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Title: Madrid Train Attacks (Weird stuff) Post by: Phoenix on 2004-03-13, 02:58 I'm sure everyone's heard about this by now, but did you know that the attacks were 911 days from the 9/11 attack on the WTC? Think that's creepy? There's more. Suppose a third attack dealing with this date pattern is in the works - something to do with 911 and the calendar. Let's look for a pattern here. Take 911 and lay it out 3 times
911911911 Add just the ones and you get 6. Add 9 and 11 three times over and you get 60. It gets even better. Turn it over and you get: 116116116 Remove the ones. 666 Revelation 16:18: - Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. Coincidence? I'll let you be the judge. Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: Hedhunta on 2004-03-13, 04:37 i think youre stretching with all the flipping and adding of the numbers and whatnot... but thats just my opinion.. if the end if nigh, ive enjoyed my life, albeit however short it may have been.. lucky you pho, you got nothing to worry about, being a firey bird, you can just goto another planet or somethin..
Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: Phoenix on 2004-03-13, 06:15 If only, my friend. If only...
Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: shambler on 2004-03-13, 11:37 The Universe is so big and lasts for such a long time we are all bound to be reborn in it somewhere. We are just patterns, and pattens will repeat is such a big place.
I don't know if I believe this myself, But I like it. Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: Devlar on 2004-03-13, 18:33 Has someone been reading the Bible Code?
As :offtopic as it is I'd like to point out one thing, if they can prove that this was Al-Queda, it is the end of support for the middle east in any regard by the Europeans and its likely your going to see mass deportations and ethnic violence in the region. This is not going to be pretty. The cynic in me does not like the fact that what does point to Al-Queda seems a bit too convenient and too simplistic. An open admission by a group that admits to everything, and a parked truck filled with explosives and some Koran writings. This can without a doubt though be considered a massive shift in the geopolitical orientation of the Europeans on America's "War on Terror" but I wouldn't forsee a massive affinty for Americans and their policies just yet. The European Union has a reputation in the American state department of being rather weak willed, this may be due to the fact that they don't agree with American policies (sorry no Europe isn't about to embrace Darth Bush) or just simply the fact that they cannot agree on some touchy domestic and foreign policy issues. That being said, an event such as this tends to polarize nations (in terms of nationalism, not in terms of touchy feely patriotism) and if the polarization is strong enough to see Arabs as the out and Europeans as the in, your going to have one hell of a reaction your hands. Since if anyone remembers the last nationalistic reaction in Europe, they'll remember what caused the Second World War. Lets all hope this was just ETA Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: dna on 2004-03-13, 21:28 Just like the nationalist reaction that took place in America?
Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: Woodsman on 2004-03-13, 21:34 no what caused the second world war in europe is that europe ignored a growing problem till it blew up in thier faces. The nationalistic reaction in germany is only how the problem started.
Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: Devlar on 2004-03-14, 00:23 Quote Just like the nationalist reaction that took place in America? What happened in America was a patriotic reaction, nationalism tends to be much much much worse. Lets face it, the ties that bind americas are much weaker than those that bind the french or the germans or (insert any self enclosed ethnic-state). You go into a store you buy the cheapest product, in some of these countries people will buy a more expensive product just because its made in their country, I've seen it, when I was in Germany a Japanese TV was half the price and most likely twice as good but the German ones were always boughts. As for Woodsman Nationalistic Germany and Nationalistic France over those fine two provinces. Nationalistic Britian over the Navy. Nationalistic Czechs, Nationalistic Poles, Nationalistic Austrians. Everyone started that war for Nationalism. Hitler would not have invaded Poland did he not think that Nationalism and Ethnic Superiority gave him the right to rule all of Europe Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: shambler on 2004-03-14, 00:40 Yes
Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: dna on 2004-03-14, 03:47 Quote from: Devlar Quote Just like the nationalist reaction that took place in America? What happened in America was a patriotic reaction, nationalism tends to be much much much worse. Lets face it, the ties that bind americas are much weaker than those that bind the french or the germans or (insert any self enclosed ethnic-state). You go into a store you buy the cheapest product, in some of these countries people will buy a more expensive product just because its made in their country, I've seen it, when I was in Germany a Japanese TV was half the price and most likely twice as good but the German ones were always boughts. As far as your example goes, there are plenty of people who still abide by the "Made in America" tag. You forget that with lots of the overseas brands there likely is no American alternative - take the aforementioned electronics. There are no American TVs to be had. Textiles - might be produced in other countries, but most of the profitts line our pockets (well, the CEOs pockets, but you get the drift). About the only line of products where that doesn't hold true is automobiles. Anyway, I realize that's a tangent, but I felt the need to say it. Nationalism, patriotism is pretty much the same thing, but it comes out in different ways in different cultures which I think is why you call the difference. Geez, I'm rambling. Next time I'm gonna make an outline before I post. :P Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: Devlar on 2004-03-14, 04:38 I agree that was a shitty example >_<
That being said I still think that the ties that bind people in a nationalistic country are greater than those that bind in a patriotic country Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: Phoenix on 2004-03-14, 07:34 Either way, it's still a bad development. If Al Qaida is indeed focusing attacks on Europe, which is a distinct possibility considering the fact that they don't seem to care much who they kill, then you can have one of two reactions. Europe will either sit on its laurels and do nothing about it, or else go the opposite way, and as Devlar suggests become polarized. If you want an example of how polarized Europeans can be just ask a German or Frenchman what they think of the USA right now. I don't think it's so clear cut though. The ETA could be the triggerpuller on this, but historically such terror groups usually work together. One supplies arms to the other behind the scenes, another recruits and launders money, etc. Al Qaida may just be shooting its mouth off to gain more supporters, but still - they'll gain more supporters. People know 9/11 was Al Qaida, so it's no stretch for them to think they could have organized this too and believe it.
Islamic extremism is a world-wide problem, and it's only going to get worse. The more that attacks like this go unchecked, the bolder they'll become. The only thing consistant and predictable about this is that more people will die in the future. That fact alone, even if any others are tossed aside, shows a devil behind this in one way or another. Maybe a lot of people don't like the US War on Terror because they don't like Dubbya or what have you. That's fine. I just wish the rest of the world would step up to the plate before it gets so bad that the only solution is all-out war in the middle east. I see it edging closer to that every year that goes by while everyone around the world has their face in the sand. Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: shambler on 2004-03-14, 10:26 Well said
Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: games keeper on 2004-03-14, 11:24 the problem that it ouldn't be ETA is that ETA always warns before they attack .
Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: shambler on 2004-03-14, 12:01 They may have decided on a change of plan. theya are after all terrorists, and don't have to follow rules.
Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: Devlar on 2004-03-14, 22:25 Not exact shambler, the problem is that a group like ETA has a much more focused goal than Al Queda. While Al Queda wants to remove American influence over the middle east, ETA simply wants self determination for the Basque people. One is a concrete goal the other one can simply be considered revenge, in that regard ETA becomes far more predictable, much like the IRA or any other successonist group (I'm not about to call them terrorists since in all honesty this is one of those prime examples of that say "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter"). I really doubt that ETA would cooperate with Al Queda, they might sell each other guns and drugs and exchange war stories but their methods are just too different, and really ETA has nothing to gain from the mass slaughter of people.
The problem isn't Islamic extremism it is extremism in general. The relentless support and inability to criticise and sanction one of the largest human rights abusers in the world, Israel, is a direct cause of the rise in Islamic extremism. That is largely the US's own fault, or more accurately the Christian fundamentalists who are hoping for rapture, and the Zionists who contribute to campaigns. This Huntingtonian attitude of the immediate impending War between the Christian world and the Muslim world holds very little weight. Mainly since the secularized western world (i.e. Not America) wants very little to do with the policies crafted by extremists on either side Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: Phoenix on 2004-03-14, 23:04 Devlar, I think you need to go back and re-read history a bit, specifically the part where Muslims invaded Europe in what was their mind a "Holy War" to "Convert the Infidels". This is not some new problem and as much as you want to lay blame on the US and Israel the Arabs started the war with Israel in 1948, and it's Arabs who have been killing people in the name of their god for the last 50+ years - not Christians. This has been going on for centuries. Muslims slaughter Christians all over Africa and it's not reported. The only people who seem to know about it ARE Christians because missionaries bring back the reports, and some missionaries don't come back at all. We had our Crusades and our Inquisition, and grew past it. Islam is going through it's Dark Ages right now, trying to live in the 14th century in the middle of the modern world, and trying to convert by doctrine or by force EVERYONE in the world to their religion.
I really wish you would quit America and Israel bashing and open your eyes to the larger problem here. The people blowing themselves up in the street and flying planes into buildings really don't care about highbrow socio-political theories. They're told to go out and kill as many people as they can, and they do it without question. I've known good Muslims who are peaceful and don't want to bother anyone. They often times are more devout and faithful than most would be Christians. I wish Christians would show that much devotion to Jesus as they show to Allah. The ones I'm talking about being a danger will not be happy until EVERYONE is speaking Arabic and bowing to Mecca 5 times a day. They kill OTHER MUSLIMS who don't agree with their extremist views, so having the idea that they'll somehow ignore anyone except US and Israeli citizens is either laughably optimistic or dangerously ignorant. This problem will NOT go away until either this extremism is stamped out, or they conquer the whole damned world. Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: Dicion on 2004-03-14, 23:19 Nostradamus Predicted that the next World War will be started by a man from the middle east who wears a blue turbin... If i remember correctly.... Not sure.. gotta look up the predictions again... but isnt that crazy that Nostradamus could predict all this from way back when?? If you look it up, most of his major predictions have come true in one way or another.... He is almost like our own Seldon (If you don't know who Seldon is.. leave this forum right now.... or Go read the Foundation Series)
Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: Devlar on 2004-03-15, 05:17 Considering I'm Polish and at last check it was the Poles that kicked the Muslims out of Europe it is something I'm familiar with. I'm also familiar with the Christian Crusades.
Since you don't care about the high-brow socio-political theories, I will ask you one lowbrow thing, why is it then that before the state of Israel was there was relative peace in that region? Why is it that Muslim and Jew were able to prior to the creation of that state get along relatively well? As far as I'm concerned it was the creation of that state that polarized Muslims into the looney state they are in now, and thus the US and Britain are responsible for the situation in which they find themselves. People who think that a war between Christians and Muslims is inevidible are simply creating it and if someone wants rapture then they might as well kill themselves now and save the rest of humanity the worries Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: Phoenix on 2004-03-15, 07:31 Well historically the Jews have been kicked around from place to place, and 6 million getting butchered by Hitler kind of comes to mind. The territory they were given had been under British control for some time, and unrest had already been brewing prior to the 1948 independence declaration. 100 jews were murdered in an Arab uprising, the Brits wanted to wash their hands of it, and ended up having both Jews AND Muslims at their throats - a problem they quickly wanted to get rid of. As a result, Palestine was divided into a Jewish area, and an Arab area, with Jerusalem sitting in the Arab region. The Jews did what any self-respecting people did and declared themselves a free nation once the territory was handed over to them and the British reliquished control. Within an hour, EVERY neighboring country declared war on them and invaded without provocation. The Jews fought back for a year using hodge-podge weapons left over from WWII and managed to push the invaders back at the cost of many lives. The Arabs picked that fight, and the Jews were vastly outnumbered and outgunned yet still managed to survive. If the Jews are guilty of any crime that led to this war, then existence itself has become criminal for that's all they wanted and all they were attacked for. Contrary to what you may think, the region was NOT peaceful when the declaration was made, it was already subject to civil unrest, murder, and assassination. The independence declaration basically just gave the Arabs and excuse to do what they wanted to - wipe out the Jews and wrest control of the Holy Land away from anyone non-Muslim. That is still the goal of a lot of Arab regimes. They just don't say it publicly as long as the US is buying their oil and pointing guns at them when they get nasty.
As for an inevitable war between Muslims and Christians, have you heard nothing I said? There are a lot of good peaceful Muslims in the world who want nothing of this war. It is the radicals who want war with EVERYONE. That includes non-religious secular types. They want YOU converted or dead too. As for a rapture, well, that's for God to decide now isn't it? Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: Devlar on 2004-03-15, 08:41 So pretty much you can't answer me why it was relatively peaceful prior the the declaration, you can only give me an account of something I already know and didn't ask for
Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: dev/null on 2004-03-15, 18:20 Quote from: Phoenix This is not some new problem and as much as you want to lay blame on the US and Israel the Arabs started the war with Israel in 1948, and it's Arabs who have been killing people in the name of their god for the last 50+ years - not Christians. You're absolutely right... What's 50+ years for Christians, who have been slaughtering people in the name of their god for several hundred years?Pertaining to this recent terrorist attack though; I'm glad it happened, as I'm sure the Spanish flag will make a far better line of merchadise than the American flag has. Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: dna on 2004-03-15, 18:25 dev/null - to be fair, Muslims have been killing other people for far longer than 50 years. Both of these religions have a fairly bloody history.
Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: dev/null on 2004-03-15, 18:32 Quote from: dna dev/null - to be fair, Muslims have been killing other people for far longer than 50 years. Both of these religions have a fairly bloody history. I didn't say that the Muslims did have a clean history... But at least they have kept their jihads fairly concentrated, as opposed to spreading like a plague to engulf many various cultures in the most genocidal manner possible. But, I'm probably just slightly biased... Having one's ancestors systematically murdered and their home stolen will do that, I guess...Take the aforementioned case of Adolph Hitler, for example. We cry because the Jews were treated badly, but Christopher Columbus single handedly slaughtered more Native Americans than Hitler did Jews, and yet he has a f*cking holiday. Why? It?s not as if he discovered America, as we all know it?s simply impossible to discover a location where scores of beings already dwell. Even if not for the original and rightful inhabitants, the Norse had already trotted all over North America, and possibly even the Egyptians. So now I ask you, why is this villainous man?s legacy celebrated on a yearly basis? Because he killed, and that is the practice of Christianity. Perhaps not the taught basis, but certainly what is practiced. Of course, it shouldn?t surprise me; why else would a cult decide to use an ancient Roman torture device as their holy symbol? Certainly not to spread good cheer... Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: Apocrypha on 2004-03-15, 18:33 Agreed Dev, I guess things like the Spanish Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, etc. don't count. Not only did they slaughter Muslims and Jews, but all other "backwards" pagans if they refused to convert and/or repent. But those are ancient history, nobody remembers those, you cover them for a few days in school and then move on, because unless it's an attack on Christian "normalcy", it doesn't get much more than a passing glance.
Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: dna on 2004-03-15, 18:48 Quote from: Apocrypha Agreed Dev, I guess things like the Spanish Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, etc. don't count. Not only did they slaughter Muslims and Jews, but all other "backwards" pagans if they refused to convert and/or repent. But those are ancient history, nobody remembers those, you cover them for a few days in school and then move on, because unless it's an attack on Christian "normalcy", it doesn't get much more than a passing glance. Inflamatory and off-topic. :PTitle: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: Phoenix on 2004-03-16, 00:32 Offtopic posts deleted.
Devlar: I already answered your question. The region was already unstable, and I stated why. If you can't accept the underlying reasons that's not my problem. Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: Devlar on 2004-03-16, 02:22 No you answered what happened during the creation, nothing about pre-1945 in that region. Why nothing about the relations between Jews and Arabs before 1945? because there isn't much to report
The People of Spain have spoken, and they side with "Old Europe" Spain threatens Iraq troop pull-out http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3512144.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3512144.stm) Bombs shake up war on terror http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3512894.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3512894.stm) Quote The Spanish socialist leader, Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, has already attacked the Americans and British. "Mr Blair and Mr Bush must do some reflection and self-criticism. You can't bomb a people, you can't organise a war with lies," he said. Oh happy day! Chaulk one up for sanity. Now, one down, two to go (and no I'm not counting small people like Kwaśniewski) Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: Woodsman on 2004-03-16, 05:25 Well Spain has proven terrorist tactics are infact effective. Other european nations can thank spain for coming terrorist attacks. Good job "old europe" you may as well just abandon democracy and adopt islamic talaban style goverments now and save time.
Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: Phoenix on 2004-03-16, 07:32 Yeah, cut and run, hoping the big bad terrorists will play nice now! You call that sanity? Watch how much more Spain will get kicked around in the coming years. That's ASKING for an asswhipping. Just watch.
Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: shambler on 2004-03-16, 12:24 There is no black. There is no white. Only infinite shades of gray.
600 people a year die from terroist attacks. How many die from Aids? Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: Woodsman on 2004-03-16, 13:28 no Shambler killing 200 innocent people and wounding 1400 is black. nothing grey about it.
If you cant see black and white you cant see grey either. Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: shambler on 2004-03-16, 14:21 I agree, but:
The difference between the best of us and the worst of us is merely the thickness of a butterfly?s wing. It is not as black as killing 200,000 as did our friend in Iraq Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: Woodsman on 2004-03-16, 14:27 more like 3,000,000 over the course of his 25 year reign. Or so the sanfrancisco chronicle would have me believe.
Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: Phoenix on 2004-03-16, 16:15 What separates the best of us from the worst of us is our actions and choices. The difference between an angry man and a murderer is that one chooses to kill, and the other chooses not to. The difference between a brave man and a coward is that one chooses to stand his ground, the other chooses to flee. Both are afraid, and both choose to act, but one chooses the harder path. The same with the angry man. It is harder to restrain yourself and walk away than to lash out in rage. We all know this. The difference between us "good guys" and the terrorists is the terrorists see no problem with killing to get their way. Murder is just a tool to reach their ends, and their ends are just as bad as their means.
Some here will certainly argue that the US is no better for invading Iraq. History will tell once the fog clears, which may not be for a decade or more. Still, terrorists kill indiscriminantly. The US military goes out of its way to not kill civilians. Whether war is justified or not, whether you like the politics behind wars or not, there is a clear difference in methodology for the guys pulling triggers here. For a soldier, following orders is a large part of that, but tell one to kill non-combatant civilians and see what kind of reaction you get. The terrorist will shoot first and not care about the consequences. Their conscience is twisted into believing that murder and murder-suicide leads straight to heaven. When your conscience is corrupt, there is no reasoning. The dividing line is erased, and only black is left, but made to look white. That is the lie that brings them low. Blowing up trains full of innocent people just going about their business or crashing airliners into skyscrapers full of people doing the same is murder, nothing more, nothing less, and has absolutely no justification. It is evil, it is black as the pit of hell, and those who perpetrate such acts will end up with no less than that. Personally I'm happy to see their journey expedited by anyone with the guts to stand up to these killers. It's a pity that so few in the world have any backbone left to actually do something about this problem, and that the spinless wimps who refuse to act can only heap criticism and condemnation on the few who are willing and able to actually make a difference. Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: Hedhunta on 2004-03-16, 17:06 anyone that might complain about us troops shooting lots of iraqis, ill quote a marine sargent after he was asked about a gunman
Quote 'He had a gun, and he was shooting at Marines. That's what I call a gunman.'" When asked what he knew about the gunman, he replied "I know 2 things about him. He was shooting at my Marines. And he is dead." so to sum it up. shoot at marines = dead Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: Woodsman on 2004-03-16, 17:28 shoot at spaniards = control thier ellections
Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: shambler on 2004-03-16, 18:29 Quote from: Hedhunta Quote 'He had a gun, and he was shooting at Marines. That's what I call a gunman.'" When asked what he knew about the gunman, he replied "I know 2 things about him. He was shooting at my Marines. And he is dead." All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. You may tell a good man, for he will overcome his fear to do the right thing. Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: scalliano on 2004-03-16, 19:32 Evil begets evil. What the so-called coalition is doing is serving only to exacerbate the situation. They are fighting a war against an invisible enemy and going for all the wrong targets (we all know about Rummy's plans for invading Iraq again stretching as far back as 1997, but that's off-topic so I won't continue), meanwhile the terrorists are successfully pulling off hit'n'run attacks like the one seen in Madrid last week. And now Spain is the latest in a long line of nations giving a knee-jerk reaction. All that does is play into the hands of the extremists too.
So Spain could be pulling their troops out of Iraq and there's still no sign of Osama. I make that: Al-Qaeda 1, Coalition 0. Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: Phoenix on 2004-03-17, 00:41 Oh, I don't know. Those training camps in Afghanistan are kind of gone, or has everyone forgotten about the little invasion and swift ass-kicking delivered there? Osama is in hiding, along with Omar, same as Saddam was. Besides, everyone was saying "Where is Saddam? You stupid Americans will never find him. Show us Saddam." Well, they caught Saddam and a LOT of people shut up, didn't they? Well, until they found something ELSE to bitch about. Sooner or later Osama will slip up and he'll be caught or killed too. It's only a matter of time. The Iraqis are in the process of drafting a constitution even in the midst of these terrorist attacks. Oh yeah, latest reports confirm it. They're shooting civilians openly now folks, I told you they would. Troops shoot back so they're going for the soft and easy targets, as expected. Real brave to do drive-by shootings on missionaries working on providing clean water for the people. Yeah, real patriots there. Even so, the Iraqis have water and power, more so than ever under Hussein unless you believe Dan Rather and the usual liberal lying press. Most of the deck of cards is captured or killed, and Lybia (Let's not forget Lybia) is just ITCHING to play it safe and give up their own WMD program. "Old Europe" is whining and boo-hooing, and you have Kim Jong Ill (sp?), France, and the Socialist political party in Spain endorsing John Kerry (Because he'd go softer on them than Bush). How's that for progress? Appeasment doesn't work, blowing up the bad guys does. If you think you can appease these people, go back to Chamberlain in Munich trying to appease Hitler. It obviously worked then.
I'd say the coalition is doing a pretty good job myself. To hell with the press and to hell with cowardice. It's better to stand and fight than to live in fear with a gun pointed at your head. (http://www.speakeasy.org/~ltphil/images/diesaddam.gif) Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: Devlar on 2004-03-17, 01:01 scalliano, the question of Iraq goes back to 1992 with a document written by Paul Wolfowitz and Karl Rove
You americans seem to think that everything revolves around you and this war on terror, thankfully, it doesn't To you it may seem Coalition - 0, Al Queda - 1 To the Spaniards its really Europe - 1 America - 0 America being the reason they got attacked in the first place The spanish leadership entered a war that 90% of the people opposed in that country and now they see exactly what everyone predicted would happen, happening. That they got attacked because of it. So it really doesn't take an electoral scientist to predict the outcome of the election, the right lost and the left was put in power. This does not mean that the Europeans feel any love for Al Queda, it just means that they will deal with them the way they want to deal with them, not in the reckless and damaging manner that the US would like. The US is forcing a war between Islam and itself, for whatever reasons, but the Spaniards are making the right decision doing what they are doing, by not being a part of this game of russian roulette. You want to consider it appeasement to do so, then fine, think that way, ultimately its not. For the secular world its about distancing itself from the Christian extremism in the US and the Islamic extremism in the arab world. Its like 3 guys fighting and one sitting it out because he doesn't like either of the other two. Quite frankly I applaud them since it is about time someone stood up to the Americans for creating a new and far more dangerous world order Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: Phoenix on 2004-03-17, 02:25 If you mean by running and hiding, then nice job of standing up! If America loses then GUESS WHO'S NEXT? Israel you say? Do you honestly think they'll stop there? Any school teacher will tell you that problems aren't solved by hiding in a corner and hoping they'll go away. As for this being "about the US", well, I thought you said this was all the fault of the USA and Israel? Either way, pretending this is a "US problem" and that Europe is somehow immune to it is ignorant at best and criminal at worst. The USA basically saved Europe in WWII from the Nazis AND defeated Japan. These ingrates wouldn't even BE over there to bitch about US policy if the US hadn't saved the day after they tried to "get along" with Hitler. Do I have to haul you off to an Al Qaida training camp to make it clear EXACTLY what these people do? I won't wish death on anyone over there in the wonderful land of ostriches, but remind me to say "I told you so" once you see more attacks on European soil. Sticking your head in the sand only hangs a "kick me!" sign on your ass, and that is ALL that Spain is doing right now. That's ASKING for another attack. Just because the US has the balls to stand and fight when someone bitchslaps them upside the head doesn't make the US wrong for doing so. I might also add that since 9/11 Dubbya and his "evil government" has kept the US from suffering ANY MORE terrorist attacks. NOT ONE has occured on US soil since 9/11. Wasn't that the point of the "War on Terror" in the first place? National defense - a right every country is entitled to. Don't bash the US for exercising it.
Personally I hope all the US haters keep whining about the US being strong and taking out the trash. I'd love to see what the world would look like if the US really DID decide to go unilateral and imperialist like everyone whines about and basically kicked the shit out of anyone and everyone they wanted to. I think a few ICBM's would make train attacks in Madrid look like a sunday squirrel hunt, don't you? Then you'd all have something worthwhile to complain about for a change. Be glad that the US doesn't behave like Al Qaida. You should remember which side can save and/or kick your collective asses at will but chooses not to instead of rooting for the side that wants to but doesn't (yet) have the means. Just think of what Al Qaida could do with a couple of Russian-made tactical nukes, and remember who's actually out there blowing holes in these thugs instead of trying to kiss their asses. Everyone bitches about the US being a big powerful country. If the US is gone one day you'll all be crying to mommy that nobody's around to save your sorry asses when the next big threat that you can't handle comes knocking on your door. Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: Devlar on 2004-03-17, 03:11 Who's next? of course its Israel
Do I think they'll stop there? no, but the only way Europe will have a concentrated defense is if they stick together and not get broken apart like a certain government would like it to America went into Europe during WWII not to save Europe but to protect itself from the expansion of the Soviets so please don't try and tell me they have anything to be thankful for. It was just another in a long series of examples of the US doing what's good only for the US, if a good consequence came of it then Whoopie, we can say we saved the world. I'm fairly certain that the US has already stuck a "kick me" sign on all of its allies by doing what its done, you have asked for the attack and attacks is exactly what you'll get. Somehow I don't hear about foiled bomb plots in countries that didn't support the Iraqi war or aren't supporters of Israel. No foiled bomb attacks in downtown Paris, or Berlin, or Ottowa. You brought this on yourself, since National Defence NEVER included actions outside of your boarders, let alone actions that led to as many human rights violations. If you want to act like assholes in your own country, fine, but keep it the hell in your own country The world should not have to suffer because a few ignorant, reckless and evil men think they can play power games with the world Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: Woodsman on 2004-03-17, 06:25 Please what a load of crap. If we went to europe in world war II to stop soviet exspansion we would have just helped the germans. General Patton who hated the Russians was pushing for that at the end of the war but he was ignored as a lunatic.
Your a fool if you really believe terrorists need a good reason to attack you. Terror attacks WILL continue to come to europe and your pathetic pandering to thier radical philosophys will not save you. So wave your free palestine banners and chant your war for oil slogans but when bombs go off in paris (and they will) it wont be because the french supported us in any war it will be because they tried to ban islamic head scarfs. You watch. Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: Devlar on 2004-03-17, 08:39 I'll believe it when I see it, and even if it happens, which I am almost certain it won't, I'd rather have Europe fight a threat on its own terms than on the terms of the Americans. Since ultimately, I refuse to let the last place that has any respect for human rights on this planet get rolled over by two teams of dictators.
No bombs have even been planted in countries that didn't support the war in Iraq, until that changes your point is mute Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: Woodsman on 2004-03-17, 09:03 Turkey openly refused to allow us to deploy troops from our bases thier for the war in iraq and it was still attacked. No matter what socialist spin you use on it at the end of the day your still western crusaders just like we are.
Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: Devlar on 2004-03-17, 09:48 Who got bombed in Turkey, a British consulate and two synagogues. I hate to break it to you but neither of those targets were Turkish. The Turkey attacks just validate what I've been saying all along
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3222608.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3222608.stm) I'd still rather be a western crusader who respects human rights than one who doesn't Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: Woodsman on 2004-03-17, 10:13 a turk in a synagogue is still a turk. Just because hes a jew dosent mean hes not turkish.
Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: Devlar on 2004-03-17, 11:23 Attacking a mosque in Turkey, that would be an attack on Turkey, an attack on foreigners in Turkey is an attack on the foreigners not on turkey
You may have no conception of nationalism since you are an American and America is a country of immegrants, but Al Queda and Turkey do. Civic nationalism isn't a form of identification there Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: Dicion on 2004-03-17, 12:21 Quote from: Devlar No foiled bomb attacks in downtown Paris, or Berlin, or Ottowa. http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/03/17...eats/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/03/17/france.threats/index.html)Quote The letter, from a previously unknown group calling itself the "Servants of Allah the Mighty and the Wise," said it planned to take action after Muslim girls were banned from wearing headscarves in schools. "We will plunge France into terror and remorse, and we will make blood run to your borders." Describing France as a country of "wine, pigs, loose morals and nudity," the group said it planned to use attack techniques imported from Gaza and Chechnya that "have never been used in the West until now." The letter, postmarked from Paris and sent to the chief editor of "Le Parisien," urged Muslims to stay out of crowded areas. "Europe is a new war zone for the Jihad," it says. "Know that our fight has only just begun." I'm sorry, but the only thing that spain did by pulling out after getting bombed, is made it look like "Hey.. We Bomb them.. they leave!! Lets bomb them all untill [they all leave | change their laws | believe in allah | we rule the world]" Quote The group claims its members are in France, "ready to give their lives" and inflict "terror into the heart of the French people." "France will not be secure in its own country nor at its interests abroad." The group said it was waiting for three signs before moving forward: the headscarf vote; a "clear and explicit" signal from Ayman al-Zawahiri, al Qaeda's second in command; and a third signal it cannot reveal. Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: shambler on 2004-03-17, 14:20 First They Came for the Jews
First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew. Then they came for the Communists and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist. Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me. Pastor Martin Niem?ller Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: scalliano on 2004-03-17, 14:57 I agree with Devlar, and if my history serves me correctly it was actually the Soviets who took the Reichstag at the end of WW2.
My original point was that if Spain had not joined the war on terror in the first place it would not be in the state it is now ie by joining it made itself a "legitimate target". However, now that it has been hit by a terrorist attack, if it does bail, it is asking for more trouble. Another example of the terrorists' strategy is made clear with the bomb that ripped up a tourist resort in Bali. Many of the victims were Australian - another country which supports the war on terror. Just watch the backlash when the US pulls out of Iraq at the end of June. Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: Phoenix on 2004-03-17, 16:06 Who said anything about the US pulling out? The idea is to give CONTROL of their own country back to the Iraqi people . As far as I can tell US forces will remain in Iraq so long as the administration and the Iraqi governing council feel they are necessary to help stabilize things, train the police and military, and keep hunting down the rebels.
Dicion: That proves exactly what I've been saying this whole time about the agenda of these terrorists - "Our way, or the grave." Thanks for the link. Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: Devlar on 2004-03-17, 16:08 Quote No foiled bomb attacks in downtown Paris, or Berlin, or Ottowa. They've also threatened Canada repeatedly, but there is a big big difference between this and I found 100 kilos of dynamite in a truck parked outside your embassyTitle: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: Phoenix on 2004-03-17, 16:10 Threats reveal intentions. Intentions lead to actions. Wait.
Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: Woodsman on 2004-03-17, 16:15 You only know the soviets took the Reichstag because it was at the end of call of duty. secondly if the germans had been able to focuse all thier resources on the eastern front the soviets would never have made it that far.
Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: Phoenix on 2004-03-17, 16:18 Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: Devlar on 2004-03-17, 16:33 Quote Threats reveal intentions. Intentions lead to actions As much as I agree with that statement you have to note that its a funnel, tons of people make threats, fewer have intentions and even fewer lead to any actions. I'm sure you can see that the Threats coming at the US, Britian and those who supported the war in Iraq were in greater quantity Quote Wait. "In a long enough time frame, everyone's survival rate drops to zero" -Narrator from Fight Club Title: Re: Madrid Train Attacks Post by: Dicion on 2004-03-19, 21:18 Another Example of Radical Islamic people doing their thing:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...hrain_attack_dc (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=583&e=1&u=/nm/20040319/od_nm/bahrain_attack_dc) |