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Author Topic: New DooM (relatively incoherent rant within)  (Read 5415 times)
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Angst
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« on: 2016-02-05, 20:44 »

I want to love you new DooM.. I really do.. But WHAT THE EVERLOVING SPORK IS THIS TRIPLE-BARRELED-COLLAPSIBLE CHAINGUN MALARKY?! WHO DESIGNED THIS?! YYARRAARGHGAHHGLAHDGIALSDHAWEHRH *SPLAT* Banging Head against Wall Banging Head against Wall
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« Reply #1 on: 2016-02-07, 04:53 »

Probably the same person that put mini rockets on the shotgun?  There was an old Doom mod that had a chaingun sprite replacement that looked somewhat like that though.  I think it was Christmas Doom or something along those lines, so there's some historical basis for that.  The purist in me is going to squawk a little on the guns, but that chaingun isn't a deal breaker for me.  Classic weapons always can (and someone will do it) be modded into the game.  Besides, what we get to do with the chainsaw is just... glorious.  Doom - Love

What I'm seeing that I like is the monsters looking more classic in style in the new vid and the amount of absolutely over-the-top gore that we're getting.  They took the term "ludicrous gibs" and ran with it.  I'm seeing a lot of emphasis on action, action, and... well, action.  I like Doom 3 for what it is, but this is looking more like what I wanted Doom 3 to be... probably what a lot of Doom fans wanted Doom 3 to be.  I'm not going to pre-order because Rage was buggy as spork out the gate - I'll wait for the first patch at least - but this is still on my "want it" list at this point... strange chaingun or no.
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J3E125
 

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« Reply #2 on: 2016-02-20, 22:28 »

Well, I happen to disagree. I'm part of the Doom crowd that was born after Doom released, so I gravitate less towards being a purist. I like Doom as a proper reboot, and not a game that stays too loyal without taking risks. It's nice to see new-Doom, and that multichaingun was cool as hell. Of course, I hope to see innovation beyond aesthetics and gimmicks.
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Thomas Mink
 

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« Reply #3 on: 2016-02-25, 15:05 »

Just from the fact that it's a minigun, I guess there isn't a lot they can do with it in terms of 'upgrades'.. especially in the visual sense since the gun is essentially just a bullet hose. So someone said, "Hey, let's triple the amount of barrels!"
I think I read an article referring to it as a 'mobile turret' upgrade for the gun, or something. Every gun gets an option of two upgrades, so I wonder what the second is...

But yea... the triple-minigun thing seems a little goofy to me. I like miniguns! But.. that's overdoing it to the point of silliness. I might change my mind when I get to actually use it, but eh.
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Gnam
 
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« Reply #4 on: 2016-03-19, 17:58 »

Speaking of...am I the only one here who feels that having a multibarrel/gattling gun in a modern game shooting at under 2000rpm is a complete waste and utter failure?

I can understand why the aesthetic of the minigun would be used in the original Doom games without the technical hurdle of the high cyclic rates. The Doom franchise is also not beholden to 100% realism (and the term "chaingun" is not even correct anyway). However, we all know that you can pump out lower cyclic rates with any ordinary machinegun. The MG42 even got up to 1800rpm in some cases.

So particularly since the new Doom game already has an ordinary single barrel LMG for firing at ordinary rates, it seems totally redundant to implement a minigun in this same low cyclic range. What is the point? We've seen multibarrel weapon models plenty of times. What we haven't seen is being able to actually play with the high cyclic rates; even games with only vehicle-mounted miniguns often get this wrong.

Plus, Doom 4 is already follows the Brutal Doom formula so closely. Brutal Doom did the Chaingun so well...why did Bethesda have to fail on this? High cyclic rates aren't THAT processor intensive, particularly in a single-player scenario, and there are ways to optimize for them if you've planned for it.
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Phoenix
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« Reply #5 on: 2016-03-19, 20:00 »

Speaking from a purely technical perspective, a slower-cyclic rate on a rotary-barreled gun saves ammunition, and rotary-barreled guns don't overheat very fast.  Single-barreled machineguns need to have the barrel swapped out once you've fired 100-200 rounds, so rotary guns can maintain constant fire for a lot longer.  Caliber could also be a consideration.  If you're firing a larger round from a rotary gun you need a slower cyclic rate to control the weapon.  Not justifying anything gameplay-wise here, just speaking from a real physics standpoint.

That being said, I think Quake 2 is the one (retail) game that really nailed the rotary gun concept dead on.




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Phoenix
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« Reply #6 on: 2016-04-16, 23:41 »

Muliplayer is HORRIBLE.  I just tried the public beta, and I have nothing good to say about it.  If you're new there's no way to test things out without being in a match.  The only weapons worth anything are the super shotgun and the gauss gun - the latter I only found once - and all the experienced players will always manage to grab the demon spawn.  I picked it up one time off a fallen player and died before I could get more than two shots off, yet every time someone else had it you couldn't do any damage to them.  Oh, more complaints...

Player identification sucks.  You get a red or blue floaty text over someone and that's how you tell your team from theirs.

Rocket launcher is worthless.  I could wound with it, I could hit with it, but you cannot kill with it.  Even detonating rockets mid-air you'd still get a shotgun to the face.  As for the detonating rockets... yes, you have to blow them up in mid-air because shooting the floor doesn't work when everyone is double-jumping constantly.

Sniper rifle-thing has to "charge up" when zoomed.  This isn't TF2, wtf?  That made it useless except for sucker shots - which I ended up on the other end of a lot.

The heavy machinegun did 9 points per hit.  It's not heavy, it's like a default Q2 machinegun.  It was somewhat useful for shooting someone in the back if they were distracted fighting one of your teammates.

Sound... there's a good one.  I think I heard my shotgun go off maybe 3 times.  I was killed by so many silent shotgun blasts it's not funny.

Damage feedback was non-existent!  Honestly, it was hard to tell when you were doing anything to anyone or if anyone was doing anything to you.  Id games have always been great for damage feedback.  In Quake you KNEW when you took a rocket, or if you blasted someone and left them hurting.  Where's all the pain sounds?  Where's the "OH spork THAT HURT LIKE A SON-OF-A-BITCH" screams when you're almost dead?

Finally.... hack modules?  Experience?  SERIOUSLY?

I... cannot find anything good to say.  This is NOT Doom in any way, shape, or form.  I've heard a lot of comparisons between this and HALO.  I've never played HALO so I can't comment on that, but this is the farthest I've seen an Id game stray from the FPS formula.  I've finally seen this for myself, and I absolutely hate it.  I will not be playing the deathmatch at all, and as for purchasing the retail game... I'm going to wait until there's a demo.  If the single player is anything like the multi I'm not going anywhere near this, and it makes me sad because I really wanted to like this game.
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MadTux
 

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« Reply #7 on: 2016-04-17, 10:00 »

Lucky me: Linux on a Thinkpad isn't going to run Doom 4 any time soon Slipgate - Tongue

But I'm looking forward to "ports" running on (g)zdoom, which might be a good chance to improve Doom 4's gameplay.
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« Reply #8 on: 2016-04-17, 22:25 »

I don't think Doom's open beta was that bad, it's definitely got a far more polished and finished feeling than Bethesda's final GOTYGOTYGOTY releases.  The most annoyances i've had:

- weapon balance.  That static rifle feels very useless and the SSG seems to be the only one that gives the traditional time to kill in an id game
- Sound issues.  Getting shot with a SSG means you only hear impact splats and the gun is silenced
- Not enough dance moves
- some of the motion blur is really really excessive
- Voip bugs. unbeknownst to me I was broadcasting my games' audio
- the 2K/Activision preorder-to-win DLC swindle, but that's not really involving the beta so it doesn't count as much. Just strike that as a bethesda executive policy
- it's still called Doom and not Doom 4.  Doom3 nearly made that mistake

It's an okay game in its own right, but let's face it - they aren't going to do a 1994gameplay+AAA game now nor were going to do a 1994gameplay+AAA game 20 years ago (had they made an actual, real Doom 3 instead of Quake) and given the pretentious dorksaster that was ROTT'13...perhaps it's for the better that it plays like quake4 halo of duty demontag edition.  Every sequel id's done since Romero's departure have been in name only anyway, with Q3 having the closest resembelance to a Romero game only for its thematic callbacks and deathmatch emphasis
« Last Edit: 2016-04-17, 22:40 by leilei » Logged

Angst
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« Reply #9 on: 2016-04-19, 04:44 »

This isn't doom, this is call of halo. It's floaty, it's slow, and most of the weapons feel like nerf..

And xp/unlocks? Bleh..

Plasma was ok, but there's too much to this that feels like instead of blazing a trail, they stole all of the most focus group popular features of younger titles. This is like the gamer equivalent to the parent at prom who dressed up in their highschool fashion to try and be hip..
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« Reply #10 on: 2016-04-27, 17:57 »

The heavy machinegun did 9 points per hit.  It's not heavy, it's like a default Q2 machinegun.  It was somewhat useful for shooting someone in the back if they were distracted fighting one of your teammates.

If you think that's bad, the plasma rifle does 6 damage! The Doom 1 plasma rifle, Q2 hyperblaster, and Q3 plasmagun all dealt double, triple, or quadrupel the damage of the Doom 1 Chaingun, Q2 MG, or Q3 MG. The hitscan vs. projectile balance is totally out of wack!
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Phoenix
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« Reply #11 on: 2016-04-27, 20:47 »

6 points for PLASMA?  I couldn't even hit anyone with it the projectiles were so freaking slow.  That would mean someone would have to run into a wall of 17 projectiles to die from 100 health and no armor. 

They also looked like crap.  It's exactly why I didn't use spheroid models for Doom's plasma in Gen.  If I did I know they would have looked better than that.  The plasma in the Doom Beta looked like wobbly blue glass eggs, not destructive energy of death.

You know... I'm starting to wonder if us old-school gamers just got completely trolled with this.  In Doom 1, rockets, plasma, and chaingun were the go-to weapons for frags, with the single-shotty filling in until you could get a heavy hitter.  Doom 2 was all about the SSG, but you had to be close.  Melee was difficult to hit with unless you were berserk.  Now along comes THIS Doom, and what happens?  Machinegun (chaingun - let's face it) is worthless, Plasma is worthless, and rockets are worthless.  Lightning gun - which was a Quake weapon and damned powerful - is worthless.  SSG you can "choke" to hit someone from across the map and silent so you can ninja-shoot people in the back, and let's make the CAMPER weapons - Vortex, Static, and Gauss - do one-shots, melee does an insane amount of damage.  They took the weapon damage for the classics and nerfed them to oblivion except the SSG - which was still nerfed - and make the sniper weapons the only ones capable of inflicting any real damage.

I seriously wonder if these clowns that coded for HALO and CoD looked at this as a chance to stick it to us classic PC FPS gamers because they don't like us.  The HALO/CoD crowd and the classic Doom/Quake crowd do NOT get along.  So what does Bethesda do?  They hire these clowns who then proceed to gut the gameplay of OUR title.  OUR beloved Doom.  Instead of giving us the gameplay we want, we get this abortion of an Arena shooter inflicted on us, while these tools are laughing themselves all the way to the bank.  "Now you got to play OUR WAY, stupid PC elitists!  Deathmatch is dead, suck it!"  That's the vibe I'm getting from this because obviously they're not changing the game to play the way we want it to.  Anyone else with me on this?

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Angst
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« Reply #12 on: 2016-04-28, 21:44 »

I don't know that it was so much sticking it to the oldschool gamers as it was pandering to what's seen as the most popular in the FPS community. The new doom troopers feel a LOT like masterchief--floaty tanks, they even LOOK like Spartan power armors.. The weapons feel a LOT like the halo/COD equivalents, complete with focus on snipe/camp over everything, and I'm still not entirely sure how I feel about rocket jumping being removed (as an id thing, not doom-specific)

I could get REALLY pissy and point out that marathon came after doom, but most halo gamers get all glassy eyed when I mention that title....
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« Reply #13 on: 2016-04-28, 23:09 »

Now along comes THIS Doom, and what happens?  Machinegun (chaingun - let's face it) is worthless, Plasma is worthless, and rockets are worthless.

On the "heavy" machinegun, I believe it was more intended to play the role of the Q2 machinegun, as there actually is a separate chaingun in Doom 4 which deals more damage at the cost of a windup time. It just wasn't featured in the betas, and may not be included in vanilla multiplayer at all.

Some new demos of Snap Map have surfaced in the past 24 hours, which show how you can make your own maps and gametypes featuring weapons like the Chaingun, BFG, "Hell Shot" and others not present in the multiplayer beta. You could probably even make your own custom multiplayer modes which spawn players with only a pistol, and the necessity to pick other weapons off the map...

...of course of that is for nothing is you can't actually fix the weapon balance. No one wants to pick a rocket launcher off the map and have it deal 55 damage, nor a plasma rifle with 6 freaking HP. An id title without solid projectile weapons is not an id title at all.

If there is any ability to edit weapon definitions in the PC version, that could save the game. That's a big "if" though.

On a brighter note: someone showed off a singleplayer snapmap level where you play as a Baron of Hell against other enemies. There was something very gratifying about watching the Baron tower over the Doom 3 Hell Knight, snapping him like a twig.
« Last Edit: 2016-04-28, 23:12 by Gnam » Logged
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« Reply #14 on: 2016-04-28, 23:47 »

I ran across this today, focusing exclusively on the single player.  It's a long watch, and spoilers are present.  If you want to see the BFG, it's toward the end.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txmv2qFRuxI

A few things I picked up from this, without spoiling much.

Chainsaw takes fuel, and is pretty much an insta-kill weapon that gives you a massive ammo dump.  Fuel gets used in increments, so sawing an imp may use 1 cell.  I think you can carry 3 cells max.
A LOT of stuff - like glory kill indicators and even the entire HUD can be turned off via menus.
Glory kills are entirely optional, but do grant health and temporarily make you invulnerable while pulling off the move.  It can actually save a near-death player.
Powerups like Quad Damage and Haste are instant effect, not portable.
There's lots of weapon upgrades - single chaingun to a triple chaingun (final version is known as a "portable turret" and has three sets of barrels, not just two), different ammo types for the shotty, etc.
You can carry every single gun in SP.
Pistol is like the blaster from Q4 - infinite ammo, and charge-shot seconodary.
There's a "rune" system for ability upgrades.
You can get armor upgrades (not just points, but to your suit itself).
Combat tends to be arena-centric, with story and exploration completely optional.
There's a 3D automap that's actually useful.
Cacodemon fireballs are dead-on classic in color.
Saving appears to be entirely checkpoint-based.  I did not see any quicksave option.
Weapons in the SP are MUCH more powerful than in multi.  Rockets gibbed imps and possessed dudes.
Monster in-fighting was not confirmed, but there's videos of it occuring on Youtube.  One has a caco obliterating another monster and not aiming at the player.  Another has an imp pouncing on a possessed soldier before getting shot in the back by the player.

What I'm getting from the single player is this is to Doom as to what Flying Wild Hog did with Shadow Warrior, but without the swordplay.  If that's how this ends up working I think I might enjoy the SP.  I don't mind upgrade paths in games, and the rune and weapon upgrade system actually lets you customize to your preferred fighting style.  I liked that in Tron 2.0 and Shadow Warrior.  If you want to challenge yourself you can play without any upgrades, so that option is available.  I'm in no way pre-ordering, but I'll be watching closely.

Multiplayer... the only hope I have there is Snapmap.  In a previous video they mentioned being able to do a classic 4-player deathmatch, they showed custom demon fights with demons brawling with each other... so I'm hoping that the ability to mod things like weapon damage is built into Snapmap.  If it IS... then REAL multiplayer may be possible, and we know the Doom modding community will be making that happen.  It's going to depend on how the hell server hosting works though.  If there's no dedicated server support that's going to make things very difficult, so I'm not going to hold my breath since we've only seen a BS lobby system so far.  We'll know soon enough.
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« Reply #15 on: 2016-04-29, 23:45 »

After watching some of that campaign footage, and a few others posted in the last day or so, all I can say is: I hope Ultraviolent is way tougher than whatever people are posting now.

The way many of these players are completely ignoring major enemies that are right next to them without suffering any damage for it is ridiculous. I have seen players botch a double jump only to wind up humping a revenant in the face on the way down, and the revenant doesn't react till they player's already descended from their floaty moon jump, swinging at the air ineffectually.

The more you watch the enemies at this level, the more you notice how they are whiffing easy shots constantly. A lot of the bigger enemies just start swatting the air randomly around them whenever you get within a 10ft radius, completely missing as if you're a mosquito they can't quite see.

The pinky's huge telegraphing "imma hit you now" charge designed to expose their backs is painfully obvious to the point of being patronizing. You'd have to be AFK to miss those and it's hilarious the way the devs constantly describe this mechanic as "strategic".

So few imp fireballs ever hit the player, it doesn't even look like they're trying to hit you anymore; it looks like they're intentionally missing with razor precision. The possessed humans look so worthless, I think I will have to play exclusively with the blaster for the first few hours to get any challenge out of the game (headshot target practice).

The game could be good on ultraviolence, but it's frustrating that we have to buy the game simply out of good faith, because all the promos are on piss poor difficulty levels. None of the enemies look any tougher than the Elites from Halo 1, which spent so much time pointing and yelling "wort wort wort" that you finished every encounter with them before it even started.
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« Reply #16 on: 2016-04-30, 02:09 »

That's why I'm not making a day 1 purchase for sure.  I want to see what happens.  If there's a SP Demo, that will help tremendously.
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Woodsman
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« Reply #17 on: 2016-05-13, 16:27 »

I'm about 5 hours in now and I like it. It isn't perfect but it has a classic doom feel. Yet i can't help but feel they just made brutal doom with a new engine.
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« Reply #18 on: 2016-05-13, 18:08 »

I did just read that it has Denuvo, for those who may dislike that particular piece of software.  I haven't dealt with it myself, but I understand it somehow encrypts the .exe on the fly when loaded to make piracy more difficult.  I'm not sure what effect that may have on multiplayer cheating... hopefully a good one, but I don't really know much about the software beyond that.  I know there's some anti-DRM purists that it's an instant turn-off to, but Steam itself is a form of DRM when you think about it so owning games on Steam and complaining about DRM is kind of strange... even though Denuvo isn't DRM by definition.

Anyway, looking forward to more info on the SP campaign, as well as performance stuff.  I really want then to post a demo so I can see what it does to my hardware before I decide to plunk down any real money.
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« Reply #19 on: 2016-05-13, 19:43 »

I can give you some good insight into the performance stuff. My system was technically below the minimum system requirements in that i have a radeon r250 video card, but that is apparently close enough to the  radeon HD 7870 the minimum system requirements stated.  My processor is an AMD FX 8320 and my system has 20 gigs or ram ( though i use windows 7 home so it only uses 16 gigs of it). With some tweaking i was able to make it run well enough. If you turn down the resolution you can play it without sacrificing alot of other visual features like texture and shadow quality, which i always prefer to do because high res shit still looks like shit. If you disable mouse smoothing that seems to help dramatically.  Of course it still takes a million years to load it each time, but eh what the hell. I didn't have 400 dollars to spend on a video card like when i did when doom 3 came out ( my radeon 9700 pro, awesome card worth every penny ) but i didn't have 3 kids then either.
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