Wirehead Studios

I first arrived at Gen SPECIFICALLY for the purpose of getting true old-school style gameplay (with limits) recreated in the Q3 environment. And initially, that seemed to be a reality. Authenticity was WH's Numero Uno priority.

Unfortunately, stuff happened between now and then. People started complaining about imbalance, and suddenly WH's priorities shifted. It was balance over authenticity now, and we have ended up with a bastardized, nerfed version. Not that I'm complaining, of course.

But I read the manual, and... lo and behold, an "old school" version was proposed. 99~100% authenticity, it proposed. No "balancing", no complaining.

What I exactly wanted in the beginning.

Thank you SO much. I only hope this will be carried to fruition. And happy Chinese New Year - may the team's years and releases remain prosperous. I hear it's the Year of the Rooster - just Pho's type of year. ;)

(Bring on the sticky-rice-stuffed duck!)

Edit: I believe I missed the feedback thread. Perhaps a move is in order?

No moves necessary, and yes, I'm dead set on making old-school mode a reality.  :thumb:

... i hope so... nerfing Q3A BFG, or DooM's health drop, are small but annoying details that further detach this MOD from what was supposed to be: a TRUE battle between generations = each class with their own settings right, not nerfed for slight 'balance'. Can't rule qith SlipGaters? Upgrade your skill! Think Earth Mortar is though? Giv'it PLASMA!... never thought i'd write this but: KEEP IT REAL! (doh... so ashamed)...

Well, it's a very interesting discussion... what is better, a 100% faithful recreation or a somewhat altered but more balanced game?
Although I too would like to see as little changes to the originals as possible, I think it is necessary to alter them somewhat, if it helps balance. You see, if 1 or 2 classes are distinctly stronger than the rest, this will result in the other classes not getting chosen much. I think that'd be a waste of all the effort, and wouldn't do the "Generations"-idea much good either, if most games would consist of Earth/DOOM guys, for instance.
However, with the addition of an oldskool mode everybody wins! :D
So, assuming this mode is implemented properly (and I have no doubt it will ;)), Gen should appeal to everyone, methinks. ;P

True old-skool mode sounds the absolute dog's IMO. So instead of 5 different ways to play Gen we'll have 10  :thumb:

Uh, what Doom health drop?

And we by no means nerfed the q3BFG. It's now even more dangerous to groups, although lone individuals now have a chance to avoid it.

Personally, I'd rather have a bit of balance, so that all the classes get play time. This isn't DooMer-ations, where we line Stroggers up for target practice.

So far, we've only nerfed (which means to lower the effectiveness of) a few things. The Doom SSG and Slipgate's armor values. We simply removed the random damage from the first, and halved the pickups of the second to match the other classes.

We're staying as close as possible to the originals. Of course, old-school mode will be fun too, but not for every-day play.

Let me explain why balance is important. If the classes are imbalanced the people will play one or two classes and ignore the rest of them. Does anyone recall how horribly the classes were balanced in battlefield vietnam? how if you didnt have an M60 you were pretty much smoked? was that fun? i guess nostalgia is more important to some people than gameplay. Im not saying a classic mode isnt a good idea but lets not start pretending they were wrong to consider balance in the Gen.

This discussion right here is exactly why both gameplay modes will be available.  <3

Classic mode is good for kicks, Default mode should be good for everything else ;]

Also, the term 'nerfed' is really getting on my nerves (pun intended). It implies that something is turned into a foamy softish utterly weak and useless condition. In that sense, nothing has ever been nerfed in Generations. Alterations are never made to remove the ability to use something, but always to get a balanced gaming experience. There's no need to give that a negative twist in any way.

I'll dare anyone wishing for true old-school gaming to be default to play me in old-school mode (when it's done) for days on end in the future, and tell me with a straight face that it doesn't get old. I'm thinking Doom. I'm thinking pain. ;]

... meh... i still think the Slippy's nailspitteries are slower than originally - and given that Slip and Earth share one of same weakenesses - they usually aren't chosen (the Slips).  lining Stroggs? Why? They have Hyperblasters, rails, and most importantly (for this specific point), CHAINGUNS. Again, i see it as a matter of adaptability to each classe's strong points and weaknesses. Obviously, one doesn't play DooM and Strogg the same way, or Gladiators. They have differences and those are what really makes GEN a fun mod. I'm not over-chriticising the mod-team decisions on this, but i DO want to make a stand that things should not be 'leveled' at times...




... also ConFu, i must be confusing it with other, but i'm sure i did saw health drop on a class it wasn't (theorethically) supposed to drop -  and i'm almost sure it was DooM, but oh well... (humm... or armor drop?)...

... also... i'm not quite following this old-skool mode (after all GEN was supposed to be it?!)...

... i did got shocked when i first got Q3A BFG in GEN, thinking in green storm, and suddenly a puff of DooM-wannabe minty came out. Nerf might be a harsh term, but the definite 'alteration' of the shoot type did put me aside...

In my experience, the mod is fun to play when:

a) Every class has that nostalgia-feel to it.
b) When no single class becomes the prime choice (for lamers), because it is overpowered
c) and, thusly; The Random-Class mode is not an easy way to reduce your winning chances, but the most enjoyable and appealing to play with.

Now, I realise some people really don't give a rats ass about how they're faring, but I personally get really annoyed at people beating me because they pick Doom class in Howling Wilderniss and camping the GL room. If all maps would play that way, in no-time everyone wanting to get some frags would have to switch to a specific class and strategy -- leaving no enjoyment for newbies and fun-players alike.

---

And on the subject of the Q3BFG, the weapon is just cool. You can't argue with cool. That it's more imaginative, takes a bit more skill to use and provides hilarious situations and great screenshots are all bonuses, although I guess some people don't like any of those things.

Lack of balance is why the Wolf3D class in Q2Gen, as a whole, sucked. The only person I've ever witnessed doing well with it (are you ready for this one?) is Phoenix. And let's be honest, that's a bit of a bad measuring stick to use. ;)

But, I agree entirely with Tabun on this one. If everything was 100% accurate to the old games, then everybody would be using Doom. And nothing but Doom. Doom's issue right now is being mostly ineffective at long range. Give him back his 60MPH running speed and overdamaging weapons (random damage SSG and RL) and even that much goes away. The other classes would be left holding the bag, as nothing could really stop him.

That's why the "balanced" game is going to be default, but for you nutters out there who really want pain, there's going to be an "oldschool" mode. :)

Nahand: Slipgate's nails fly at the same speed as his rockets, which fly at a speed identical to Q1. There are times when I can use them efffectively -- they've always been reduced to a close-range weapon. If you're trying to use them like a chaingun, well, there's your problem.

... about the Q3A BFG, i think it would be tasty to keep it asnormal Q3A, that's all. I like screenshot galleries a lot, and demos a whole lotter (<- a word?), but keeping the BFG as is would add that extra way of killing and proper 'identity' to what is in fact a BFG from Quake 3 Arena. I know you won't change it, but i just keep defending this (why, i don't really know either, but i know i must)...

... on the Slippy nails subject: i know it's been discussed before, and said that they are true to the original. Can't argue against facts, but it feels weird all right...

...  also, the DooM class seems indeed to be the most used already. I know about it's might with Rocket Launcher, Plasma, BFG, and even SSG (or chainsaw runners), and surely know that Slippy lacks in some departments to effectively directly counter other classes, but that is part of it...

... further more: when i said the Slippy had some "things" to it, it was namely about using 3 ammo types for main 6 weapons. To me that is the major backdrop of Slippy, not the lack of long-range "touch" weapons. But with that i can't argue: it was part of the original game for design purposes...

The latter actually strikes me as a positive thing: Slippy can get his hands on rockets where grenade-based weapon owners cannot, just like Doom.

Here's a trick for when you can't get nails working for you: Imagine you're using the hyperblaster. I see many people using good leading tactics and tricks for getting hyper shots in, but failing entirely to hit a single nail. They're the same kind of weapon, and tactics for either one work on the other.

I've been through the nail discussion many.. MANY.. times. I am, after all, still a Slipgate fanatic. I still think that the nails just 'feel' slower.. even went so far as to say that maybe the nail model is perhaps the problem. Seeing a smaller model might make it 'seem' a little faster.

In the end tho.. they are right. The trick is using the nailgun (I never use the nailgun, only the super.. so all my references to 'nailgun' are about the super nailgun) when it is most appropriate. Usually in up close and maybe mid-range battles when you lack a rocket launcher. Get the quad... it makes the gun the uhh... shit.. I forget what that combo was called in q1... doesn't really matter anyway, let's just say that it's friggin nasty. Rapid fire kibble making machine (Two.. TWO nails gibs an unarmored, newly spawned player).

The normal nailgun though... I don't know what it is, but it doesn't feel right. Thing is, I can't really say why.

Use the weapons the way they're meant to be used.. Slippy doesn't HAVE to be a 1-gun man. He has the best spam cannon in rapid fire grenades.. meat grinder for up close.. lightning blaster that eats ammo faster than popcorn... abuse the rapid weapon switching ninja powers... ABUSE them I say!

:ownage:

I abuse mi.....  euhm , nevermind .

And if you actually LIKE the q3BFG, there is a server variable to change it BACK to its original form. Read the manual for details.

I agree. The normal nailgun does not seem right. It might be the sound. Or maybe it moves a bit to much. It is excellent, but not the same as the Q1 gun.   :ownage:



The gun we all know and love:

Actually, I think the sound can make quite a difference, at least for how the weapon 'feels'.
Earlier today, in a nostalgic mood, I started up Q2 Generations again. And the DOOM guy SSG was so much more gratifying to fire there, because of that delicious *BOOM* *click-click* sound. Maybe it's a built up association from filling some monster's guts with 20 pellets while hearing that sound, but for some reason it just sounds real good. :P
Same with the Q2 Rocket Launcher, back in Q2 it was a great "bombs away!" sound, while in our Gen it's more of a screech. Again, might be just in my head, because I'm so used to the original Q2 RL sound that the Gen sound now sounds 'wrong' to me, regardless of what it actually sounds like.
Oh well, even though the exact original sounds are out of the question for copyright reasons :/, I understand Gen 1.0 will have some new sounds, so I'm hopeful for some improvements. :P
But, so, anyways, for me at least, the way a gun sounds can definetely influence how 'good' it feels to me.

Oh, and yeah, I thought the Q1 (Super) Nailgun wasn't as useful as I remembered too, but I never played Q1 multiplayer, and yer average human opponent is a lot faster and more evasive than brainless beasts, so that might explain it, for me at least.

Sounds *do* have a lot to do with the feel of a weapon, and some of ours are quite off.

Unfortunately, we don't have a sound engineer, despite trying to find one for about three years now.

Also, playing against human opponents is drastically different than playing against monsters. The difference is even greater in Gen, as everyone but Earth moves faster than skippy, either through strafejumping or by innate speed. It's a lot harder to hit a fast moving player than a slow one, and the nails don't do splash damage.

Ok here we go..this is my PERSONAL thoughts about this:

RANT
First of all Gen is NOT quake 1! if you want everything as it was in q1 well go play quake then! The idea behind generations is that you can choose 4 diffrent classes (not counting Arena) and try to emulate the old playing style for each of those classes.
If you have to get these things work together somethings HAS to be changed..how fun whould it be if DooM owned all?

And if we are bringing up the ol slippy nailgun thing again so yes the nails where as fast as the rockets in q1. And yes i to think the nails are still a bit slow.
Why? i don't know they have the exact speed as in q1 but some things popped in my mind:

First the q1 maps where quite small and narrow, most q3 maps are quite wide and large.
Second the player model was smaller
Third i think the player speed was around 320 in q1 i might be wrong here but that was just a guess.
It could howerver  have an impact on "something"

And i think the generations nailgun model is fine!
After all one part of gen is about getting those weapons to look even better than they did in their original games!

And i agree about the current sounds some of them do sound awfull.
But if anyone of you are a skilled sound engineer why not give us some help?

Final word: Let Generations be Generations and Q1 be Q1 :)

PS: I am not angry just in a ranting kind of mood :)

/RANT

Now, I wouldn't exactly frown upon people making their own compilations of sounds ripped straight from Quake1, 2 or Doom, for example. We'll never support or (re)distribute such  illegal pk3s, but I'm some people would like to give them a try.
I haven't done so myself, because I'm actually still hoping for a good sound engineer to come along...

Even if someone did create a PK3 of illegally ripped sounds, they wouldn't hear them on a server with sv_pure activated, so there would almost be no point in it.

Some reasons the nails may seem slow:

1)  The model we have is physically larger for the projectile because people had complained it had been hard to see.
2)  The maps are physically larger
4)  Doomers run fast
5)  Quakeworld does not interpolate projectile positions

All of this combines to make the nails feel slower.  I can do something about the projectile model, I can't do anything else.  I think what I'll do is just go back to the old 4 triangle spike, make it the same size as the Q1 spike, and put a minimum light value on it instead of trying to dress it up and make it fancy.  Will that make everyone happy?

As far as sounds go, yes I know that's an issue.  Reload sounds are missing on a lot of guns, and some of our sounds just plain suck right now.  I can probably take care of some reload sounds like the Doom SSG, but good weapon firing sounds are hard to do because, frankly, it requires someone standing around with a microphone while a gun goes off.  Places where guns are allowed to go off without someone going to jail consist of areas that typically are not friendly to recording - either outdoors, or in a firing range with 20 other people firing at the same time.  The alternative is a sound studio with a sound engineer that knows how to make something sound like a gun going off, or else free sound files found wherever you can.  I've looked at the last option, and frankly everything I've found so far sucked, which is why I've not used them.  (This is a hint for people to go on a scavenger hunt)  Some things I was able to adapt, but most of the sounds are "placeholders" for now - something you hear that can at least let you know you fired, and doesn't sound 100% identical to every stock Q3 weapon so you can tell the classes apart.

There's another concern with sounds, and that's how to handle them with weapon frames.  I don't want a shotgun "boom....click....click" that lasts across 1200 milliseconds to still take 1200 milliseconds if someone grabs the Time Accelerator.  It should speed it up to "boom-cli-click".  This means the sounds have to be split up by frame, so if someone HAD recorded a nice sound for us that sounded close to the Q2 shotty for example then I'd have to split the sound up manually, which would cause a problem with the reverb from the gunshot bleeding into the reload noise.  I know this doesn't seem like a big issue when the gun is running at turbo speed, but I'm a technically finicky bird when it comes to this sort of thing, especially if you want to terminate the sounds when someone dies if the gun was in a BFG prefire frame and don't want the firing noise to actually play.

In regards to the Slipgate nailgun, keep in mind we do not yet have the weapons properly animated.  What you're seeing with the current nailgun is just a hacked-in borrowed version of the tag interpolation that normally positions the gun mapped over to the weapon model.  In layman's terms that means "we borrowed the crappy Q3 animation code to test something".  I'm just now writing the code to do proper gunframes for the Strogg Troopers.  Once I have that perfected I can begin writing the code to get all the other classes to do the same.  For those who are scoffing and think weapons will never get animated, you can kiss my finely feathered avian ass, because I've already got both frames and interpolation working for Strogg, and Tab's already ahead of you on the models, and we're not giving spoiler pics.  :ninja: