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Author Topic: SADDAM HUSSEIN CAPTURED! (At least, we hope it's him)  (Read 36240 times)
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Devlar
 
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« Reply #80 on: 2003-12-19, 10:37 »

Many may feel they have no choice, but you always have a choice. Do, or do not.

By that mindset I could say that a person who is having a gun pointed at them by a thug demanding their money is in a buisness transation, he's not being robbed, he choses to hand over his money, since he could fight and possibly die...

Sovereignty is nothing more than people within a given region controlling their own lives as opposed to people in other lands having large amounts of influence on how they live.

In an ideal world, yes, in reality Sovereignty is defined as the absolute authority of a government within a territorial boarder. Not "the people" but "the government". If this government is Saddam Hussein he's allowed to do whatever he wants in his boarders, including genocide, and as long as he doesn't invade another sovereign country he's safe from any international intervention.

what system of governance would you then prefer that would guarantee human rights to not be infringed?

There are two models, the first one (and very optimistic one) would be confederal democracy, where smaller states are grown from down up and free movement is guaranteed among all, sort of the idea that Bengamin Barber creates in his Jihad Vs McWorld book. Yet this is most likely a virtual impossibility  since it would require a global revolution (sorry Marxists...). The far more likely one would be semi-sovereignty, in other words giving sovereignty except in certain very well structured cases, such as a global human rights code. In such a system you'd get sovereignty to a point but certain actions such as genocide and war crimes could result in your invasion. Not only would this scare politicians, but the biggest winners would be the people, win win situation as far as I'm concerned. The ICC is such an idea, or at least the start of one, I can only hope that your next President is smart enough to realize that.
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Tabun
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« Reply #81 on: 2003-12-19, 14:09 »

Hehe, this is where Poland is actually situated:

http://www.worldpress.org/profiles/Poland.cfm
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Tabun ?Morituri Nolumus Mori?
Devlar
 
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« Reply #82 on: 2003-12-19, 20:36 »

Look it is right where I left it Slipgate - Grin

Oooooo Please Elect Wesley Clark, the man respects the ICC. I can't seem to find a internet news article on this, but I just saw on the news that he appeared before the ICC in the trail of Molosovich. Maybe if he gets into office he'll ratify the Rome Charter and the ICC, giving us that sovereignty-lite I was talking about

EDIT - Found one
http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20031218_1668.html
« Last Edit: 2003-12-19, 20:40 by Devlar » Logged
dna
 
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« Reply #83 on: 2003-12-19, 20:50 »

Quote from: Devlar
I can only hope that your next President is smart enough to realize that.
Well, I doubt that.  As the big kid on the block, we don't need anything like the ICC.  I think we've just proved that.
I just really don't see the need for something like this.  Why would it be any different to have it around?  If a country sees another country comiting crimes like this, why do you need an official body to sanction invasion?  If you're serious about human rights, just do it.  
The way I see it, the world needs less Govt, not another buracracy to manage other peoples affairs.

Does having a response make you happier now?
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Devlar
 
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« Reply #84 on: 2003-12-20, 02:24 »

Does having a response make you happier now?

Yes I'm sitting in my chair getting all orgasmic!

I just really don't see the need for something like this. Why would it be any different to have it around? If a country sees another country comiting crimes like this, why do you need an official body to sanction invasion?

So you don't end up with the current situation of an administration using human rights abuses as an excuse to steal another countries natural resources. Human Rights not Imperialism

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dna
 
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« Reply #85 on: 2003-12-20, 04:08 »

So then?  Where was the ICC?  Where is it now?  Why don't we see it?  Surely just because America doesn't ratify it  doesn't mean it can't do anything.
Maybe ICC will declare war on us?

And...

I hope it's as good for you... etc etc etc Slipgate - Wink
« Last Edit: 2003-12-20, 04:09 by dna » Logged
Devlar
 
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« Reply #86 on: 2003-12-20, 10:22 »

So then? Where was the ICC? Where is it now?

Busy with Milosovich and the Rwanda trials

Why don't we see it? Surely just because America doesn't ratify it doesn't mean it can't do anything.

Unfortunately, thanks to the international order which we currently have, which is based on sovereignty, that's exactly what it means

Maybe ICC will declare war on us?

Maybe your next President will ratify it and no one will have to go to war with anyone

I hope it's as good for you... etc etc etc  

*lights up a cigar* Oh yeah baby, ready for an encore?
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dna
 
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« Reply #87 on: 2003-12-20, 16:11 »

Quote from: Devlar
So then? Where was the ICC? Where is it now?

Busy with Milosovich and the Rwanda trials

Why don't we see it? Surely just because America doesn't ratify it doesn't mean it can't do anything.

Unfortunately, thanks to the international order which we currently have, which is based on sovereignty, that's exactly what it means

Maybe ICC will declare war on us?

Maybe your next President will ratify it and no one will have to go to war with anyone

I hope it's as good for you... etc etc etc  

*lights up a cigar* Oh yeah baby, ready for an encore?
By your own arguements, if we don't ratify it, the ICC is powerless, so there won't be a war.

I'm dissappointed; you didn't put much thought into your last post.
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Devlar
 
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« Reply #88 on: 2003-12-21, 01:50 »

By your own arguements, if we don't ratify it, the ICC is powerless, so there won't be a war.

That is correct, nor have i stated any different anywhere else, nor am I going to argue that it works any different because that would be a lie. The international order works on a opt-in basis, due to sovereignty, if you don't opt in, it has no authority on you. So the idea is to get everyone to opt in to a fundamental basis which subverts sovereignty.

I'm talking about the way things should be, as far as the ICC goes it gives the US a considerable advantage in these types of disputes with the international community over so-called humanitarian invasions. It also avoids making the US look like a unilateral bully, like it does in Iraq, which would decrease the amount of terrorist activity aimed soley at the United States. So its not as if you'd be doing this out of the kindness of your heart, you get something in return as well. Something that was present for the Kosovo invasion but wasn't present during the Iraqi one, legitimacy. You might say "oh but we are big country with guns what do we need legitimacy for?", just remember, a bunch of guys with box knives killed 3000 people on 9/11, a large amount of guns will not save you from this new type of warfare, legitimacy will.
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« Reply #89 on: 2003-12-21, 04:55 »

Quote
I'm talking about the way things should be, as far as the ICC goes it gives the US a considerable advantage in these types of disputes with the international community over so-called humanitarian invasions. It also avoids making the US look like a unilateral bully, like it does in Iraq, which would decrease the amount of terrorist activity aimed soley at the United States. So its not as if you'd be doing this out of the kindness of your heart, you get something in return as well. Something that was present for the Kosovo invasion but wasn't present during the Iraqi one, legitimacy. You might say "oh but we are big country with guns what do we need legitimacy for?", just remember, a bunch of guys with box knives killed 3000 people on 9/11, a large amount of guns will not save you from this new type of warfare, legitimacy will.

Devlar, im actually in agreement with what you just posted.
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Phoenix
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« Reply #90 on: 2003-12-21, 08:10 »

Quote from: Devlar
a large amount of guns will not save you from this new type of warfare, legitimacy will.
Legitimacy accorded by whom?  The only thing legitimate to extremists of any type is body bags.  Being recognized as "legitimate" by some politbureau in Europe will change nothing in the hearts and minds of people in developing countries who see richer nations as decadent and thuggish.  They will see the ICC and any OTHER big powerful body no differently.  Hitler used this formula in the 1930's to convince Germany to go to war.  Remember who he blamed?  He blamed the Jews and the other rich, powerful capitalists for Germany's poverty and shame.  Take the poor and desperate, convince them it is someone else's fault, and feed their anger until it becomes an inferno, and you have WWII.  THIS is the formula that is being perpetuated in the Islamic world right now.  Have you all forgotten the lessons of history so quickly?  You said it yourself Devlar, "bullying" has made people angry, so now they're lashing out.  If that's the case, do you honestly think they'll stop because some international body just up and says so?  These people have nothing to lose because they have nothing at all.  Do you think the terrorists who are convinced they'll get 70 virgins when they die in a fiery plane crash are going to "respect international law"?  We're talking about people who are not afraid to die in order to take people out.  You cannot reason with that sort of thinking by claiming some phantom moral high-ground that they cannot relate to!  The only way you can change their minds in the long run is to show their twisted religious brainwashing to be false, as some in Saudi Arabia are now attempting to do, or stop them before they can attack, which is what the "War on Terror" is attempting to do.  They must either be convinced that killing is wrong, or be killed themselves.  There is no other way.  This genie is well out of the bottle.  You cannot put it back in and hope to magically make this all go away.  It is folly!
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Devlar
 
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« Reply #91 on: 2003-12-21, 10:28 »

Legitimacy accorded by whom? The only thing legitimate to extremists of any type is body bags. Being recognized as "legitimate" by some politbureau in Europe will change nothing in the hearts and minds of people in developing countries who see richer nations as decadent and thuggish. They will see the ICC and any OTHER big powerful body no differently.

Which is not the case. Some will not, this is true, but take a good look at how many times the UN gets attacked compared to how many times the US (or Israel) gets attacked abroad. Some don't see it as legitimate, but some will not see anything that doesn't favour their cause as legitimate, what we have seen though, is that for the masses the UN is seen as legitimate, even in the middle east. The UN doesn't get attacked as often because for the most part its seen as part of the solution not as part of the problem, the US has the opposite image.

He blamed the Jews and the other rich, powerful capitalists for Germany's poverty and shame. Take the poor and desperate, convince them it is someone else's fault, and feed their anger until it becomes an inferno, and you have WWII. THIS is the formula that is being perpetuated in the Islamic world right now.

Except in the case of the Islamic world the formula is fairly accurate, globalization which is being pushed through at the expense of the majoirty of arabs in the middle east by rich capitalists from the west is largely responsible for the fact that they live under monarchal oppressive regimes, simply because they are pro-US. Kuwait and Saudi Arabia are not on the chopping block, not because they are massive human rights abusers, because they are, but simply because they support US interests. If there was a fundamental basis in human rights in international politics, regimes like those in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia would not be allowed to exist, even if the US objected, someone would take care of them, and their actions would be seen as legitimate, right now they are tied up in a broken system that was created 500 years ago and has long since become obsolite.

You said it yourself Devlar, "bullying" has made people angry, so now they're lashing out. If that's the case, do you honestly think they'll stop because some international body just up and says so? These people have nothing to lose because they have nothing at all. Do you think the terrorists who are convinced they'll get 70 virgins when they die in a fiery plane crash are going to "respect international law"?

Yes i think they could, because these terrorists are not born terrorists. If we create an environment for these people to develop where they are poverty striken, because the US supports regimes that take away all their property, where they are not shot at constantly with guns that the US gave to the Israelis, where they DO have something to lose, because they are able to support themselves and their families, then there will not be anti-US terrorists for very long, then you will get respect for human rights. Terrorism is a symptom of the current system not a cause of it.
« Last Edit: 2003-12-21, 10:35 by Devlar » Logged
Phoenix
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« Reply #92 on: 2003-12-21, 13:14 »

Quote from: Devlar
Yes i think they could, because these terrorists are not born terrorists.
In the long term, yes, I agree there.  This is entirely true.  Everyone does have a choice as to how to live their life, but if the only message they are getting is one of hatred then a more appealing alternative must be provided.  However, the short-term is the problem.  How to break the cycle of violence is the question, and the cycle must be broken before this can come to pass.  Israel is a fine example of this.  The desire for vengeance is strong - too strong - so that any time the table is approached someone blows someone else up, and it starts all over again.  The only thing moving forward is the body count on both sides.  I fear it will end only when a wall is built to completely divide them, or else when one people exterminates the other.

As for the UN, well I'll give them this much credit as far as providing leadership goes - they pulled out of Baghdad and fled to Qatar after the first attack against them.  Kind of hard to get attacked repeatedly when you cut and run at the first sign of trouble!  Thumbs up!  
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Devlar
 
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« Reply #93 on: 2003-12-22, 00:14 »

As for the UN, well I'll give them this much credit as far as providing leadership goes - they pulled out of Baghdad and fled to Qatar after the first attack against them. Kind of hard to get attacked repeatedly when you cut and run at the first sign of trouble!

At that point it wasn't their war, they had no sanctioned it, they had nothing to gain by remaining there and aiding the unilateral American effort. They are still knee deep in Afghanistan, you remember that place that the US forgot about? with that Osama fellow. Although the Taliban is trying to make a come back, there are considerably fewer attacks on the UN forces there than on the US forces in Iraq.

However, the short-term is the problem. How to break the cycle of violence is the question, and the cycle must be broken before this can come to pass.

You are correct, the improvement in conditions seems like the wisest path at the moment though, we have proven repeatedly that violence cannot be fought with violence especially in regards to terrorism.

Israel is a fine example of this. The desire for vengeance is strong - too strong - so that any time the table is approached someone blows someone else up, and it starts all over again. The only thing moving forward is the body count on both sides. I fear it will end only when a wall is built to completely divide them, or else when one people exterminates the other.

I doubt anyone will be able to solve the Israeli problem, its a religious thing, something that would survive until the last jew or the last arab are dead in that country. Even if the Israeli problem cannot be solved, the anti-US one can be, since it not based on religious tension but rather on economic convenience.
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