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Gnam
 
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« Reply #20 on: 2015-06-15, 20:36 »

My biggest complaint about Doom 4 is the recycled monster designs from Doom 3. I thought we were past this stupid "no horns" hell knight design from 2004. Modders created a horned hell baron variant which was 10x better and showed that the Doom3/movie hell knight really was due to be scrapped. The vanilla Doom 3 imp is easier to ignore, but still underwhelming.

The single barrel shotgun spread, despite its lateral crosshair design, appears closer to its crappy Doom 3 width and doesn't inspire confidence. It really should have been closer to the spread sizes of the single barrel in Brutal Doom, Doom 1, and Quake 2.

In general, the wide open spaces are a huge improvement over Doom 3, but it still kinda feels like just a BFG Edition mission pack with brighter lighting and melee executions tacked on. The melee mechanics would have been impressive if Brutal Doom never existed, but I am just over the gimmick by now. I also think this mechanic would be much better if it was dependant on a temporary quad-esqye variant of the berserk powerup. As is, having the ability to rip enemies apart at any time ruins any sense of fear they might otherwise instill.

The slow-mo during weapon switching is silly, because even on consoles, creating insta-binds which work on gamepad is pretty easy (i have played Q3 bots this way). I have a bad feeling that the game will still force you to have a second of slow-mo even on PC when you are insta-swapping with the keyboard, which would pretty much ruin the advantage of a 10 gun system.

Coloring the helmet green instead of blue/grey makes it look too much like Master Chief instead of Doom Guy. Such an obvious, easy mistake to avoid.

The enemy behavior appears faster than Doom 3, but still pretty slow. I don't see imps bouncing off the walls, nor hell knights dodging about as they chuck fireballs...which is pretty much what is needed to maintain a challenge in a modern arcade shooter. In general it seems too easy to gib high level enemies with only one or two long-range SSG blasts.

The lack of puzzles and backtracking reminds me of Painkiller. It seems like you are just running and gunning blindly through the set pieces forever, which omits a major part of what made the original games fun.

The 2D ammo icons dropping off of enemies seems really immersion-breaking and silly to me. Looting realistic ammo boxes off of enemies which actually used those weapons was more logical, AND more challenging, as too many firefights with the wrong enemies could deplete your ammo. It appears that in Doom 4, as long as you keep doing fatalities, you will never actually have to hunt for ammo.

If it has co-op, it will probably be reasonably entertaining, but the lack of a fresh new take on the monsters and weapons makes it all seem sort of mediocre and underwhelming. It's not the brand new re-imagining of Doom we've been waiting for since 2004, it's more like an incremental improvement to the Doom 3 formula.

EDIT - At least they did the cacos right:



But that Hell Knight REALLY needs to go.
« Last Edit: 2015-06-15, 20:45 by Gnam » Logged
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« Reply #21 on: 2015-06-15, 22:16 »

I'm not sure... the executions or whatever you want to call them remind me of the melee kills of Serious Sam 3, I didn't care for them there because they seemed to just interrupt the action with what amounted to a second long cut scene, one that got old fast for each monster...

And I agree with Angst, this isn't PC DooM, this is console doom.
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Phoenix
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« Reply #22 on: 2015-06-16, 01:06 »

Tough crowd we got here.  The purist in me likes that.  I'm hoping they feel the pressure to improve on what we're seeing so far and make it into something you guys can like.  Doomed
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Gnam
 
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« Reply #23 on: 2015-06-16, 02:46 »

I am just so sick of that vanilla D3 Hell Knight. At minimum they would have at least needed to add horns and some sort of eyes to keep me on board, like the Ruiner mod did:



I don't think that every enemy design needs to be some kind of cartoony over-literal recreation of the original Doom 1 sprites (like this) but the Geiger-esque "no eyes, dome face" gimmick was done to death in Doom 3 and the Doom movie.

I also really think the Cyberdemon looks too much like someone stuck rabbit ears on a locust from Gears of War:





Why is the cyberdemon wearing CLOTHES? What was most memorable about the original Cyberdemon was how gross it was to see its naked flesh, exposed intestines and all. The lack of a machine leg makes him look even more generic...I don't think the GOW look belongs in Doom enemies.

To be clear, the game should take some artistic liberties, do some new things visually, and not always recreate everything exactly from the original games. However, in these cases, the look really should be closer to artists like Wayne Barlowe and not so much like existing generic shooter games.

I will end on a high note and say that these shots of the spectre/pinky, as blurry as they are, actually look pretty spot on:





Why can't all the enemies be so well done?
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« Reply #24 on: 2015-06-16, 04:38 »

One thing I will admit, after giving it some thought, is that I may be being too hard about the apparent speed, enemy population and the health drops. There are two key things we don't know right now: What difficulty level is this footage from, and how does the difficulty scale?

A great deal of Doom's first epsode is rather empty on the two lowest difficulties. Higher difficulties are still sparse compared to later episodes and especially areas in Plutonia, but the population does increase notably with your chosen skill level.

And with the health drops... do those decrease in number, possibly to near-zero, as the difficulty rises? Could it be that we'll be required to play at a level comparable to Ultraviolence to get an "authentic" Doom experience?

I'd be fine with that.
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« Reply #25 on: 2015-06-16, 14:12 »

I myself had some thoughts.. mostly in relation to why I think what I do, because I remember being hugely purist about certain aspects of certain things in the past.

I'm not expecting an exact recreation or an 'authentic' experience. I've expected that sort of thing before with games in the past and ended up sorely disappointed. Now I take things for what they are. The old classics are already made and done, and can still be enjoyed by everybody.

That being said, some things did jump out initially but I was actually somehow able to let them slide... with the exception of one thing, which I'll get to. The first thing, though, is the run speed. It seemed slow, like really slow. And I'm someone who always played the original games NOT running, unless I felt I really needed to, because I felt the run speed there was way too fast.

The second thing are the strange 2D sprites for the health and ammo drops. A big part of me is saying they're only placeholders, but... that might be being a little optimistic. They really do look so out of place with the rest of the game.

Then the last thing is, of course, the executions. I never played Brutal Doom, but I have seen gameplay of it. That being said, they stood out as initially awesome. But thinking about it, I can see them getting really old, really fast. I love the idea put forth by Gnam that suggested tying them to an updated version of the Berserker powerup. It just makes way too much sense.

All of that being said, it still looks like a fun game to me. With a few changes, I think it can look even better.

...and I totally agree about the Cyberdemon. The missing mechanical leg stuck out to me in a bad way. It's possibly the most iconic enemy, and is so for a reason. But they're trying to make him look like a generic demon... a pretty big one, admittedly, but still kinda generic.

EDIT: After watching the trailer again, the Cyberdemon DOES have a mechanical leg (his right leg, from the knee down)! It's so noticeable that you have to be specifically looking for it, though. ......
« Last Edit: 2015-06-16, 14:45 by Thomas Mink » Logged

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« Reply #26 on: 2015-06-16, 17:52 »

I ran across this pic that someone 'shopped:




Now if someone can get Id/Bethesda to maybe alter the color palette in this manner the visuals might be a bit closer to classic Doom and Hell would look a little less like Stroggos maybe?
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Gnam
 
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« Reply #27 on: 2015-06-16, 19:27 »

My girlfriend and I were talking about that last night...the ambient color effect in modern games is just too strong and excessively overpowers the native color of the objects beneath. Even a compromise which retains some of the orange glow would be preferable to making the game totally sepiatone.



The vanilla D4 look reminds me too much of the HL2 rock below:



And while I'm posting random gifs other people made, this is exactly why I'm sick of the Doom 3 demon designs:



It's just too derivative to justify shoving our faces in it a second time around, after 10 years.
« Last Edit: 2015-06-16, 19:35 by Gnam » Logged
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« Reply #28 on: 2015-06-17, 01:17 »

Yeah... DooM is seeming more derivative these days and not as original as it once was... Visually I mean, I hope the music is just as good as in the original two games.
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« Reply #29 on: 2015-06-17, 20:15 »

Well, this is a first reveal.  Send them some feedback over at Id!  Monster designs could be altered between now and release.  Tell them what you think!  You never know.  They might listen and make some changes.
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« Reply #30 on: 2015-06-18, 21:57 »

I have to agree with the general sentiment; the art design is still essentially Doom 3, which always felt pretty bland to me. Outside of that, the gameplay itself looks promising. I just hope all of the parkour and melee are done by the player, ala Brink, and not semi-scripted scenes.

I still would prefer a proper sequel to Quake, with Lovecraftian beasties instead of Strogg! Slipgate - Tongue
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« Reply #31 on: 2015-06-18, 23:21 »

Yes... Poor Quake 1 never got a proper sequel.  It's ironic that I did not like Quake 1 at all when I first played it, yet now I find I'd rather have a sequel to that than any other Id title at this point.  If it ever does get a sequel I just hope they don't give it the Quake 4 treatment.  To this day I still hate what Raven did to the look and feel of the Q2 universe.  They absolutely ruined it.
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« Reply #32 on: 2015-06-19, 05:26 »

I always felt that Quake 4's art direction was very much in line with that of Doom 3, though. I'm not a fan of it in either case, but it seemed to me that they were attempting a similarly sleek look for all of the enemies.

I still like the plot point of becoming a Strogg! Quake 4 had that going for it, at least.
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« Reply #33 on: 2015-06-19, 16:21 »

Except they spoiled it from the start.  Before the game was released, it was revealed that you'd be "Stroggified" during play, so they even screwed that up.  That's the sort of thing you want the player to find out on their own!  Banging Head against Wall
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« Reply #34 on: 2015-06-19, 21:34 »

Ah, I can't say I recall much in the way of specific adverts from its lead up. That's pretty sad, though. It's also the exact reason I watch "teasers" in place of "trailers" for films that I'm interested in.
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« Reply #35 on: 2015-06-19, 22:42 »

I don't mind spoilers too much. If a certain aspect of a movie/game/book/whatever is good, it'll be good regardless if I know or not. And if the movie/game/book/whatever's good enough, I'll have forgotten and be surprised anyway.

Quake 4, I actually didn't mind all that much. I never played it to the end, but it didn't seem too bad to me.. then again, I don't remember much of anything about the game either really. I liked it more than Doom 3 anyway.. at least that's what I remember thinking at the time. But keep in mind that for the longest time I couldn't really stand Quake 2. It seriously took me forever just to get over the name, let alone play it to the end (which I surprisingly have indeed done).
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« Reply #36 on: 2015-06-21, 01:56 »

Yeah I kinda wish Quake 2 DIDN'T have a sequel, Or that enemy territory game, both were pretty meh I thought.

To be honest I miss the good old days when a game was just... a game, now everyone's got a story to tell, and that kinda ruins the possibility of co-op.
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« Reply #37 on: 2015-06-23, 02:08 »

The only bad thing about Coop is so many people don't understand the "cooperative" side.  I remember trying to play some Q2 coop with the Ground Zero mission pack, but one individual just wanted the Rambo the whole game, which kind of ruins it.  I think the last Coop I played was a Doom3 mod with Visimar.  We only got half way I think.
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« Reply #38 on: 2015-06-23, 16:14 »

The only bad thing about Coop is so many people don't understand the "cooperative" side.  I remember trying to play some Q2 coop with the Ground Zero mission pack, but one individual just wanted the Rambo the whole game, which kind of ruins it.
Guilty.
Kinda sums up how I tend to play coop in the old games.. which I admit does kinda ruin it. But I mean, if I can play the game solo, adding more people into the mix really only makes it easier.
I remember in a Doom coop once with two others, they had friendly fire on. I'm sure I ate more than a few 'accidental' shots for my Rambo antics.. which was indeed confirmed to me later. Slipgate - Smile

Now if they make a specific coop option instead of it just being 'single player with more people'.. then I think things might work better.
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« Reply #39 on: 2015-06-23, 19:25 »

That's something I had thought about back when Quake 2 was fairly new.  Looking at the hub system, I was wondering, why couldn't a game be made where you had a level hub, and someone could be playing on one section completing an objective, and someone else could be playing another section completing another objective, and then they'd meet back at the main hub to proceed together?  The Left 4 Dead series kind of made cooperation essential to a degree with the "helpless player" gimmick, but it's still the same people plodding together along the same path.  There's no real necessity beyond "help the guy that got pinned in some way" and "everyone shoot in different directions when the horde rush starts".

To me, a good coop game would make it so that you have to work together to pass obstacles and sometimes have to take separate paths, while at the same time having areas where you'd be fighting together and nobody could pass until that objective is finished.  I'm sure we've all played some kind of game where we have to keep an NPC alive at some point while they do something tricky?  Well, how about your buddy has to cover you while you do the tricky thing, or vice-versa?  Say a door is malfunctioning, and someone has to "hot wire" it to open it from one side, and you have to cover them while they work the panel.  Then, they have to stay put, you pass through the door, and then you hit the open switch from the other side, and your buddy can now come through.  You'd need some way to keep the player that just went through the half-open door from running off, but little things like that can make coop more difficult.  You can also have things like doors with multiple switches that require more than one person to operate at the same time, like how you can't launch a nuclear missile without two people activating the launch keys simultaneously, etc.  There's ways to make things work if the devs aren't lazy.


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