Wirehead Studios

Ok i've uploaded a beta of my newest remake "The pits" you can get it here: http://reboot.wireheadstudios.net/maps/bet...5/req2dm5b7.zip (http://reboot.wireheadstudios.net/maps/beta/req2dm5/req2dm5b7.zip)

It's pretty much finished tho the lasers will be removed eventually and i will work some more on detailing and texturing but i thought this map is ready for some public testing!

So i really want you ppls to play around in this lvl, is the item layout ok? any bugs? suggestions? gameplay? anything you think whould be usefull...post it here!

Pho i whould be happy if you could put this map on the beta server :)

Ok and last.. have fun! :)

Well I played through it Reb, and it seems pretty solid.  I have a vague memory of this map so I couldn't really judge on how true it is to the original, but recalling my reading through past threads, I'm fairly confident it is.  I noticed a few things texture-wise and geometry-wise.  I apologize in advance if these are things you're already aware of or something that can't be avoided in Q3.  I've never really tried analyzing a Q3 map before so I know next to nothing about engine constraints and whatnot.

In the area with the pillar with the rocket launcher on top, two sections of the pillar have visible seams.
http://members.cox.net/kain-xavier/Generat...ts/shot0005.jpg (http://members.cox.net/kain-xavier/Generations/reQ2DM5b7%20Shots/shot0005.jpg)
http://members.cox.net/kain-xavier/Generat...ts/shot0009.jpg (http://members.cox.net/kain-xavier/Generations/reQ2DM5b7%20Shots/shot0009.jpg)

Under the staircase with the yellow armor, the grating texture is partially visible.
http://members.cox.net/kain-xavier/Generat...ts/shot0010.jpg (http://members.cox.net/kain-xavier/Generations/reQ2DM5b7%20Shots/shot0010.jpg)

Underwater in the hallway that's near the room with the slime pit and the red armor,  one of the wall textures is misaligned with the adjacent wall.
http://members.cox.net/kain-xavier/Generat...ts/shot0011.jpg (http://members.cox.net/kain-xavier/Generations/reQ2DM5b7%20Shots/shot0011.jpg)

This is a minor criticism, but the outlines of these stairs just seem awfully bright to me.
http://members.cox.net/kain-xavier/Generat...ts/shot0002.jpg (http://members.cox.net/kain-xavier/Generations/reQ2DM5b7%20Shots/shot0002.jpg)

And that's all that I found.  Hope this helps you more than it frustrates you.

Detail, Detail man!
You use the tin cuff around the edges of most of the structures yet you avoid it in some places making those places look a tad out of place, so it might be a good idea to add that cuff around the rest of the areas, case in point, oh also there is an unaligned texture on that floor

Boot:  I'll see about getting it on the server soon.  I need to do some housekeeping there and clean up some other beta maps that should not be in the rotation.

Kain-xavier: no that was very helpfull! i've noticed that problem with the pillar and im about to re-make it..did a CSG subtract on that pillar but it sporked up everything...anyways tnx alot!

Devlar: yea that's true in some places i havent worked with the details enuff but i will continue to do so :) yupp that's a curve brush and at most of those "floor" curves i havent bother to align yet..i hate aligning curve brushes.... :/ i'll fix that soon! tnx!

Ok thanks pho take your time im in no hurry!

Anyways i won't have anytime for working on this map this week, might get some time over tomorrow..but i doubt it :( life keeps me pretty busy.

You don't have to align it, just click the patchmeshes Shift-S and hit Cap, assuming the brush parts of the floor are Axial, it'll automatically allign, although, for next time that you do this, you should make that entire section of flooring out of a 3x11 patch mesh, it saves polys

I know..but sometimes that just doesnt work you have to align it manually.

Reboot:  I have the map available on the beta test server now.  It is not in the rotation, but you can set it manually.

Aight tnx alot pho!

Boot:  I've found where the mover code's damage functions are supposed to be.  The reason movers don't hurt (except func_bobbing, which is instagib) is that Id forgot to code the function in!  That's been corrected, so whatever damage value a mapper accords to a blocked mover will now be inflicted.  I also told it to ignore gibbed bodies, which were causing the rotating drum on the test map to hitch since the corpse entity is actually still there until it sinks, just invisible.

I've also found where the rotation is making the view all jittery.  It's a viewangle update and it's not interpolating for some reason.  I'll see if I can clean that up.  Movers still "jitter" visually when they try to squish something too.  I may have to code a position test for that to keep it from happening.  Con also brought up the fact that grenades float in the air when stopped on a mover, letting movers go out from under them.  Grapple points don't tag along either.  There was a workaround coded for TA prox mines, so I'll see how they behave in TA and maybe "borrow" that function to get grenades to stick to crates, etc.  All of this is bad coding on Id's part, unfortunately, so I'll have to tinker with it a bit to get it working right.

that's cool pho! yea always thought ID "cheated" when they did q3.. Anyways if ya need something tested just yell at me! :)

This unfortunately is going to take some time.  I got the viewangles to interpolate on func_rotating with a rather clever hack, but as soon as I load it up on the beta test server and connect remotely it's back to twitching again.  I'm not usually one to criticize people who know a lot more about something than I do, but Id REALLY did a crappy job with movers.  It looks like it was never finished in order to rush the game out the door, and they never bothered to go back and fix it in a point release.  Q2 didn't have these problems, so how/why they broke this for Q3 is beyond me.  If I can't correct this server-client disparity I may have to completely gut the mover code and try to take what was done in Q2 and adapt it.  I don't look forward to that sort of thing, and there's still no guarantee it will fix the prediction problems.  

The good news is that my little hack job DOES work fine on a local game, so it may just be a client-side prediction issue with position updates since there's a line in CG_AdjustPositionForMover that says quite plainly "// FIXME: origin change when on a rotating object".  I might be able to get away with borrowing some code from the server-side and replicating that math on the client.

:) well pho id say that some nice progress there! yea the movers has been a pain for us mapper, and why ID did what they did... guess they are just sloppy :/ take your time pho! there's no rush :)

Nosing around again with the dreaded mover code...  I found out a few points about mover behavior in Q3 and why it's acting different from Q2.  First, the good news.  func_rotating won't be a problem with the viewangle jitters anymore.  I compared Q2 to Q3, and Q2 did NOT update your yaw angle.  You'd sit on the platform and rotate around, but your view did not turn with the rotation.  Simple fix for Q3, I remarked out one line of code.  The alternative - getting the rotation to work properly - is quite impossible.  For some reason prediction will ONLY function if the client's groundEntityNum is set to the mover.  It doesn't seem to care what entitynum you throw into the prediction function, even if it's the same as what is actually pushing you - the grundEntityNum MUST be set to the mover's entityNum or it WILL NOT WORK.  This is a serious problem because if you're pushed by a mover as opposed to riding on top of it your groundEntityNum is the floor, and if you jump it's Worldspawn.  I forced the code to set the groundEntityNum to the pusher and reset if you are no longer being pushed, however this only works for simple binary movers.  A func_rotating will keep the groundEntityNum set once you touch it even though the code says not to do that.  You step away from the rotating device and you orbit the thing until you clip a wall.  Very evil stuff there.

As a result I'm all for going with the old Q2 style, and that's old-school anyway.  The only catch is prediction is still a little bit choppy on top of a func_rotating and if being pushed by any mover.  Q2 interpolated the movement between the states, Q3 does not and cannot.  What this means is if you do a cg_thirdperson 1 while standing on top of a func_rotating you'll see your player model jitter all over, and the same if being pushed by a box or the like.  You'll ONLY see this for your own player.  Other clients are server-based entities and render just fine.  Visually everything is tolerable from first-person, no problems there.  The interesting thing I found out is the mover prediction code has a "fixme" statement all the way back in the Q2 code for func_rotation not properly prediction your origin while riding it.  Funny that.

That leaves only three areas I need to concentrate on:

1)  Projectile-mover interaction (grenades on top of crates, etc)
2)  Visual jitter on a blocked mover
3)  Non-player entities blocking movers (dropped weapons, etc)

Id was kind enough to include prox-mine behavior for movers so I think I can cannibalize that code for handling grenades and the like to get them to ride movers around.  This will also let me fix that grapple bug, I hope.  For number 2 on the list I think I can code a virtual test function that doesn't have to update the actual mover position and reel it back again if blocked.  The third one I just need to code a non-damaging explosion call and turn anything that's not a player or corpse that would block a mover into the explosion ala Q2.

That's the status on the movers so far.  I'll update you with more info as I make progress in this area.

Well that's some nice progress there pho! im sure you'll solve this! :) man didnt know ID wrote that crappy code...or are they just lazy?
Anyways tnx man for looking into this! the pits whouldnt be the same without the func_rotating...

New beta of the pits released: http://hem.passagen.se/macleod2/quake3/bet...5/req2dm5b9.htm (http://hem.passagen.se/macleod2/quake3/beta/req2dm5/req2dm5b9.htm)

it's pretty much complete except the sky and the spinning column is to short.
I really need u ppls to run around this lvl and find anything that's wrong, also i whould like to test this online.

Looking good, boots! I said it before, and I'll say it again: Great work!
I especially like the pipes (although I'll never like shiny stuff in Quake 2 maps, so I like the rusty ones best) great brushwork. The whole maps atmosphere and lighting feels lots like the original, which is good.

Now, I wouldn't be the Q2-freak you all know, if I wouldn't bring up a few points of critique.
As usual, I'll add pretty screenshots for your viewing pleasure through all this.

Fun things first:

1.
(http://www.planetquake.com/tabun/tmp/req2dm5_1.jpg)

Now, I don't have any problem with being able to actually get up there - it's fun and allows for players to surprise people. I always hate it if maps disallow you to jump to weird spots with dumb clip brushes. Creative play must always be rewarded.
However, being able to walk through a pane of glass is somewhat odd. Perhaps a clip brush to prevent the latter would help ;]

2.
(http://www.planetquake.com/tabun/tmp/req2dm5_2.jpg)

I'm sure you made the platform grated (and thus transparant) on purpose. I don't really mind it myself, since it does take away a bit of the surprise when someone's trying to camp it and force the elevator back up by sitting underneath. Some people might not like it for that, though. Small point, and not really high on my own list, even though I'm not a fan of grates - they look too thin in quake3, unless they're made with brushes.


3.
(http://www.planetquake.com/tabun/tmp/req2dm5_3.jpg)

Well, this is a bigger layout issue I (still) have. I really don't think people should be able to directly hit (rail anyone?) people coming up on the platform, from the hallway that it's now facing. What should be more easily possible, is grenade-lobbing into the elevator shaft from the top. I remember many Quake2 games where the combination of these strategy-affecting aspects played a significant part in the game. It's been in there since the first version you released, and I believe I've bitched about it since the first time I saw it, without response regarding it, so I guess you really prefer it this way yourself.  I just wanted to stress it one last time :]

4.
(http://www.planetquake.com/tabun/tmp/req2dm5_4.jpg)

Aesthetics shot. I'm personally not a fan of the blocks/edges on the floor. A continuous slab on the floor would look better to me. It's just kind of odd, and there's no logical floortile pattern to em either, but I don't think that would make it look right, anyway. Just my 2cts about that.

5.
(http://www.planetquake.com/tabun/tmp/req2dm5_5.jpg)

And one last minor gameplay issue I have in the lower GL section of the map: The grates in the floor look very nice. It would be less annoying to strut around in that general area, if you wouldn't step 'into' them, and the grates were clipped. The slight dip in height doesn't seem to serve any purpose, other than making the GL less effective in that area, which sounds like another unwanted side-effect to me.


Keep going at it, and soon we shall have the entire q2dm set :]

The floor plates definitely need clip brushes if you want the raised gridwork to not interfere with effective grenade useage.  That's a "map killer" for me right there.  Personally I like the see-through water better than Q2's old way of handling water, but having the water see-through makes it pretty easy to avoid grenades as it is without them getting stuck in the corners.

The underground area near the megahealth... where did the curve come from, and why is the lift up to the area near the ladder in the wrong place?  For a "remix" this would be alright, but for a remake map this throws the map balance off and disorients players who are familiar with the original map's layout.  The curve seems to have ties to some geometric layout changes on the upper level.  Most die-hard Q2 fans will look at this as a "hacked-in" section.

For the func_rotating, three things come to mind.  First, the central support pillar for the walkway should not rotate under the water.  Second, probably the most minor, the pie-slice seems to clip a bit too far away from the wall edges near the railgun and quad.  In the Q2 version you could get squished there pretty easily, part of the danger of going for those cubbies.  The last part is the damage value.  It's doing default damage.  The damage key needs to be set to "instagib" strength.  I'd recommend 10000 (default "assured kill" value).  (Note:  For other people who have downloaded the beta map the damage function does not work under .99d)

My only other concern is the scale feels a bit big compared to the original.  This is probably the biggest "default gripe" I have for any remake maps we've seen so far.  It's not horrible like our current Q1DM6 remake, but it feels like it could be sized down just a wee bit.  The tight "nowhere to move" corridors were a big part of what gave Q2DM5 it's feel.

Reboot, that map is looking awesome! Can't wait for final version. Keep up the good work!! ^_^

I know this isn't the right place to say this but, I can't load the map. It just doesn't appear on the map list when i try to start a server. The only extra maps that i can play with are from the map packs. I can't play TDM or CTF too because it gives me an hunk_alloc error! Please help me!

In the console.

Thanks Tabun. :D

Wow ok lots of feedback there! :) tnx all!

Tabun:
1. lol nah going thru glass is a bit weird..Ok seems like that brush is broken.. i'll fix that!

2. Ok i think it looks cool with the grate but i get your point..i'll have a look at it!

3. Well the reason the elevator is there is because during early layout i did a mistake when i created the sewers.. if this is a major issue i'll go ahead and try to redo the underwater section this will be alot of work but i guess it's worht it.

4.hmm yea you could be right..once again i'll take a look at it :)

5. Ok i'll place both a player clip and a weapon clip over those grates.

Phoenix: regarding the lift and the clips see my reply to tabun.

Oh i thougt it rotated underwater my bad! easy fix tho :) yea i know it's a bit "short" but i have fixed that today..now you get squished the way you did in q2 :)

regarding size it really shouldnt be bigger than the original i have done several checks that the size is almost like the original, however to get it 100% right is almost impossible but i'll check it again, i can do minor changes to the size however if something whould be really wrong i have to create the map from scratch again, which whould delay this map several months.

Anyways thanks alot for the feedback!!!!! it really helps! :)

it's a shame to lose that window spot. But, an error is an error, and as all the rest of the error, it must becorrected!

Hehe, giving feedback is no trouble - the cool part is where you listen to it, which is why I thank you. ;]

About the underwater rotating bit: I knew this wasn't so in Quake2, and I did notice it, but I thought it was kind of nifty. Made it look more.. purposeful I guess..
But I wouldn't mind seeing it go either.

lol well if i don't listen i don't see a purpose to release betas :) I do want this map to be as good as possible since i want ppls to have fun playing my maps..and also i whould see my mistakes every time i connect to a server.. and i don't want that..