 3) Reliance on physics tricks. You can either "bump" the plasma rifle or get killed going up the lift. 4) Camp factor.
All 1 vs 1 games I've seen on Map01 consist of the following tactics. First, you grab the nearest gun then head to the hallway. If you're lucky you'll spawn on the BFG pad or near the SSG room. Once you kill the other guy, you pitch a tent at the corner opposite the chaingun and listen for respawns. You then proceed to spawnkill the other guy repeatedly using either the SSG, rockets, or the BFG. Whoever camps and spawnkills best wins.
How do I know this is so? I've watched enough games. In addition, I don't play this way myself but I've played people who do. I also tend to move into rooms players tend to avoid and use weapons they don't favor. For example, most Doom 2 players seem to use the SSG and only the SSG. I've unaffectionately labeled it the "noob cannon" as a result of this. It's like Slipgate's rockets - Doom 2 players are one-gun wonders. I will use any weapon I can get, and I tend to favor rockets and plasma. If I can I go out of my way not to use the SSG. First, I do it to show the lamers that there are other guns and yes they work. Second, it throws them off. Doom 2 players ALWAYS go for the SSG, so by avoiding it and using other guns they're unsure of how to deal with me. One good example is the single shotgun available if you open the outdoor area (which I like to do). I had one guy trying to stay in the central hall and potshot me with the SSG down the hallway from around the corner. I pegged him 3 times with the single shotgun - which patterns tighter at that range - and killed him. I've also used the silent BFG trick and correctly predicted respawning players would run immediately to the SSG room and camp the door. A BFG down the long hall and a shot into the doorway provides nice double-flash surprise. I've won my share of 1 vs 1 games on map01, and I've played some 3-4 player deathmatches there too.
As far as I'm concerned, there is a tremendous nostalgia factor associated with the map and that is the only reason it's something we want to remake. We've all played there and, back when Doom 2 was new and deathmatch was new, the concept of good deathmatch level design was something that had not yet developed. If someone presented a brand new map with the weapons and item layout that map01 has and map01 never existed, it would be rejected as a horrible map. Keep in mind too - I'm an oldschool Doom 1 player, not a Doom 2 player. Doom 1 deathmatch plays much, much different from Doom 2.
All that being said... it is a classic, high-nostalgia map and because of it's venerated status among Doomers - of which I am one of the old-school variety - a proper remake is something we want. Remixed slightly for Gen (for scale purposes) it should be a great place to frag, especially when you throw a mix of classes in. Playing the Gen version 1 vs 1 I think will be much more interesting then playing the actual map in Doom 2. I know I like playing Bad Place, Gloom Keep, and The Dark Zone better in Gen than I do in Quakeworld, and I don't mean that just as a shameless plug. I really prefer the varied gameplay and slightly larger scale to the maps. Even Slipgate vs Slipgate I like it better. I think the same will hold true with this remake.
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« Last Edit: 2007-09-24, 14:47 by Phoenix »
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scalliano
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Posts: 1095
Yup, that's me
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Looking good! It's nice to see a Doom remake that actually looks like Doom for a change. Also, it makes me wonder whatever happened to Devlar's Canyon (PSX Fnal Doom) remake from a few years back. Never actually saw the light of day as I recall ...
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PSN ID: scalliano
The Arena knows no gender, colour or creed, only skill.
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Phoenix
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I had never seen it myself. I know he was working on a Q1 start map remake that never was completed. The only map I know of that he finished is devsever.
Tab: Forgot in my last post to say, looking good. The outdoor area near the sp spawn looks very Doomy with that sky.
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Lopson
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Posts: 1133
Still Going In Circles
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think someone has already made a remake of this map before, as well as a remake of d1e1m1. Still, the d2 map looks awesome Tab. Are you using original textures, or the ones made for the jDooM re-texturing project?
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Phoenix
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The Tabinator... using someone else's textures? Surely you jest! It's all home-grown Tab there.
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Tabun
Pixel Procrastinator
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I am using some textures by others! For one thing, the blue carpet in (what I appropriately call) the blue room (not depicted yet) is a texture by Lunaran (the one you can also find in mksteel), and so is the blue techno-stuff in the panels next to the door. Then one or two textures are default Q3 textures. One texture is from the Jdoom pack (which by the way ripped and destroyed tons of my textures, being so nice as to claim I've actually made the mess that they distributed). That one texture is the circuit boardish stuff that is on the walls in the room that sits before the RL spawn niche.
But that's it. All other textures are by my own hand. I expect that I'll be making a lot more, but I will be using some premade stuff for rocks and light fixtures. No need to reinvent the wheel (when it's not a shabby wheel, that is).
For one thing, many people have remade d2map01, and for pretty much every other game that was released after, or previously before, DooM was. True as that may be, it is equally true that 9 out of 10 of those remakes suck worse than my transsexual prostitute aunt. Perhaps some are fun to play, but look horrible, or simply nothing like the original, but none are anywhere near good enough. Some aren't even remakes, but far-fetched remixes (like, f.i. Amphetamine's version). Most are downright horrid. Mine, if anything, will be a nostalgia version, and if I get things right, one that won't err on the side of ugliness.
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| Tabun |
?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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Phoenix
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Alright... so I was wrong on something. There. Everyone throw a party or something.
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scalliano
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Yup, that's me
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I had never seen it myself. I know he was working on a Q1 start map remake that never was completed. The only map I know of that he finished is devsever.
The thread is here but the screens appear to have taken a dive with the hack. Oh well.
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PSN ID: scalliano
The Arena knows no gender, colour or creed, only skill.
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Tabun
Pixel Procrastinator
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You were only slightly wrong, so perhaps only a tiny party is in order? ;]
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| Tabun |
?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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Phoenix
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Ahh, I remember this now Scal. I forgot what the map was but I do remember him having a shader difficulty.
Tab: How about a Gen party!
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I fly into the night, on wings of fire burning bright...
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scalliano
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Posts: 1095
Yup, that's me
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WHEN??? The party, that is. Er...
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« Last Edit: 2007-09-25, 18:57 by scalliano »
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PSN ID: scalliano
The Arena knows no gender, colour or creed, only skill.
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Kain-Xavier
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Tab: I find your lack of partying disturbing... but I find your DOOM map aesthetically pleasing. Keep up the good work. Darth 'Gater out.
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Lopson
Elite
Posts: 1133
Still Going In Circles
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One texture is from the Jdoom pack (which by the way ripped and destroyed tons of my textures, being so nice as to claim I've actually made the mess that they distributed). That one texture is the circuit boardish stuff that is on the walls in the room that sits before the RL spawn niche. I had no idea you were the author of that texture! And I also had no idea that some of your work is used on that pack. Back on topic: As long as the party is on a weekend, then fine by me, as long as it isn't in next week's weekend.
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Tabun
Pixel Procrastinator
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You misread: the texture mentioned is actually one of the very few that I didn't make. The other part is correct though, my door texture is in that pack, and it's also cut and pasted good to make other textures from it, for instance.
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| Tabun |
?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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death_stalker
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Hey Tab, were you ever able to work out the problem with your Q2 map? Just looking at the screens on it made my eye bug O_O !! Plus that DooM map. Strangely familiar. heh
I know, old topic. I was just curious.
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Tabun
Pixel Procrastinator
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The only real problem that map suffers from, so far, is that it's starting to get a bit themeless, a bit like a bunch of juggled brushes. I've still got it sitting around here, and there's enough acceptable sections in it to press for a release later, but I'm working on the Doom map first.
Both are pretty much on hold at the moment, though. I've always had difficulty doing one thing (studying) and another (gen-devving) without letting the flow of one slow to a trickle..
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| Tabun |
?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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