Nothing really annoys me about the map and item layout. Both versions offer a similar, yet unique experience.. but the custom layout is starting to grow on me.

Testing with other people would probably be a lot better though, I agree.

So far the what really seems to bug me on the non-pure version is the item arrangement in and around the room that would normally have the shotgun, rocket launcher, and BFG.  The mega health being up there in a spawn area means someone's going to spawn with a lot of health and not much for a weapon, or get a heavily-armed player in their face looking for a powerful item.  Does the map really even need the megahealth?  We have a regen that spawns near the red armor, and there's plenty of health packs floating around.  It seems counter-intuitive to place it there if players are going to spawn in there.

Some suggestions for alteration in that area... I'd remove the 50 health from the chainsaw spawn point and replace that with a bullet box.  Swap the shotgun ammo on the lower BFG spawn with a 25 point health pack, same with the box of bullets, and replace the megahealth with either a shotgun or rocket launcher weapon, preferably a rocket launcher.  I think the grenade launcher should be moved to the chaingun's original spawn and the 25 point healthpack in that corner nixed.  This arrangement would do a few things.  First, it would give an alternative to the hallway spawn as the only rocket launcher on the map.  Someone spawning on the ledge in the former-BFG-room will have more of a fighting chance to get out.  Second, the healthpacks being on the lower floor will not make the room such a deathtrap to enter back into, and will give more impetus for players in the hallway to enter back into the room.  It also gives you an escape from the hall other than ducking into the Blue Room.  That, combined with the spawn having a rocket launcher, will make for more encounters in that room.  Putting the GL in the hall where the chaingun would normally be will give someone fighting in the hall some kind if gun if stuck between the big spawn room and the blue room, and I think more grenade action will be seen spawning it there.  Right now, having it on the stairs it doesn't get as much action as it could.  I know with the Thunderbolt spawning there in the pure version it has a huge impact on hallway fights.  I also would reduce the timer on the plats in the blue room to 1 minute or 30 seconds.  Two minutes just seems a bit long.  I think shortening the timer would add some variety to the action in that room.

Other than that, the item arrangement on the map is good.  The exit area is about perfect.  Moving the LG into the exit room makes it dangerous to go for, but also rewarding, the yellow armor is a plus in that secret door, and having the red armor outside with the regen makes the outdoors a powerful area but also dangerous to go after as everyone is going to hear that switch thrown and know what you're doing.  Gameplay from the blue room into the exit room is damned nice once I got used to the item placement.  Regarding the lack of BFG... For normal Q3 it makes sense to leave it out.  Normal Gen play, Earthers can still bring a BFG into play by dying with dualgats out, so I'm fine with a BFG not spawning on the map once I got everything into context.

I have some ideas for a "tourney" version of the item placement.  The way you have the entry room arranged right now are more in line with what I'd expect to see in a tourney map.  In fact, in a tourney version I'd keep players from spawning on the MH ledge at all.  A grenade, rocket, or trick-jump would be required to get the MH, and being a blind pocket it's dangerous to go after in a 1 vs 1, so it would be perfect arranged like that.  I'd thin out the items on the ledges in the blue room, maybe putting only two shards on each box, so ammo is more scarce in there.  I'd also move the LG to the regen/haste spawn so you have to go outdoors to get it.  I'd also kill the yellow armor in the secret door, replacing it with something like lightning ammo, restore the plasma gun to its normal spot and put a plasma ammo box on the pad where the lightning ammo currently rests.  The red armor spawn is fine where it is, as it's a counter to the MH.

Visually I haven't bugchecked anything, but I love the appearance of the map.  The pure version is about perfect.  No complaints, lighting is lovely, and it's a blast to play. 

Beta2 link is broken.

Damn it ate my post, so again.

Timers for gates and "lift" feels good, but:
With 6 random (2x E, D, A)bots  there is too many rockets in air, I would change starter area RL for invis/lost soul randomly swapping, and box of shells and grenades instead of bullets and rockets. That would give most of classes respawning there single shoty and/or handgrenade to deal with guy searching for powerup.

In blue room with lifts, YA and Double barrel sg, could use small box of health opposite corner to secret, as I felt helpless running away low on hp form hallway massacre.
And a small box of plasma, somewhere between GL and "secret RL" or it's just my feeling getting 20 doom cells from blue room not much to actually hit dodging guy(bot).

And for RA outdoors, powerup could have timer decreased, as for little over 20 minutes of game i felt disappointed not seeing it with the those bullets I got hit, the way to and from opening switch, and that box of shells could be there too, as Phoenix mentioned in now non existing post.

And thats from me so far. 

Link fixed.

Good to know it's not anything serious. 

His "radical" ideas are actually somewhat similar to the overall flow of Dwango5Map01 (Doom 2 remix map, heavily overplayed on Zdaemon), without the 5 million Combat Shotguns scattered through the level.  Would be interesting to see as a remix at some point perhaps.  Focusing on the list... here's my highly opinionated response. 

I don't really have a problem with a reduced health amount in the RL room at the end of the hall.  Having it on the side walls, to me, makes sense because you'll duck there to avoid fire anyway.  Shouldn't it be a bit hazardous to go for the powerful guns?  I think if anything just adding two more 5 point health spheres would be enough so that there's 3 per side.  Upping the total health available to 70 health is too much I think.

I think he's referring to the LG and PG respectively.  The placement felt a little odd at first, but honestly, in that room the health is of benefit when you're getting shot by machinegun-level weapons and are retreating to get a better gun.  If you need the big health, it's available on the lift.  I can't think of any other spots where health is close to the weaponry.  As for putting health in the main corridors, that just doesn't feel right to me.  That's where most of the fragging is going to take place and having the health there just seems kind of pointless.  You want something to draw players into the rooms and move the fights around.  Corridors on a lot of maps I've seen are rarely item heavy unless it's low-point items like shards or small point healths, but since the corridors are a central focal point of this map as opposed to just connections between more important areas, I think they're better off being more spartan.

That's something I had thought about, but that blue room has always been the primary shotgun spawn on the map.  Grenades aren't as useful in big wide rooms, either.  I know this is the non-pure version, but the shotty just feels better staying put, especially when you consider that for Doom and Earth that's a rocket launcher.  I think that would completely screw up the flow of the map.

The bad thing about spawning outdoors is the doorway is a chokepoint, and you have weapons in the room you're going to have to run into.  You'll be facing opponents with a spawn-level weapon that are probably toting a plasma gun or lightning gun that are looking for the red armor.  Unless a weapon spawn is placed outside, that seems like a "bad luck" place to spawn.  You might get the red armor only to get plastered trying to get into the building to grab a weapon.  If player spawns were to go out there, I would want to see something like a shotgun out there as well.  It would have to be a double-barreled shotgun and not a "boomstick" since this version needs to be VQ3 compatible.  I think spawning outside will cut down on the switch usage a lot though, and right now that's part of the map's gimmick, especially with the global switch noise.  That sound alone will guarantee outdoor fights when real players are in the mix and not just bots.  Why destroy that?

I completely disagree here.  Railgun would ruin the map, especially placing a rail next to red armor and a powerup.  That's handing the best players on the map a huge advantage, and the average Quaker is going to get their ass handed to them once the top dog gets that combo - especially if player spawns were placed outside... and really, does every Q3 map have to have a railgun?

The regen and RA is not useless as it is, either.  Real players will go for them, and as for bots, they don't go for them, but I've had no trouble getting past them and out there to get those items.  Once acquired, you can dish out a hell of a lot of damage, especially Earth or Arena grabbing the yellow armor in the closet as well.  Dual gats with 150 armor + regen and a flamethrower for backup is a force to be reckoned with.  In addition, for a 1 vs 1 match, controlling items is a key part of the game.  Making powerful items tricky to get helps balance out the tank/spawnkill-dominate factor by putting an element of danger.  The window plus the chokepoint door means you have cost vs benefit to think of.  As for Slipgate, well, depends on the player, like any class.  I don't think Slipgaters will destroy the ability to get out there and grab the armor.  I think more that they'll try to do so themselves.

Nobody will ever use the lift then.  Do we just want easy access to powerful items?  If the door must stay open, then there needs to be some reason to go up the lift other than going for the switch, but again, you lose that element of the map.

Again, why?  There are other weapons to get to, that's meant to be a one-way spawn, otherwise it's back to removing the player spawn and put MH or something up there and/or getting spawnkilled and pissed off.

Aesthetically I'm not sure this would work.  The area looks nice as it is, and feels balanced out for the plasma gun spawning there.  Besides, you can actually jump up to the window ledge without any trouble.  Reachability isn't the issue, I think it's just a matter of taste.

It looks fine to me the way it is.  Right now the stones emphasize the item placement as opposed to being just decoration.  They draw visual attention to the item spawns.  I think this is a matter of taste for Tabby's discretion, but personally I think sometimes less is better.

I turned up my brightness a bit and it helped, but the light could be upped in those rooms about 10% or so I think.  It is pretty dark.

Damned right, it looks great in there.  Agree 100% there.

Edit:  I should also add that I'm looking at this from the perspective of comparing gameplay of a balanced version of the map vs the original, with wanting to keep the overall flow of the original map intact.  I'm assuming a balanced version is just a toned-down version of the original as far as intent goes toward gameplay as opposed to a radical redesign.  I'm always going to err on the side of caution regarding radical changes when a remake of a classic map is involved.  It's the same approach I take with suggestions regarding changes to Gen - I'm going to put the bar damned high for convincing me why I should change something that was part of the original game.  Map01 is to Doom like Q2DM1 is to Quake 2.  I'm not sure what Aeon's perspective is as I don't know his gaming experience.  I'm not saying his points are invalid, just how I see them in regards to a classic map vs a completely new, completely original level.

Ok. Thanks.

I think AEon is coming from a Q3A/CPMA-type view on gaming. He wants quick action, easily accessible items and weapons, no gimmicks or anything that may hinder ordinary game dynamics. He seems to be a fan of e1m1, but not of map01, so probably not so much of a doom II player. He's very good at what he does; that is, his maps are well received by those who enjoy Q3 in that same way.

Me, I kind of like gimmicks and tricks. When there's a good reason to, nice ways to alter the normal function of Q3 DM are welcome. I'm thinking of Q2DM3's lava tunnel, Q3DM10's health generator, Q3DM11's grenade trigger, et cetera. The way the buttons work in my map is hopefully something comparable to those additions to normal gameplay.


Outside area - open door
I really wanted to keep it open (or let the switch work for 10 minutes or so) from the start, early in the process of making the map. But especially after adding the switch heads-up sound, I think it's one of the cooler features. I really want to keep this myself, now.
Logically, I will not add a player spawn here. If it is to be a sealed room, just allowing lucky players to spawn in it defeats the purpose.

Outside area - additions
I want to try adding a shotgun outdoors, and that would be best served by an added bit of stonework. I don't want walls or anything in there, it should be a dangerously open area that can be assaulted from the window if necessary. If anywhere, I think the SG should be added to the area east of the doorway, so that players will have to decide whether to go for the powerup, the armor, or the weapon first.



Health / Weapons
I will keep the health next to the LG - it is an unappetizing room to run into just to get a gun. Even for classes that need the LG. I have added more health to the PG room though, in nooks and crannies.

I'm keeping the SG/GL where they are. Makes sense to keep 'm this way to me.


Other changes
Beginning platform will remain as it is.

I have added a step to the staircase before the window, though. I don't think it looks all that different. I'll let you guys see how it looks/works in the next release. I'm ok with it.

Lighting has been upped considerably in the two mentioned rooms.

I'll fix up a new version and post it in here.