Wirehead Studios

...havent seen it yet.. but I have some comments on the stupid hype its getting:

1, why is it.. all of a sudden, all these christians see this movie, and all of a sudden they think their 'better christians' (exact quote from an interview on tv, yes i know.. media spun.. but) ... after having seen it..  is it that their just too lazy to actually read the bible? or is it they are only what i call  'convenient christians' .. christians that are only that, when its convenient for them

2, anti semetic, this one really chafes me, it may or may not be anti semetic, but why is that all of a sudden a ticket to criticize the movie when its supposed to be a realistic movie? If we go by history, that its completely true! this is like saying we cant watch WW2 movies because the Nazis put the jews in concentration camps

3, Violence.. uhm, i havent seen it.. but regardless.. i dont see how this movie can be anymore violent than SPR, Gladiator, or the like, but as soon as they slap the name Christ on it it becomes too violent?  ......this opinion may change after i SEE it.. but still.


*eagerly awaits Pho's response.. fun reading :)

All 3 of those can be answered simply:
Most Christians, aren't.

My take:
(Note: I am not a religious person and my main reason for seeing the film is because of the positive reviews i've read of it thus far and of course all the hype and controversy)


The Passion is an incredibly powerful film. Its repulsive, disgusting, uplifting and wonderful all at the same time. (and if it wern't religious it would've been an NC-17, easy).

The film works on many different levels, the only problem I had with it being the scenes where Jesus is bringing the cross to the hill. That scene dragged on FOREVER. That scene aside, I really enjoyed everything about the film. From the bizarre visuals of Satan and the subplot of Judas and Peter to the hard-to-watch torture scenes. Its all done without flaw.

If it wouldn't have been for that cross dragging scene dragging on far too long, this would have been a 4 star movie to me, as it stands, its a 3.5.


The film is all around gorgous, the cinematography and lighting being some of the best i've seen in a film in the past ten years. From the ominouss dark blue backdrop of night in the beginning to the bleak, washed out feilds at the end, the film has a great atmosphere.

The music was good, not distracting, but well implemented when used.

Recommended

WORD OF WARNING

This thread will NOT be a forum for posting anti-Christian, anti-Semitic, or any other anti-religious rhetoric.  Please keep it on topic.  If you don't like the movie, that's fine, say why, but NO BASHING of any kind will be tolerated on this thread.  Any replies that seek to:

1)  Blame Christianity and/or religion for all the worlds evils
2)  Attack Christianity and/or any other religion
3)  Attack any individual(s) for their beliefs (or lack thereof)

Will be subsequently deleted.  NO FLAMING.  If you can't have a reasonable discussion about this topid, then don't post here.  The usual parties know who they are in this respect.  NO POLITICS.  I'm tired of any topic that involves a religious subject turning political.  Keep it on topic please.

That being said, let's move on.


Well, I've not seen it yet myself.  I'm going to wait for the theatres to become a little less busy.  I have been keeping track of the movie for some time now though, on and off.  I'll try to answer your questions as best as I can. :)


The answer there is two-fold.  Most movies that depict what Christ went through in his final hours are, shall we say, "family friendly".  Here's what the prophet Isiah had to say:

Isaiah 52:14:"... His visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men"

I'm sure you've heard the term "beaten beyond recognition" ?  He was beaten so badly that he could not be recognized as HUMAN.  Most people cannot contemplate this kind of torture.  Most Christians don't like to think unhappy thoughts.  Seeing something like this gives them a very visceral experience.  It's one thing to say "He was whipped and nailed to a cross".  It's another thing to watch it happen.  As a Christian, you are humbled and you begin to apreciate just what your God went through to buy your salvation.

As far as the "luke-warm" Christians, God has this to say about them in Revelation:  

Revelation 3:15 - 18:  I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.  So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of my mouth.  Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:  I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Basically what's being said is "You're wishy-washy.  You won't commit to your faith, you just play at it.  I'll reject you for this.  You're more focused on money and material things, and are blind to the fact that you're spiritually empty.  Quit pretending!  Wake up and see yourselves for what you are, then straighten yourselves out and get with the program."

A lot of people who go through the motions, go to church or mass, and don't really live according to the Word are getting a wake-up call when they go to see this.  How many will actually take it to heart, well, who knows.


The only people claiming it's anti-Semetic is the ADL so far as I've checked.  A lot of the people working on the film ARE JEWISH.  What nationality was Jesus's mother, by the way?  She was Jewish.  How can it be anti-Semetic?  From what I've seen the  people criticizing the film are squawking because they say it makes it look like the Jews - not the Romans - were responsible for Christ's death.

As a rule, I don't preach on the boards, but this is an area I need to correct.  If you are a Christian, and believe the bible, then Christ crucified Christ.  How does that work you say?  Jesus offered himself as a sacrifice for the sins of man.  He chose to die.  He did not have to.  How?  

St. John 18:10-11: Then Simon Peter  having a sword drew it, and smote the ear of the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear.  The servant's name was Malchus.  Then said Jesus unto Peter, "Put up thy sword into thy sheath:  the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?"

Also in St. Matthew 26:51-56:  And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.  Then said Jesus unto him, "Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.  Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve Legions of angels?  But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?"  In that same hour said Jesus to the multitudes, "Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves for to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye laid no hold on me.  But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled." Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.

So in this sense Christ new exactly what was happening.  He could have stopped it if he wanted to.  As a Christian, it is wrong to place blame on the Jews OR the Romans for the crucifixion.  This was a gift from God to man, not a martyrdom.  There is a big difference.  A lot of people, even so-called Christians, do not understand this.  Lack of understanding is usually the breeding ground for blame and hatred.  Christians, well, except us birds, are still human after all, and nobody is perfect.  This is why educating yourself is crucial, and being slow to rise to judgement of others is always a good idea too.


Well, this is where we get back to the "Christian themes can't be violent" problem.  The bible is FULL of violence.  In the Old Testament you have God saying to the jews "Go thee forth and slay".  They wiped out entire cultures.  Jesus said "turn the other cheek" to his disciples, but to ignore violence is to ignore a great deal of the bible.  Being a Christian also doesn't mean you have to be a goody-little-two-shoes and behave like the Cleavers.  Jesus got violent.  Want to hear?

Matthew 21:12-13: And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, And said unto them, "It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves."

People get this idea of Christ as some kind of flower-child with dreamy eyes and Ghandi-like behavior.  Can you imagine Christ being stark-raving mad, running around, hollering, whipping, and chasing people out of the temple, knocking over their tables?  This place was supposed to be a holy place, and here people were selling animals and changing money, and he was absolutely furious.  Ever see those "What would Jesus Do?" T-shirts?  Think of what Jesus did when he felt righteously angry.  Being a Christian does NOT mean you have to be a sissy or a wimp.  It does mean that you have to give account for your actions, but debating the apropriateness of the application of forceful response for a Christian is beyond the scope of this thread.

Anyway, those are my answers.  I hope they're satisfactory.

I am virilantly anti-religion, its fairly obvious to see that from the tirades I go on around here

That being said, the prinicipal of Freedom of Speech works on the assumption that you will allow something to be seen and heard even if you disagree with it

All of this stupidity about anti-semitism and violence is of little consequence. Honestly, I don't know why you hear such an uproar against a film that's based on a book that largely is anti-semetic yet you hear very little critique of the book itself but only of the film. Also why do we not hear that the movie is anti-Italian? Since even if the heads of the jewish establishment weaved a plot to kill Jesus, it was a Roman who finally speared him.

Another fine episode of "you have the right to be offended"

Oh and Phoenix, religion is politics

I find that a very interesting comment, considering over half the bible (the entire Old Testament) was written by Jews, Jesus WAS a Jew, and so were his disciples.

As for the statement about religion being politics, I am not exactly sure of your intentions, but please do not use that declaration as a logic attempt to try to worm around the warning I've stated above.  There are no constitutional rights on the Wirehead board.  Freedom of speech is at the discretion of those in charge of the forums.  Moderators are the gods here, and if this goes off topic or someone attempts to take over the topic I'll invoke a little divine intervention. :)

I am in total aggrement with Phoenix on the above mentioned.  This thread will stay on topic, for a change, unlike some other topics, it will not turn into a bashing thread like so many before it, I know the general consensus on this subject.  As do many others, this will be enforced, if you force me to mod it, its up to you.

What I meant is the uproar centers around the fact that Jews are not shown in a very good light in the movie, but then so what? they aren't shown in a very good light in the book either (well the Jews that remain Jewish), yet there is no uproar against the New Testament. That is what I meant. Converting the accounts of a book to a movie yet only attacking the movie as anti-semetic but not the book itself is a rather interesting phenomenon that makes you go "hmm"

Yes Lilazzkicker, I'm sure Phoenix needs your moral support

Nice dig there, Devlar. :beer:

Personally I think there's enough attacking in the world as it is.  Besides, there's plenty of people who attack the bible regularly, especially in the more intellectually elite circles.  Oobey views it as a work of fiction himself, although I must admit, we do get along just fine, and can have rational discussions about religion and science.  I don't understand why some people feel they shouldn't.  But then, understanding is what this movie is all about.  And we ARE talking about the movie in this thread.  :)

Phoenix, Devlar, all of wirehead... I come to you as a changed man. Before I saw this film, I admit I was full of hatred and malice towards Jesus Christ, Savior of Mankind. I never understood the suffering that our Lord went through to forgive us for our sins, and lead us from eternal damnation.

Phoenix, I would like to apologize for any cynicism I held towards you or your teachings before. I admit I was not fully prepared to see them, but now that I have seen the light deep within them, I ask if you can forgive me, and accept me as one of your own.

But more importantly... Devlar, like you, I once hated religion for many reasons, reasons I had convinced myself were true. But now... now I must ask you to look deep within yourself. Like I once did, you have a built a cold callous shell towards the outside world, but even you cannot deny there is something that is tearing at you, saying that this isn't right. Devlar, that is the voice of Christ. Through your hatemongering, you are leading yourself down a path of eternal damnation, and an existence defined by pain and suffering. Ask yourself, child, if this is really the path you wish for yourself in the eternal afterlife. I implore you to see this film, and reevaluate your life, and the path you're going down. I ask this not for my sake, but for yours.

May the Lord Jesus Christ be with you at all times.

Well, I have nothing against the bible itself as a piece of writing, its a great story even I will admit that with some great lessons to pull out from it. I have a far greater problem with people who feed others the bits and parts in order to elicit a desired response.

Back to the movie though, I'm going to go see it on the weekend, mainly as a treat to my mother who is a catholic. I'm sure it'll be brutal, I'm sure it'll descriminate, but honestly it'll most likely be a far nicer picture than what was in my head the first time I read the book.

EDIT:

I'm okay with what I'm doing. I might take a job offer to go record human rights abuses in Chechnya for a year. I'm okay with where I'm going. If this means hell, and I am to be whipped for all eternity, that's okay too. At least in my mind, when I go I go free and without strings. Oh I love the sarcasm ^_^

Honestly, who thought Braveheart was anti-British?

People are no fun when they don't take your bait.  ;)

The worm actually has to look like a worm first, so in the grandeur of monty python "Your not fooling anyone you know?"

I'm a christian ,  type 1) byt the way , or atleast the last 2 sentences , I dont have a problem with hedhuntas post  :unsure:

Well, I'll probably wait for this one to come out on DVD or VHS before I see it.  It sounds really interesting, and I'm looking forward to seeing it, but I rarely go out to see a movie in the theaters unless it's one that  I've been waiting for a long time.   I do not mean that in a derogatory manner either.  The last movie I saw in theaters was the Matrix Revolutions.  The last one before that was Terminator 3 I believe.  I'd just rather play games in my spare time as I get more bang for the buck. :P

Pho: thank you.. just skimmed your reading, but it looks good so far..  and i did not intend to start a flame war, i just wanted to vent my concern on the hype the movie is getting..  not that i do or do not like the movie.. once ive seen it i will say that.

Apparently it's so emotional it causes heart attacks!
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/Central/02/26/p...reut/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/Central/02/26/passion.death.reut/index.html)

Hed:  No problem.  We're  trying to keep this discusion just that - a discussion.  I don't want a flame war anymore than you do.  If you want to bring up a topic for discussion then I feel you have a  right to do so without  having to worry about a flame war resulting.  That's why we have moderators - to keep the board civil, even if controversial. :)

Life of Brian was good...anyone see that?

im sure the film does depict individual  jews as responsible for death of christ but saying that makes it anti semetic is like me saying me saying RTCW is anti german. Really  lets stop being whiney bitches.

this being my first post, I'm going to try and make it good.

I personally will see the movie when it comes out on VHS.  Partly because I'm cheap, and partly because I don't want to support its box-office performance.

I'd love to see something really meaningful that helps explain why Christianity seems irrational at times.  I acknowledge that, being a religion, it's based on faith, not rationality, but I'd generally rather have faith in something verifiable than something ... not verifiable.
I see the bible as a work of fiction; maybe not directly fiction, but it has been translated so many times via so many different languages, I don't see how it could be taken literally.
I haven't read the bible (though it is on my to do list) and am not a Christian, so the body of my knowledge about Christianity, or any religion, is from my dad being a philosophy major.

despite being fanatically unreligious, I do believe that Christ died for our sins.  And thus I believe the only real way to quicken the Second Coming (or Third, as I like to include the Buddha) is to sin as much as possible so that someone new needs to come and die.

despite being raised in an environment slightly hostile to Christianity, I think my major argument is the same as my father's:  If there is an all-powerful, omniscient God, why would he not show that he exists, and then punish you for eternity for not believing in him?  and if that's the case, I'd rather not believe in him just to spite him.

I know I'm oversimplifying things, but that seems to be how Christianity is presented to people who aren't that ready to investigate.
Really, I hope to better understand the point of view of Christianity by seeing the movie, but I'm still not seeing it until it comes out on VHS.

and I agree with Devlar: religion is politics.  At least for people who aren't religious.

After just seeing the movie, I came out with really two things:

1 - sporking wow

2 - Mr. Gibson, everyone else involved in the making of this movie.. Thank You..


I would honestly suggest this movie, especially to people who hate religion.
I'm not talking about converting people here, but everything Jesus stood for is at the heart of every humanitarian belief.

The guy preached love of humanity, and was crucified for it. And even then, as they're hanging him on the cross he prays for the very people who did this to him.

Even if you're not christian, watch it with an open mind. The conviction in the man is staggering. Place yourself in his shoes.

After watching the movie, do you think there is ANYTHING you could stand for while taking that kind of abuse? THAT is the power of the man's love of humanity. THAT is the strength of character that is needed to truly help people. To pray for the people who betrayed him, tortured him, and hung him out to die. Forgiveness is one thing, but to wish for the prosperity of those who have wronged you... I don't think anyone here can honestly say they could do it.

damman , I saw part of it , I loved the part with the women dressed up like men to go trowing stones at a guy .

Having actually seen the movie now, I can offer up my full unabridged thoughts on the movie...

Wow.

I went to see it today, I think it got too much hype, too much contraversy
The cinematography was grand, but honestly the movie wasn't really structured around the point of jesus (the message) as much as showing the brutal way he was put down

So for me i think it was too much fluff not enough real content

That was the entire POINT of the movie.

I cannot say that I hate religion, for I am technically a theist myself, but to that I can only offer another quote, which is something I've always stood by:

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so  unlike your Christ."  -Mahatma Gandhi

Speaking as a Christian myself, I must agree that many who wear the label need to be more like the one whom it's named for.  Hypocricy and apostacy is a very real problem.  That is why I credit Mr. Gibson for making this movie.  Maybe some of these will learn something from it.  Maybe it will change some hearts.

In that case the movie had a usefulness rivaling Kill Bill, since it was violence for the sake of violence

Braveheart was anti-english

The Scotts and my people, the Welsh have fougt the english for 100's of years. I know this is off topic, but is important to us non-English Brits

Do you even know what a "Passion" play is?

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=passion (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=passion)

Yeah its the moment from the Last Supper to the Crusifixtion

Doesn't matter though, you could still take the movie in such a way that it portrays the death of Christ as meaningful and with purpose. I honestly did not think this movie did that. It embraced the violence aspect far more than it imbraced the purpose of the violence which was the redemption of mankind

Just because one person doesn't find meaning from the film does not mean that others will not.  I don't believe the film was meant to encompass a message other than the suffering Jesus endured and to really bring that home.  It is not glorifying violence as you put it.  It is glorifying the one who endured it.  As to why he went through it all you have to do is read John 3:16 or watch any of the other movies made about Jesus.

if you really think there was no message in the brutality then you must have been taking a whiz when jesus said "forgive them father they know not what they do" when he was being nailed down.

I guess it just didn't do it for me

I've read the book quite a few times in my non-atheistic days, and I really felt the whole point of Jesus' suffering was rather lost in this movie

Oh I should probably clarify that from my perspective the point of Jesus is not that he died for our sin or any of that other stuff i consider vague and possibly fictious but the whole sermon on the mount and the philosophy of forgiveness for your enemy even in death

Well, even from that example, look at how hard it was for early Christians.  Look at the persecution they suffered under the Romans for 300 years.  I'd say his suffering set a very good example for them.  If you have any doubt of that, look at how wide spread Christianity is today.  Even if you don't believe Christ is the Son of God, look at what he endured, and yet he still could forgive those who did it to him.  Can you do that?  Can any of us?  Look at the troubles in your own life, then look at the suffering he endured.  It kind of makes you stop and think "hey, it's not really that bad.  If he could stick it out through all that, then I can get through this."  The world NEEDS that kind of example, and that kind of strength of character right now.

Can I do that, Forgive my enemies? Hell no, which is exactly why I have admiration for the man. Anyone who can do something I cannot gets my respect.

As for how Christianity stuck around all those years is a different issue, institutions perpetuate themselves. Also what happened in the 4th century BC with the standardization of the bible was largely part of that, and as far as I'm concerned removed quite a few good lessons, but lessons that challanged the established institutional norms

Institutions can only perpetuate themselves if they have one or more of the following:

1) Brute force/military might
2) Abundant wealth
3) Mass popularity
4) Extremely devoted followers

We're talking about early, very very very early Christianity, before the Church became all-powerful across Europe, and people were worshiping in secret in catacombs for fear of being tortured and killed by Roman soldiers.  1, 2, and 3 were out at the time.  That leaves option 4.  After seeing this film I do hope people can understand why.

http://www.hoosiergazette.com/News/news022.htm (http://www.hoosiergazette.com/News/news022.htm)

hehe....  :P

"Don't tempt me, Frodo!"

*grumbles*  :unsure:

Tekhead: it's fake

From their about us page
http://www.hoosiergazette.com/about.htm (http://www.hoosiergazette.com/about.htm)

AHAHAHA, DeSade Fanboys!

Pho - which version of the Bible do you read?

If by that you mean "which translation" typically the King James version, although I do have copies of the New American Bible as well as the NIV for comparative reference, as well as volume I of the Old Testament Pseudepigrapha.  I still need Volume II.

No, I meant which version.  I can find different versions of King James as well.
ISBN?

The copy I have here just states:

Authorized King James Version

Zondervan Publishing House
Grand Rapids, Michigan

Hmm, Grand Rapids, Michigan.  Now where have I heard that before? :D

i think a sweet baby was manucfactured there.......im such a nerd..