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Phoenix
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« Reply #40 on: 2020-04-05, 17:50 »

I ran into the same issues with the cheat codes.  Before resuming the normal campaign you have to turn them all off from the Mission Select screen or the Slayer Gate key is missing.  Even after knowing this I forgot to turn one off before proceeding.  I was unhappy about that.

I had the sticky bomb break on me.  Fix was to turn on the weapon mastery cheat to replay a level, hold down alt fire, swap mods, release alt fire, then swap back and it worked again.

DO NOT try to complete a mastery challenge with the Weapon Mastery cheat enabled.  You'll unlock the mastery perk but it will screw you out of the milestone.  The only way to get the milestone if this happens is to start a new slot from scratch.  I found this out the hard way.  Better to just replay an earlier mission or visit the Ripatorum.

Not cheat-code related, but did anyone else find the Cyberdemon/Tyrant to be underwhelming?  It felt like his lack of speed and lack of "one-shot kill" rockets made him just a big meat target.  The Crucible could one-shot him and you could freeze him with ice bombs.  What used to be Doom's most dangerous enemy felt like he was stuffed in the back of the closet in favor of their shiny new Marauder and Doom Hunter.
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« Reply #41 on: 2020-04-09, 15:12 »

The only Tyrants I've fought have been in slayer gates so far... and they've honestly been non-issues. I remember a duo warped in, and that was mostly intimidation factor more than anything because I'm not even sure if they hit me at all or not. I'm pretty sure everything else in the arena did.. not sure on the Tyrants.
Sooo yea.. so far, kinda underwhelming. I say 'kinda' because I'm one of those who, outside of custom WADs, viewed the Cyberdemon as more than a bit overrated.

Doom Hunter.. bit of a thing when first met, but quickly becomes only a minor threat after like the third time it shows up. Marauder steals the show, though. Requires way more focus than any other enemy.. but honestly, not as terrible as people were making him out to be.
The first one you meet had me intimidated before the fight even started because I heard the noise... and he went down with little-to-no issue. He didn't even summon the dog I heard horror stories about. And that lead me into a false sense of security because then the next one in the slayer gate kicked my behind all over that arena. From there, it's been kind of a learning curve.. so eh.. annoying but tolerable so far. Depending on what type of demon combos they come up with for the last few stages, my opinion may or may not change.
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Phoenix
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« Reply #42 on: 2020-04-09, 23:04 »

Once I learned the Marauder's pattern he became less of an issue.  The dog is annoying but you can one-shot it with the SSG.

I lost all my extra lives due to a glitched Archvile near the end.  I had staggered him but somehow he didn't actually die and became immune to damage.  More and heavier demons kept spawning in, and yes, Archies can spawn Marauders.  After I respawned at the checkpoint he was gone and all the demons he had summoned in.  I'm not sure what exactly happened, but that was so far the most frustrating thing I've run into.

You'll need extra lives for the last boss.  I won't spoil anything, but I'll give you a helpful hint:  The Blood Punch gauntlet powerups respawn, and the things that power the sword respawn.  Armor and health also respawn.  BFG ammo does NOT respawn, so use that wisely.
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Angst
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« Reply #43 on: 2020-04-10, 05:14 »

I saved BFG ammo by using the forward corners and the plasma/heat discharge, then looping down to take out more dangerous demons, reload the sword, and saw a few squishies. The second phase was arguably easier because I had more room to get some distance, so I was able to more freely switch weapons.
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Phoenix
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« Reply #44 on: 2020-04-10, 06:15 »

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« Reply #45 on: 2020-04-10, 20:35 »

Loving the hell out of this game, still have to defeat the final boss. I've been playing on Ultra-Violence, I'll take advantage of the mission select feature to skim through levels to see if I missed any secrets, codexes or hidden areas. After that when they add invasion mode, I'll replay the game on Nightmare.
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« Reply #46 on: 2020-04-12, 20:08 »

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« Reply #47 on: 2020-04-13, 21:22 »

I'll be honest.. the platforming was no big deal to me. People were kind of blowing it out of proportion, I thought.
Then Urdak happened and I almost quit at a few points. It was even affecting my ability to fight properly in the arenas, which only lead to more frustration. I had to take a moment and just stop at one point after being something like four lives down after an arena. Got a drink, had a snack, just kind of cleared my head a little.. came back fresh and it was relatively fine from there on. But my-- uhh.. Zod.. that stage was insanely annoying platforming-wise.
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« Reply #48 on: 2020-04-14, 18:26 »

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« Reply #49 on: 2020-05-08, 19:30 »

I need to go back to Doom Eternal soon. I walked away from it out of frustration and to see if they were going to adjust anything, then got distracted by other games in the meantime. Did you know I'd never actually completed all four episodes of Ultimate Doom? That's fixed, now.

also hey pho the unmaker (Unmaykr?) is in a mainline Doom game now and they gave him a railgun weapon in 2016 when are those getting added to generations arena Doomed

I figured someone had to get that out of the way eventually, lol Slipgate - Love
« Last Edit: 2020-05-08, 19:37 by Makou » Logged
Phoenix
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« Reply #50 on: 2020-05-09, 00:08 »

also hey pho the unmaker (Unmaykr?) is in a mainline Doom game now and they gave him a railgun weapon in 2016 when are those getting added to generations arena Doomed

I figured someone had to get that out of the way eventually, lol Slipgate - Love

Oh you went there!  Well, in that case, Toucan play that game!   Doom - Thumbs Up!

*ahem*

[rant mode] First, as you well know, we're out of weapon slots.  I can't add additional weapons without breaking compatibility between the engine and normal Q3A (and other Q3A mods), which I don't want to do.  Second, even if I could, someone would have to make the additional models and effects, and I'm already in the process of animating the player models.  Unless someone wants to volunteer to do that, it's not going to get done.  In addition, none of those weapons were in the PC version of Doom and Doom 2, which is what Generations Arena's Doom Warriors is based around.  I mean, might as well implement Glory Kills, grenades, and double-jump mechanics if we were going to go there.

Besides that, we already have weapons that kind of fill those spots.  Both the Heavy Chaingun and Ion Gun for Team Arena fire a 3-shot spread, so that's kind of like the Unma(y)ker?  As for the Gauss Cannon, yeah, Doom doesn't need that kind of long-range pinpoint weapon.  The complaints would be endless about balance.  Doom really WOULD be overpowered at that point. [/rant mode]

Saw that coming, didn't you?  Slipgate - Laugh
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« Reply #51 on: 2020-05-09, 01:09 »

Sure did! Chainsaw

So when's the RAGE class being added, anyway?

... Oh My F'ing Gawd

If I'm being honest, any "modern" versions of these games would warrant a class all their own, anyway. 2014 Wolfenstein and 2016 Doom are wildly different from their classic counterparts, and unique enough that trying to blend them together would get real ugly, real unwieldy, and real unbalanced real quick, and that's before any discussion of all the work and engine-breaking needed to jam Yet More Stuff in.

I know more than enough about the behind-the-scenes parts of this mess to be fully aware that even at the height of development activity, that never would have been realistic for Generations Arena. Truthfully, it's better for it anyway. More is not always more. Slipgate - Love

Something just made me think today that part (but not all) of the rationale years ago for not including the Unmaykr was that it wasn't part of a "real" commercial version of Doom, and I was like, hey, that's not quite true anymore...
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Phoenix
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« Reply #52 on: 2020-05-10, 09:29 »

*I* am the RAGE class!  I become that class any time someone asks for features.  Everyone knows that.  Doom - Thumbs Up!

Doing a "modern" set of classes would certainly be a coding nightmare.  Wolf would dual-wield everything, and dual-wielding alternate guns.  Doom Slayer would have weapon mods and, depending if you're talking about Eternal or Doom '16, super speedy dash and very low ammo counts.  Q2 guy would have to be based on Q4, and we wouldn't even have a Quakeguy since Id refuses to make an updated Quake 1.
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« Reply #53 on: 2020-05-10, 09:58 »

Overall, I think DOOM Eternal is a great follow-up to DOOM 4 / DOOM 2016.  It's easily one of the best games in the series.  In fact, I'd go as far as saying it's one of the best first person shooters ever made.  That said, it's also over-designed and horribly frustrating.

I love the core combat loop: glory kill for health, flame belch / meat hook for armor, chainsaw for ammo.

I like how DOOM Eternal requires you to use the chainsaw more.  DOOM 4 had copious amounts of ammo, and the chainsaw functioned more as a panic weapon than anything else.

What I don't like is DOOM Eternal now has the opposite problem.  Ammo is so scarce that you'll spend a large amount of your time trying to scrounge up resources.  Fighting a boss or super heavy?  Be prepared to micro-manage even more.

The justification for the ammo shortage seems to be that id wanted players to use all of the weapons and not just a few.  But here's the thing, DOOM Eternal already encourages you to do this because enemies now have weak points or take extra damage from certain weapon / mod combinations.  Not to mention that there's mission challenges, event challenges, and weapon mastery challenges that all ask you to do the same thing.

Speaking of forcing certain playstyles, DOOM Eternal does this kind of thing far too much.  Fighting a Cacodemon without shotgun ammo?  Too bad, go get some.  Suck at making headshots?  Welcome to Urdak, here's your Sentinel armor.  Saving your super weapon for a super heavy?  Boy, have I got a demon for you!

And that demon gets his own section.  The Marauder.  He's a divisive piece of s*** that you'll either love or hate. 

Here's the good:

He combines a lot of lessons the game has been teaching you, he telegraphs when he's most vulnerable, and he's unique in that he tries to actively zone you.

Here's the bad:

The in-game tutorial is both misleading and uninformative.  Trying to stay at a medium distance will get you killed.  Shooting his shield will also get you killed.  (That's what causes him to summon his spirit wolf.)  It's also in your best interest to swap between weapons and lob grenades when attacking him.

His shield is OP.  DOOM Eternal features three other enemies which use shields and you can either destroy or temporarily disable them.  Not so with the Marauder!  His shield blocks all incoming damage, even from super weapons, and he will immediately draw the shield should you try to attack him when he's not attacking you.

Moreover, the window in which you can damage him is extremely small.  You can stagger him more than once but good luck if you're on console!  Also, don't bother using super weapons!  They either don't work or aren't fast enough to do damage.  (It's absolutely bonkers that I can kill everything else with the Crucible but not this guy.  I'm literally swinging my sword through his face.)

Oh yeah, and you have to kill him in 30 seconds in one level to complete the game.  (Do what I did.  Just run away until the game unloads him from memory and force-kills him.)

Venting complete, let's move on to something else I love about this game.  The platforming.  No seriously, I do actually love it!  It reminds me of Metroid Prime and that's nothing but a good thing in my eyes.  I know it can be annoying at times, especially in Urdak, but DOOM Eternal is way more forgiving about falling to your death than most games.  Also, I'm pretty sure the Seek and Destroy rune allows you to cling to walls from further away.

Speaking of runes, it's time to vent again!  I'm kind of baffled as to why id chose to remove rune mastery.  In my mind, it was one of DOOM 4's best features, and it proved essential on higher difficulties and end-game content.  DOOM Eternal's solution to this feels incomplete.  You can obtain extra lives but they're not tied in to the checkpoint system so you're screwed if you hit a wall, difficulty-wise.  There are more suit upgrades but most of them relate to the new features introduced in Eternal.  Really, the closest facsimile we have are the Sentinel crystal abitilies and even then, most of them are Flame Belch related.  (Plus, when do you ever have max health or armor in this game!?)

I could keep going on but I'm not trying to make people hate the game or give the impression that I do.  DOOM Eternal does so many things right that the stuff it does wrong is glaring.  It's also kind of like Final DOOM in that the highs are really high and the lows are really low.

@Phoenix

I wasn't aware of that weapon mastery bug.  I just finished the game yesterday, and I discovered I'm also affected by it. Slipgate - Sad  Here's hoping id fixes it in their first patch!  I'm not really willing to do another playthrough just to unlock a skin for my chaingun.

Also, regarding the Slayer gate bug, there's a work-around.  You have to return to the Fortress of DOOM, use Mission Select to load into a level without cheats enabled, and then quit back out and resume the story mission.  I ran into that issue three times myself.

@Phoenix @Makou

In order to make a truly authentic RAGE player class, you have to first ensure it's completely unplayable for Windows XP and ATI users. :p
« Last Edit: 2020-05-10, 10:07 by Kain-Xavier » Logged

Phoenix
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« Reply #54 on: 2020-05-10, 10:11 »

One rant I have about both Doom '16 and Eternal is the chainsaw.  They have the chain on backwards.  Here, take a look at the Doom saws:







------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Now look at a real chainsaw, and a diagram:







As you can see on the real chainsaw the raker is ahead of the cutting tooth, and the cutting wedge angles down toward the chain bar.  The raker clears debris from the cutting path.  On the Doom saws, the cutting tooth is ahead of the raker, and the tooth has the highest part to the back.  That's exactly what happens if the chain is on backwards.  Maybe that's why they take some much freaking gas.
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« Reply #55 on: 2020-05-10, 15:14 »

It is wild to think that the only game modern Id doesn't seem to want to make a modern version of is Quake the First. They really had me when they first announced Quake Champions, considering it started out with a modern render of the Ranger and then transitioned into El Oh El, Class-based Arena Shooter. Banging Head against Wall

And Kain, not for nothing, but I'm struggling to reconcile "is a great follow-up" with the lows being as low as they are in your thoughts, there. I agree that the game in and of itself is fantastic. But it doesn't feel like a follow-up to 2016 in so many ways; it's more like 2016 was an inspiration, but they went in a very different direction from it.
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« Reply #56 on: 2020-05-10, 20:18 »

Phoenix, I never would have realized the chain was on backwards!  That's kind of hilarious, especially since someone took the time to update the texture and possibly the model for Eternal.  Maybe that's why it went from a Painsaw to a Dopesaw? :p

Also, I'd offer to share my gas with you, but I'm out of ammo.  :x

Makou, I'm also perplexed by the lack of a true Quake sequel.  The DOOM 3 engine would have been perfect for such a game.  I also felt like DOOM 4 was giving off some serious Quake vibes in the latter Hell levels.  (Even the Hell barge in Eternal feels very Quake-y.)  Lastly, even if you wanted to do a multiplayer-centric title, why would you choose to compete directly with Overwatch?  Blizzard has never not been the market leader.  Do you not follow the industry, bro?

Regarding my thoughts on DOOM Eternal, I'm struggling to reconcile them myself.  I genuinely think the combat is better.  It does feel like an extension of what was in DOOM 4.  The art style is different, but I see that as being more of a throwback to DOOM and DOOM II.  I also think that was a good decision given the lore and just how violent this game is.  Speaking of the story, it's kind of all-over-the-place.  I could easily see the merit in arguing that it diverges from DOOM 4's too much.  But I still give the game a free pass because DOOM has never had that much of a story, and Eternal does some really cool things with it.  And I guess I'm making that same concession for all of the bad parts in the game.

I love the DOOM series, and I consider it something of a minor miracle that DOOM 4 turned out as good as it did.  (It's in my top 3.)  I see DOOM Eternal as more of that same goodness.  But if it wasn't a DOOM game?  I probably wouldn't recommend it.  It's over-designed, inflexible, and way, WAY too damn hard.
« Last Edit: 2020-05-10, 20:42 by Kain-Xavier » Logged

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« Reply #57 on: 2020-05-10, 20:42 »

I feel like idTech 4 lent itself better to a Quake 2 sequel, personally, which is what happened, for better or worse. I still haven't played that game at all. I bought a physical copy on the cheap some years ago and have no idea what I did with it, and I'm not sure I'm up to paying $20 for it on Steam.

idTech whatever-we're-on now (I think it's 6) absolutely suits Quake more. I think it was YouTuber Civvie-11 who I first heard state that he feels 2016 feels more like an evolution of Quake's gameplay than of Doom's, and largely I agree. It's fast and punchy, and I think they could do a true Quake 1 sequel or reboot more than enough justice with it.

As for your last statement there, I more than agree with it. Opinions on Doom 3 have been coming around in the last several years, and that's largely because of the name attachment on it. If Doom Eternal didn't say "Doom," then largely I don't think it would have gotten nearly as much positivity as it's received; nor would people like myself be so passionate about what we see wrong with the game and its direction.
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« Reply #58 on: 2020-05-10, 22:17 »

Short of doing a full-page review, here's a few thoughts from me.

Pros:

The weapons are solid.  There really aren't any BAD weapons, though some upgrades are arguably more useful than others.
The level design is interesting, if linear.  The environments look different from one world to the next.  HELL also looks a lot better than in '16.  '16 had no fire and brimstone, and it was all grey rock and yellow sky and kind of boring-ish visually.
All the monsters work well, except the Marauder, which is its own topic.
Doomguy can finally swim.
The story does lead into very interesting level flow.
You can get every resource you need from killing stuff.
Falling isn't instant-death.

Cons:

The combat loop.  As Metallica wrote, "You can do it your own way - if it's done just how I say."  Use the "wrong" gun on a monster and you're gonna have a bad time.  Don't chainsaw often enough, or use flame belch, and you're gonna have a bad time.  The game gives you a lot of movement freedom in the combat arenas and especially with the dash mechanic, but with the exception of the fodder enemies you're pigeon-holed into using this gun on this monster and sniping weak points. 

Ammo shortage.  They took it way too far.  Marty Stratton said "Doom is demons and shotguns".  Well, they need to double the shotgun ammo.  When I saw the footage of the auto-shotgun I was very hyped up.  When I saw how fast you run out of ammo without using it on fodder demons AFTER mastering it...  that was severely disappointing.  Not being able to chainsaw super-heavies flat-out sucks.  This plus the combat loop also made item placement rather lazy for the designers.  2 shots with the BFG?  Yeah, screw up a BFG shot and you're gonna have a bad time, which is really nice when you run out of Chaingun ammo and it auto-switches.

The Unmayker.  Do I hate the weapon?  NO!  It's freaking awesome in concept and execution.  What I hate is that it shares ammo with the BFG, which you hardly get any for anyways, which effectively makes it USELESS.  You go through 6 Slayer Gates to get the thing, then find out that using it robs you of your most precious and rare resource.  It should have shared plasma ammo.  Unless you have the infinite ammo cheat on, it just collects dust on the wall.  It's fan service with a stick in the eye.

The Marauder... I've read every criticism, and I'll say this.  He works as a one-time boss encounter.  He should NOT be a repeat enemy.  Yes, you can own him with tactics, I can get rid of him fairly easily, but with the super-shield-of-invincibility that he can instantly deploy combined with the ammo shortage the average player - AVERAGE, mind you, none of that "git gud" stuff here - is going to have an un-enjoyable experience.

Platforming - as I've said before, I don't mind if it it's not contrived, but there's too much of the latter.

Doom Eternal is a great game that could be even better with a few minor adjustments.  Here's what I would do to fix it:

1 - Double the shell count.  Seriously, that's the only real fix to the ammo shortage needed.
2 - No Marauder mook encounters.  Keep him a unique boss.
3 - More chainsaw fuel pips, and let fuel regenerate to that pip instead of just the last pip, so you can saw a mook but still save fuel up for a bigger monster.  Make it part of the ammo upgrade system.
4 - Unmayker uses plasma ammo.
5 - Cut back on the forced air-monkey platforming sections.  Make the flow more natural.
6 - Make the normal punch do some damage!

I think if they did that the game would be even better.  My opinion of course, YMMV.
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« Reply #59 on: 2020-05-11, 06:06 »

@Makou

Despite not getting a Quake sequel, I am happy we got one for Quake II.  I enjoyed the game quite a bit.  It had some great wow moments, and I really enjoyed the vehicle sequences and the weapon upgrade system.  Lastly, Quake IV's nail gun is the best nail gun in the series.  Prove me wrong. :p

As for DOOM 3, I'm kind of a weirdo in that I've always liked the game.  I don't think it's flawless but I appreciate what id was trying to do, and I think Nerve really nailed the formula in Resurrection of Evil.

Going back to Quake, I would still love to see a sequel.  id Tech 7 has really impressed me with what it's capable of.

@Phoenix

You make a good point about the lack of BFG / Unmaykr ammo.  The last few levels have pick-ups but you are kind of screwed if you use either weapon elsewhere.  (Or miss the shot like you said.)  I think a good solution would be to have super heavies drop one thing of Argent ammo if you chainsaw them.

As for your other points:

1.) Shotgun ammo should definitely be increased.  Alternatively, maybe the flaming meat hook could make enemies drop ammo as well?

2.) I don't mind the mook encounters, but something definitely needs to change.  The immunity to super weapons is completely arbitrary, and there really needs to be some other way of dealing with his shield.  I think an easy solution would be to just make his shield like the Doom Hunter's.  You can still keep the wolf summon to try to dissuade players from going that route.

3.) Am I wrong or is it actually detrimental to collect a can of fuel while you're still recovering the first pip?  I'm pretty sure it just replaces the first pip instead of adding one.  Also, I find it very odd that you can cleave a super heavy in half with the Crucible yet have to stagger them to chainsaw.

4.) I have mixed feelings about this suggestion. 

The Unmaykr / Unmaker used cell ammo in DOOM 64, and it rendered the plasma rifle useless.  Eternal's plasma rifle is more versatile thanks to weapon mods but not by much.  The Heat Blast requires you to build up charge, and you can probably do more DPS with the Unmaykr in the same time-frame.  As for the Microwave beam, well... I love it but it takes damn long to be useful. 

There's also the matter of the Ballista.  It uses the same ammo type, and both mods eat through cells pretty quickly.  I feel like you'd have to increase the maximum number of cells you can carry to accomodate all three weapons.

5.) I disagree but I understand your viewpoint.  It does feel very game-y.  I like it because it helps break up the monotony of combat for me.

6.) I've mentioned this before but I feel like both the "Health for Blood" and "Armor for Blood" abilities go to waste because players rarely have full health or armor.  (That and you only have one blood punch charge for most of the game.)  It would make more sense for those two to simply increase damage output.

Lastly, there are two other changes I'd like to see that I'm curious to know your thoughts on.

1.) Extra lives should be tied in to checkpoint saves.  If I go into a fight with an extra life, and I lose both of my lives, I should still have that extra life when I reload my save.  Why would you punish someone who is already struggling?  Also, I understand changing this will make unlocking the Phobos skin easier but honestly, who cares?  I think gating off content for less skillful players is dumb.

2.) The types and number of enemies you fight in each encounter should change between difficulties.  Now I could be wrong.  DOOM Eternal could already be doing this.  But I have had to lower the difficulty on occasion, and I've noticed no difference between ITYTD, HMP, or UV.  Hell, the enemies even seem to have the same amount of health.  I was stuck on that 30 second Marauder challenge for quite a while, and the only change I really noticed is that armor seemed to actually do something I could take more damage.
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