Wirehead Studios

The Quake2 guy's rocket jumps are all jacked up and wrong! There were some sick trick jumps in q2dm1 that are completely impossible now. Also, you can't even make it from one side of q3dm17 to the other off a q2 rocket jump! The distance jumps q2ers can pull are fantastic, and it is at least as important to recreate as quake1 guy's crazy aerial control. The rocket is too slow and its splash radius is too small, but I wouldn't care about that if at least the rocket jumps worked right. Keep this in mind for a future version! Also, think about importing some cool grapples (red laser for q2 guy, voreballs for q1 guy and lightning for q3 guy) for teamplay games; get some Generations Threewave going (with KEYS instead of FLAGS!)

Also, don't even get me STARTED on the nail guns. Ranger has been reverted to the one-trick rocket pony he, well, always was in q1 i guess. The nails could at least be a little faster.

GGs all around

-UltraMagnus

What 'sick trick jumps', exactly?

Also take into account that the map isn't a mechanical conversion, it's a remake. This means that it's not 100% exactly the same.

So? This map wasn't in Q2. There's no way to compare the two.

The problem isn't with the rockets, it's with the scale of levels, the speeds of the other classes, and the view height of the player.

Strogg's rocket launcher is exactly the same speed it was in Q2, does exactly the same amount of damage, and has exactly the same splash radius.

If you would read this thread (http://forums.wireheadstudios.org/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=1214&s=) (or is it  this one? (http://forums.wireheadstudios.org/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=1214&s=)), you would know that class-based grapples are definately being considered, and while the models (voreball, etc) wont make it in, we are adjusting grapple SPEEDS based on class for the next release.

And what would be the point of keys instead of flags? It's capture the flag, not capture the key.

Once again, the nails are the same speed as they were in Q1. There's been ample discussion on the topic, however, and the nails are getting a silght boost in speed for 0.99e.

Also, rocketjumping is a very small part of gameplay, one that I have very little problem with. I have absolutely no issues with the Strogg class's rocketjumps. Their RL is very weak in comparison to the other classes (in speed, damage, and knockback), and as such gives you quite a bit less air than, say, the Slipgate RL. The Earth mortar launcher also has weak splash damage and knockback, and gives a poor RJump.

I would also suggest that you read a few things so that you would know what we're doing and what we've already done.

The 0.99d FAQ (http://forums.wireheadstudios.org/index.php?act=ST&f=25&t=344&s=)
What's coming up for 99e (http://forums.wireheadstudios.org/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=1214&s=)
The Feedback Thread (http://forums.wireheadstudios.org/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=1209&s=)

We appreciate the feedback, however poorly written and executed it is. If the only thing we have to worry about is a bad RJump for one of the five classes, then we must be doing something right.

Actually I hacked the Q2 rocket jump physics to give the Q2 guy a little EXTRA height over the default Q2 rocket knockback.  You can actually RJ a little higher in Generations than you can in Q2.  The only problem with RJ'ing as a Strogger is the handedness, something I'm planning a workaround for so that RJ's are centered while the rocket itself remains right-handed in its flight path.

Although nearly everyone that played seriously used hand 2, and would definately hate the lopsided RJ.. :]

Ahem.

I understand thoroughly that the q2dm1 is a remake. However, it is not so completely different from the original that none of the jumps should work. Quake 2 used to operate on a system where you could combine your jumps, and actually rocket jump off of a grenade to perform a "rocket-grenade jump". None of this stuff is (properly) retained in the mod. As far as the dm17 jump, that is a jump that the regular q3a player can accomplish with just the right amount of hopping and a well placed rocket. If you go back and play some Quake 2 you will realize that the physics of the game allow for a much greater amount of rocket player-propulsion than is implemented in the mod. That is to say, the Quake 2 guy should be able to "catch better air" than his Quake 3 contemporary.

Granted, dm17 is relatively huge on quake2 standards, as far as wide open spaces are concerned. This is the biggest issue with the rocket discrepancy, but whether or not the numbers are identical in the code, it doesn't "feel" the same even with all other factors being equal (q2 players only in a q2 remake or q2-themed map). If you want to get technical about it and deny that there is any possibility that there could ever be even a passing discrepancy between quake2 rockets and strogg q3g rockets, that's entirely up to you, but it isn't a delusion I'm afflicted with.

You'll have to forgive me for not having read every single thread ever in this forum before chancing a post. I hadn't mentioned anything of the sort between grapple speeds, merely the visuals for the interesting "retro" feel that the rest of the mod provides. If you had played Quake 1 CTF when it was first released, when it was only a server-side mod, the gold and silver keys were used instead of flags, and the grapple was a set of voreballs (or, sometimes, super nails) with an axe at the end of it. The purpose of bringing this back, again, would be to maintain that "retro" feel that will remind all the old Quake1 players what it used to be like to play the old-style CTF.

For the nailgun stuff, you can copy the values directly from the source but that doesn't necessarily net you an identical experience with a completely different game engine.

I'm surprised at your response on this subject, particularly your overall defensive and rather condescending nature. It is not your business, for example, to decide whether or not players should enjoy rocket jumps. If you are striving for consistency between the "generations" so far as to have very talented individuals spend a large quantity of time developing models and skins that are almost-but-not-enough-to-get-foxed perfect transitions from the original series, then I would only find it reasonable to assume that you would want to get the physics correct also. I am particularly puzzled by your reaction about rocket jumping since there has been so much work put into the slipgater's air control.

You can be as belligerent and condescending to me as you please, but that won't fix your messed up quake 2 rocket launcher. It is because you don't realize the use of rocket jumping that you don't see the discrepancy. Sure, quake 1 rockets featured a mean jump, but at the cost of a TON of life and armor. Quake 2 featured a similarly (and, dare I say, even more) spectacular jump, but with a much smaller pain cost.

If you want to call it hopeless minutiae that isn't worthy of your attention, then fine. However, don't pretend that the good ol' quake 2 players (particularly the old rocket arena 2 players, the category I belong to) are going to be able to play their strogg troopers like they would have expected to. I sure couldn't.

-UltraMagnus

P.S. - I hope this is now structured enough for you to properly read. I wasn't aware I was being graded on my eloquence, or lack thereof.  :zzz:

Phoenix-

Thanks for a genuine, non-flammable reply. I used the center hand; I forget which number that was.

-UltraMagnus

center = 2 :]

Edit
And thanks for taking an interest. We do what we can ;]

Thanks; I'd guessed at it when you mentioned that the "serious players" used that hand, because I'd been told to get better at q2 at that setting.

Fantastic work from you and Phoenix; I've just been through the 99e thread.

-UltraMagnus

Well let's see, that's a rather long post there, and after having read it I've seen the light.  I'm glad you have so much faith in my coding abilities when I don't know one game engine from another.  You know what, you're absolutely right, and I'm ashamed I even bothered to look at the Doom, Quake 1, and Quake 2 source codes.  I'm sorry that all the years of Rocket Arena and Quake 2 deathmatch that I've played were completely wasted.  I'm sorry that I've labored since the year 2000 on this mod and slaved away completely in vain.  I'm sorry that we didn't code things completely the way you feel they should be in the game, so I tell you what I'll do.  I'll let you recode the entire modification completely from scratch.  This way we can get past our obvious incompetence and let you code the mod as it should be properly written.  I'll be looking forward to the new and properly written Quake 2 gameplay mode!

I was being a tad condecending, true, but that was mostly because the post sounded like it was written by a 14-year old Ccounter-Strike player, a type we've more than had our fill of before. :) The only people more certain to set our teeth on edge are ones who come in arguing for the 'pro gamer' type of 1on1 gameplay.

It still doesn't change my view on the matter, however. I played Quake2 for years. I played Q2 CTF, and a TON of rocket arena. I was, and still am, the best rocket-jumper in my clan, a distinction that I've carried over to Generations.

My biggest problem is the lack of consistency in your post. You speak of specific jumps, and yet refuse to tell which ones. You now speak of knowing that the maps are different in proportions, and yet in another post you were unaware of the berserker pack for Doom.

How am I supposed to know what you know and what you don't? If I assume you know nothing, I can cover all the bases and leave nothing out. It's nothing personal, it's just the easiest way to make sure nothing is left out.

The grenade-rocketjump is very much possible in Gen, and I've been able to get from the ground on our Edge remake up to the grenade launcher doing so. I'd have to say that's ample height, personally.

Tell me where you want me to RJ to with Strogg, and I'll do it just for you... I don't know what you're talking about with this q3dm17 jump, considering q3dm17 didn't exist in Q2 and shouldn't have any history with Strogg jumping =]

Also, I don't expect you to read every single thread. Just the ones at the top like the feedback thread and the what's coming up for 99e thread.

Here, I recorded a demo of myself doing several of my favorite q2dm1 trickjumps, including central floor to grenade launcher, SSG area to yellow armor, upper rocket launcher to opposite ledge, and stairway to upper RL.

Tekhead was also almost able to grenade-rocket jump to the Quad on q3dm17, I hope he'll post his own demo soon.

Edit: I did use godmode on this, just so I wouldn't have to gather health/armor to help keep the file smal. Godmode has no effect on knockback. All of these jumps are possible without using the cheats. :)

I did make it to the Quad.  I've also shown how high you can get on Gen-q2dm1.  Here's two demos of my own:

http://www.planetquake.com/wirehead/phoeni...tjump_demos.zip (http://www.planetquake.com/wirehead/phoenix/rocketjump_demos.zip)

I'm not a programer,skinner or anything like that but have one thing to say:BETA.These guys have been working hard and so far come up with an awesome mod for q3.-which in my opinion was lacking severely.Nobodies perfect man.Give them a break :rolleyes: Granted there might be a few things off key but hell,just over look it and have fun.They're aware of these things and will try to fix it eventually.All I'm saying is give them a bit of credit,bringing ALL of these great games together takes quite abit of talent.                                                                                                                                                                               P.S.-Keep up the good work guys :thumb:

death stalker summed it up fairly well in his usual "eloquent" way ;)

Phoenix, I'm really getting sick and tired of your attitude towards the people who play this mod.

Time and time again, someone downloads this mod, and they expect it to conform perfectly to their preconceptions of how games should work, not how the actual source codes say they work. Time and time again, you refuse to constantly change the generations source code to meet the infinitely varied opinions of those who play the mod. When are you going to realize that it is your responsibility, nay, DUTY, to capitulate to each and every demand made by random people who have only been playing the mod for a handful of days, if not hours?

Everytime you hide behind your "four years of work" and "dedication to being accurate," you only harm people like UltraMagnus, and Generations' chances of appealing to irrational blowhards.

When will you ever stop driving away 90% of the internet?

hahhaahah

That's great. I love you oobey!

have my babies

*hangs head in shame* :sob:

Bad phoenix!

/me spanks you :idiot:

thats right pho you should submit to the crazed requests of every loon that comes in here! now hurry up with that nude code!!

Can I throw my two cents in this?

I actually have Q3DM17 created for Quake2.  It's called "The Longest Three Feet."  Here's a screenshot.



Now, to me, that railgun platform looks a little close, but no matter, we'll try it anyway.  It's probably close because Q2 has to use wind tunnels for jumppads.

Now, I played Q2 deathmatch through all of college.  If my ability to perform grenade-BFG jumps does not cut it, then I'm not sure what will.

In Quake2, in The Longest Three Feet, a rocketjump across the void, even with the rocket fired at an angle, consistently falls (you guessed it) about three feet short.

I believe he was talking about going from one RL spawn to the other.

Honestly, I can rocketjump like mad as the Strogger. Not as good as Skippy of course, but you can get considerable air-time.

O.o that MAP is all jacked up!

It's not really a bad map, but the scale is all wrong :b

Perhaps we've played enough "flame the n00b" for one thread?

Speaking of Q2, whatever happened to Lee'mon's Grunt skins?

Oh come on, there's nothing like a little flamefest  for attracting new fans to the mod :P

and here I was thinking lee finally finished those q2 remake skins  :(

Say what you like, this is one way to keep the boards active :]

I am not entirely sure how useful this would be, but there has been an on-going source port of Q2 that enables it to load Q3 data, including maps.  It is called the QFusion engine.  (See here:  http://hkitchen.quakesrc.org/ (http://hkitchen.quakesrc.org/) )  I am not aware of any changes to the gameplay physics, but I have not played the most recent version nor did I check it out in depth when I did play.  I just figured I would post it here for those interested. :)

I thought lee made somekind of post where he would say that he finished those q2 skins , thats all ,

now about all the classes ,
there all jacked up.

reason:
nobody can remake the classes like they where in there original game .
the reason is we cant port things over .
hell , even a mod that updates your graphics like tenabrea and zdoom make it so that it feels diffirent to do a jump anf that you miss .


the only thing we CAN do is make it as close as possible and balance things out .


let me put it diffirent :
if we would have it true to the original then .
-doom would no longer jump
-doom would no longer be able to duck .
-doom his screen would go completely red when you catch a rocket with your theeth
-doom his shotgun would do random damage up to 300
-the boomstick his knockback would be extremely high like in 99a ( this wouldn't be so bad I think ) :evil:
- forget about drowning in water because doom walks on water
-quake1 wouldnt be able to duck anymore .
-quake1 would get 150 or was it 200 armor points for red armor .
-strogg would get that white screeen when he gets hit and that sporking irritating scream when he falls into lava .


and so on .

I know Lee'Mon posted pictures of those Q2 skins in a thread like a year ago some time, and they looked done. Certainly it didn't seem like they would take another year to finish. It's like he just forgot about them or something.

Actually, it might be kinda cool if Doom's jump was limited to reflect the kind of limitations present in Doom 1. ...Like if he couldn't jump very high or had even crappier air control or something... I know slipgate is supposed to be able reach high speeds through skilled circle jumping or whatever, but Doom seems to be able to go much faster just by brute bunny hopping.

You could also try limiting other retroactive features like crouching, but I think in the case of crouching, no one crouches anyway, so it wouldn't have a big effect and it would make crouching even more useless. You could try limiting Doom's up and down aiming too, but that would just be lame. And of course we don't even want to think about up and down auto-aiming.

We tried adding a jump limitation to the Doom class for .99b, and it went horribly.  People began missing important jumps and ending up where they didn't want to be, usually fog or void.  When looking at a limitation for a class, the following questions have to be asked:

1)  Does this somehow help the nostalgia factor?
2)  Is this REALLY NECESSARY to do?
3)  Is this going to seriously annoy the players?

I don't like adding handicaps unless there's a serious concern.  All of the gameplay is taking place within the Quake 3 universe, so limiting one class's ability to perform the same feat that every other class can do without difficulty is generally a no-no.  It's an incentive to NOT play that class.  Some limitations we do have in place because they enhance the diversity between classes but there's always something to offset that limitation.  Speed is a good example of that.  Earth Soldiers may be slower than molases, but they can armor up like tanks and those gatling guns dish out damage on average faster than any other weapon, plus they're easy to get.  Some limitations are necessary to prevent "single class dominance".  An example is the reduced armor pickup values for Doom and Slipgate, along with the damage scaleback on Doom's combat shotgun and the general lack of random damage values.

The basic rule we follow is to get things as close as we can to the originals without breaking the game for everyone else.  If we can go dead-on to the original code we will.  If not, we'll do what we can to make the changes as unnoticeable as we can whenever possible so the "old-school feel" isn't lost in the translation.

Doom's top speed is q3 strafejumping if I remember right. Doom's NOT all that speedy top-end, he just gets there night-instantly.

I think this is a good idea.

The last thing I would want is Doom being able to wall-ride like in D1+2. Who needs "turbo" with that ability??

Then again .... :evil:

Actually I think wall riding would be cool if his jumping was inhibited simultaeously to make it balanced. It would be cool if each class had to rely more on their own intrinsic movement techniques. I was playing Q2 tonight and noticed ramp jumping gives you a BIG boost (maybe Gen has the feature but it hasn't been used much yet since there aren't a lot of ramps in the current maps, like there are in the Warehouse.) Also, perhaps it's just me, but it seemed like strafe-jumping accelerated to higher speeds than in Gen, but maybe it just seemed that way cause there were no Doomers and Slippys to chase after.  :)~ Oh yeah, also it seemed to take much longer to pull the pin on hand grenades.

You know what else would be cool? If this thread DIED ALREADY.

(and all the off-topic stuff were moved to a worthy thread)

Well, talking about strafe-jumping with Strogg isn't really off-topic.  The other stuff is so varied I'd have to make 10 different threads for it.

The original point of the whole thread has been defeated about 10+ posts ago   :rolleyes:

Btw, for fun's sake, I went and tested the theory that Strogg could not jump the q3dm17 gap.
It's nonsense. The first try (hence the demo name) that I recorded, was spot on. You can even get farther, if you execute it perfectly.

No bullshit -> here's the (99d) demo to prove it:

http://www.planetquake.com/tabun/tmp/q3dm17-1.zip (http://www.planetquake.com/tabun/tmp/q3dm17-1.zip)

Remember, it is not always the tool that is the cause of failure - sometimes it's the person using it :]

There's only one kind of 'sick trickjump' that isn't possible in Generations yet, and that's the so-called 'circle-jump'. But even that may still be in the works.