Wirehead Studios

Once again thanks Tabun for the textures, and reboot  for the great mapping tips, and the generations team for a great mod.  May download at:

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nova/2704/.../newlevels.html (http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nova/2704/newlevels.html)

click for screenshot (http://www.flu.stonks.com/stuff/hangar-pkasc.jpg)

Edit by Con: changed giant screenshot to a URL

Cool im gonna download this one rite now!

Cool map, but I think the powerups are over-stocked in the Q3Arena version. Do we really need megahealth, invulnerability, quad, regeneration, invisibility and bersker, the former 3 all in the same room with yellow armor and rocket launcher (and grappling hook)?

Otherwise it's a well constructed map. It does look just like a blend of Doom 1, D3, and Q3 all in one. The lava pump in the center is a bit unsettling as a big change from the original, but it looks cool. Perhaps since you allready have multiple ways to reach the scafolding at the top, you could remove the staircase that's blocking the addition of the window into the tech room? Just an idea.

Thanks for your suggestions,  unfortunately this map  was already sent to planetquake and all sometime ago. BTW, the staircase is not really blocking the window, I just couldnt open the window because since it has so many shader textures and small brushes, and it is BIG, by opening the window it caused MAJOR FPS drops, many times what you see is a compromise between what a mapper wanna do and what Q3 whats to have done :-)

I did post that I tend to overstock the maps, I just really never played generations much before and haven't quite gotten the hang of what the weapons do etc., however it is just right for pkarena which is what I usually play.  That's why I get the beta's out for a while. But do try it with real people, believe me, just because the powerups are there, don't mean you gonna get'em, God knos I've tried and failed many times, unless I grab the invulnerability first :-)

That's my ONLY problem with the map as is.  The invul needs to go, as does the quad (IMO). The invis is a great powerup for this map, and the regen works too.

I actually LIKE the inclusion of the hook. It's just...different.

The community demands, flu responds, vote for me in November :-]

Will post a beta in a few hours or tomorrow, the grapple is in the maps because it is also a pkarena map, and we need it :-)  I usually try to make it really hard to get for non-pk arena community so it doesn't get in the way, I mean who would rocketjump all the way there just to grab a hook? (we airfist jump in pkarena)

OK- Quad gone, replaced by Berserk  (in secret area), invulnerability gone, replaced by tele//LSOV, previous berserk gone (moved to where quad is)

http://www.flu.stonks.com/genhangar_beta.zip (http://www.flu.stonks.com/genhangar_beta.zip)

Remember you need the original map to play this beta, this is just the .bsp and .aas files in the pk3, just unzip to your baseq3 or gen folder and do /map genhangar_beta in console

The one word that comes to mind as I stumbled through this beta was "tacky".

Mismatched textures are all over the place, and are notable which games they are from. There's some walls that are definitely Quake3, others that are from a seperate Quake3 mod, Some Doom3-ish looking areas all clashing with the classic Doom feel that this level seems to be trying to recreate.

Look at this screenshot and tell me if you see anything Doomish in it:
(http://dl.ord.downloadhosting.com/download/tekhead/shot0014.jpg)

Granted, it looks neat - but that's not the point. That large decorative area has a strong Quake2 theme and should have no place in a Doom map.

Also, I could barely see a damn thing moving through the map. (http://dl.ord.downloadhosting.com/download/tekhead/shot0015.jpg)

I do not like this remix.

To Flu's defense, that was his POINT to create a recreation with a Doom 3 vibe. Which incidentally means "DARK".

Sorry TEK, I did mention it was more of a personal project to recreate Hangar in a DOOM3 style, which I kinda dropped too after all the textures whashed out in the dark, but the map was done and some people really liked it so I finished it..

If you wanna really recognized where some walls came from, I posted some DOOM3 pics that served as my inspiration in the middle of this thread
http://forums.wireheadstudios.org/index.ph...=ST&f=11&t=2061 (http://forums.wireheadstudios.org/index.php?act=ST&f=11&t=2061)
Besides if YOU can't see some players in a map, most of us agree it's a good thing :-)  We'll live longer.

I have no problem seeing things on this map. Stop pretending Q3 is D3, Tek, and up your brightness a bit. :P

I still can't get into the Quad-now-Berserk room, but that's not a big deal for me. I suck with Berserk, anyway.

The only thing I might ask for (and I never noticed it in the first place) is the removal of the hook. If we're playing DM and want the grapple, we can enable them through DMFLAGS.

Hmm, I agree with Tek here about the ..... strange feeling about the map.
It seems to be too much of a slurry of styles.

Plus your brushwork is awful, no offense meant. I can see unneeded but textured faces, and a couple of HoM bits through the map. Example, no clip outside the window near the RA and go right behind the wall.

Another area that befuddled me. If you noclip above the outside area with the lava pump you see a mass of brushes covered with shadered lights, situated behind one of the walls of the 'outside area'.
Take it out before I feel the urge to slowly kill you with a blunt instrument, or if your lucky... I'll end you quickly.
Heh jk  :thumb:

And you may want to make the 'secrets' a bit more obvious. Example, make shooting the lantern click... or a block move or something. And I still havent found a way of opening the doorway to the teleporter into the beserk room.

And the scale of the 'starting door' is a bit off. I didnt know Mr. DooM Marine was a midget.

EDIT: Just reread this and I dont mean to sound this harsh ;)... but its too late in the night to edit it. Bah

If I have the balls to  release a map, I also have them to take criticism no matter how harsh it is. I KNOW I'm a lousy brusher,  so I really couldn't argue with that, no one ever taught me and I HATE to RTFM.

I am sorry I don't understand what you mean tho, there is only one RA and all the windows are clipped, just double checked to see if I had a senior citizen moment, but no, they are clipped.

Uhmmmm,  quite frankly it didnt occurred to me to noclip on the outside or any other area,  but I will check it out, we don't need any extra shaders messisng  performance worser. What possessed you to no-clip outside the map? Just curious, I usually make maps for players that stay inside the map :=]  I really did not see any HOM anywhere in the map, there may be cause I caulk a lot too, and I may not have seen it.

And the secret, You must be a young one, probably did not play the original? In the original, as  you went through the room leading to the exit, the platform lowered, revealing a secret room, then as you went back the "tech" room you could hear a lift being lowered, that you had to run to catch and it would take you up to yet another secret. I made it exactly the same, going through the exit room will lower the lift, going into the "tech" room the door next to the invis opens for like 5 seconds, you gotta haul arse to the tele behind the lift and catch the door open.

Only way to learn is by getting your input guys, so if the level needs to be blasted, let it rip, I'll learn for the next..

EDIT :  As part of Quality Improvement and remedial action plan, Removed grapple, clipped outside area lower so that no one should get to the fence  up top, removed the offending shadered faces seen from outside the level  and caulked them  so that daedalus doesn't kill me slowly, and brighten up the area TEK HEAD mentioned so he don't have to use LoJack to fry my arse. :-)

Say, are those Doom plasma boxes next to the shoot-to-open door floating? Lower them a fraction of a unit or so.

Yes they are, thank you. An oversight resulting of a copy-paste item job, good eye! Fixed

Overall, I like the map.

But that doesn't mean it's flawless. I would really like to include this in a future mappack, but there's a few things that will have to be done for that to happen.

Textures: You need a consistent theme. The central room with the regen is perfect. The slime-pit room is great too. Make the whole map look like one or the other, but I prefer the first.

Item placement: This map may or may not be balanced for play in PKArena, but it's horrid for Gen. The invul in such a small map is a definate problem. Cut down to one major or two minor powerups. Haste + Regen is ok. The quad is ok. The invul is iffy. All of those is NUTS. The berserk I could honestly care less about. It typically doesn't have a huge impact on play the others do (although it does make a difference).

Balance: Gen is difficult to balance maps for. Read the 'mapping considerations' thread stickied here for details. Your maps (this goes for Grosse too), have an overabundance of rocket/grenade ammo. Do you really want a doomguy with his rapid-fire blimp-launcher running around with 50 ammo?

That's about it.

It's nice to see someone so receptive to criticism, but I think some people here are exagerating.

Tek- Who the hell said you couldn't combine themes for a map? Doom 1 and Doom 3 are essentially 2 different versions of the same game. Trying to meld their style is perfectly logical. Quake 3 is the game this mod if made for, so adapting some of it's style also seems logical. The satellite dish contraption does look Strogg-ish taken out of context, but where it is seen from the window, it still looks like Mars. Plus, you need to fix your gamma settings, cause I can see fine throughout the map.

Daedalus- Who the hell asked you to view the level in no-clip? That's like sneaking back stage at a theater performance and complaining that the sets weren't painted on the back. Besides, even from spectator mode, most FPS maps have some noticeable flaws. They are designed for the people actualling PLAYING IN THEM.

I still think the only major problem is the powerup distrobution. I haven't played the new 'post final' beta, but I will try it and and get back to you.


EDIT: ok I played the beta now for my comments:

Con's right, in a map like this 1 or 2 powerups is more than enough. However, what's even more important is placement. In general, you should only have 1 or 2 major items in any one area. Right now, in your map you have the RL, the chaingun,  yellow armor, and 3 powerups in the same area. This is bad, because there is no reason to go to any room other than the RL area. Even the placement of mega armor and rocket launcher together in the original map was questionable.

So first off, remove everything from the lava-pump area but the rocket launcher and perhaps one other item, which you must reach via the catwalk. Next we have to talk about the secret areas in the slime room. I think first opening the secret room, by walking near the exit, then opening the secret elevator by walking near the slime room entrance, is more than enough trouble for a powerup, especially given that  the main secret wall closes backup, instead of staying open for the rest of the match like in original Doom. Therefore I think the secret powerup should be placed in front of the exit of the secret passageway, instead of using the teleporter to get to it. The problem with the teleporter is it takes you back to the RL room, which again puts too many items in the same spot.

Next we have the tech room. The plasma gun was a good choice because in the original map, there was nothing there. However, I'm not sure we need another powerup in there too. At most a low level powerup like LSOV/PT or berserk. A better thing to put in the tech room would probably be extra health or ammo.

Exit area- the chaingun in here is fine. The chainsaw is a waste. However, I'm not sure you need a teleporter in the final room. You could put an auxilary item like armor or a low level powerup and it would still be worthwhile without making it too easy to get around the map. If you keep the teleporter perhaps make it one way or something.

About ammo and health: I can't keep track of all the ammo boxes, health packs, vials,  and armor shards, but you should keep an eye on those as well. They're placement is important and should not be used simply as filler. When the player gets low on health or ammo, he should have to think about specific points in the map to go to refill, not just rely on the fact that there's enough packs in the level that if he just runs down a random hallway he'll probably pass some on the way. For ammo, in a map like this, there should probably only be about 1-2 extra boxes for each weapon, and they should be spaced out on the map so they're not just sitting right next to the weapon they belong to. For example, on Q3DM1 the shotgun ammo is by the plasma gun, and the plasma ammo is near the rocket launcher. It''s not like Unreal Tournament where every weapon has 2 extra boxes right next to it. Also, for any of these things, space them out in the room so you have to go out of your way to get them.

My suggested layout-
courtyard/lavapump: rocket launcher over pool, yellow armor on cat walk
secret area 1: shotgun, ammo, small health
secret area 2: invisibilty or soulsphere
tech room: plasma gun, big health and ammo in various corners (probably SG shels)
exit area: chaingun, small health, possibly rocket box
exit switch: berserk pack, no teleporter
starter room: shotgun, chaingun mags
window/pedestal room: red armor, health, plasma or chaingun ammo.
passage from courtyard:  plasma and/or shotgun ammo, possibly small health

You could also try sneaking in some non-doom weapons for other classes. For example, you could put grenade ammo in the secret loft by the slime room so earth and strogg and throw handgrenades (grenade launcher is bad idea though since it would just make another rocket launcher for doom.) For the chaingun pickup, it could be a railgun/nailgun or a lightning/shaft depending on which you prefer,

Even though the loft in the courtyard may not be used for anything, you should probably take out the ladder so you have to either go all the way across the catwalk from the lava pump, or  rocket/ramp jump up the side.

Thanks for the post!  The more I play this mod lately, the more I understand it, and overstock is an understatement :-)
Gnam and Con, I really appreciate your ideas and gonna think hard about it as wel as wait for some more input.

Gnam a couple things, the small health and shards I place in a level mny times not for gaining much heatlh or anything, but an audio clue as to where a player may be. Many times I don't even pick those up so as to not give my location away :-)

The satelite dish out the window was just eye candy to give the impression of a Mars station, as I was trying to immitate DOOM3.

The textures used were meant to immitate some of the DOOM3 pics I posted on the other thread I mentioned, but I understand the importance of keeping a consistent theme, so lemme see what I can do to revise.

Thanks so much for the input guys.

Even shards and small health affect gameplay in Gen. Shards = 10 armor each for Earth, and Doom's health does not count down. Enough of either means that there's a tank walking around, of one class or another.

Gnam went into much more detail than I did, and he's pretty much spot-on.

Gnam, I'm sorry, but your analogy is entirely incorrect.
The whole point in noclipping was to see if there were any faces textured that arent needed. Turned out I was right in doing so as there was a whole roomful of useless brushes, textured entirely with shader lights. Removing those possibly could increase r_speeds.
And im sorry, but r_speeds AFFECT THE PEOPLE PLAYING IN THE MAP.
No need to fly off the handle at me.

Again, sorry I was so harsh with my crits Flu. Your not bad at brushwork per se, your actually quite handy with getting the scale and shape right. Just need to keep an eye on whats needed and whats not. Optimisation is a key part to a good map :)
Your doing good though, just a few bits you missed that I thought i'd point out.
I'll post a couple of screenshots of the HoM effects later on :) They are quite minimal, nothing to worry about until you start polishing.

Daedalus don't worry about it,  I think the map really improve with all the suggestions in the thread, removing those extra shader textures was a MUST, and I know I make a big brush mess sometimes, especially in this map. Grosse however, maybe cause is just a big box, is quite neat brushwork :-) I still havent picked up any HOM, maybe you are referring to sparkles? which are quite common to show in dark areas with curves where the caulk may show sometimes, those are real hard to get rid off.

I am making a LOT of changes on this map, Ill post a beta in a couple days, hopefully much more refined,  but  I do have one question, is it really necessary to remove the teles from exit to beginning of the map?, My thinking was that it improved gameflow cause otherwise you have TWO dead ends in the map, but if it's better for gen than I'll take'em off.

Daedelus is probably right about the performance. In one area near the tech room I was getting an FPS drop, and I'm on a AMD 3200+/GF 6800/gig RAM! BTW Deadalus sorry I came off kinda harsh.

WOW, you really checked this map out, apparently more than I did :-)

I'll be taking care of those, in the last shot, I'm not sure why the z-fighting, I don't think I had curve brushes there and if I do, more than likely is got caulked brushes behind. Maybe the duplicate brushes. Sometimes I think Bob's tool is god's answer to mappers and forget to check things, and the needless texture faces was an oversight, initially you had access to the outside terrace, before I put the window grates.

I'll sure check that out- THANKS!

You can only see the z-fighting if you turn gl extensions off... so its really a very very minor fault.

Oh, one thing I missed in my above post.
The curved window up in the secret area isnt clipped for weapons. They go straight through.

I have played close attention to what ConfusedUs, Daedalus and Gnam have said in their latest posts and made LOTS of weapon and item placement changes, as well as retexturing the map and fixing some minor bugs pointed out by Daedalus. It now plays totally different. I made it brighter too in the darkest areas. I did however leave the tele at the exit, till I get some more feedback, should it stay?, should I just leave the one by the RA to tele to the exit as a one-way tele or should I just remove the teles?. Remember the beta has just the bot file and .bsp, you need the Hangar map to play the beta.  

Now there are:
Weapons:  1RL, 2 shotguns, 1 lightning gun, and 1 plasma gun.
Items: 1 Bullet ammo, 2 lightning, 2 cells, 1 grnade ammo, 2 rocket ammo, 3 shells ammo.
Powwerups- 1 Berserk, 1 Invis, 1 Megaheatlh, 1 RA, 1YA, 1 Tele
Others: Not too many  Healths, 1 large health, a few armor shards (maybe 2-4 throughout the level)

http://www.flu.stonks.com/genhangar_beta3.zip (http://www.flu.stonks.com/genhangar_beta3.zip)

EDIT- For next beta I made the area by the shotgun in the barrels brighter and fix the one wrong texture on  very small brush out in courtyard.  GRRRRRRRR

yes

I'm confused, are we supposed to be playing the Gen version or the PK version? In both versions I am still seeing invulnerability, regen, and other stuff you said aren't in the map. The Gen version has a railgun still, and in the PK there's a grenade launcher.  Also, there's a huge machine in the starting room now in the Gen version. Is there a different version I'm supposed to be playing?

Now I am the one confused. You are supposed to be trying the beta I just posted, unzip to baseq3, bring down console and type /map genhangar_beta3. God tell me I don't have an evil twin messing up my maps, and I didn't drink yesterday I swear. Please let me know if that fixed it. When it's finally done I'll probably name it GenHangar or something so as to not get confused with the older versions roaming around.

There is no railgun or regen or nothing, just an invis powerup I think.

LOL! My mistake! I wasn't using the map command, so it was loading the old version.

Wow, much better. Against the Doom bot, its actually kinda fun even if he's pretty dumb. There might be a few small things to change  here and there, but I think the only way to find them would be by testing it with other players over time. It would be cool if someone could get this on a Gen server. Besides being a good way to figure out if there are any small things to change, it would be fun.  :thumb:

I actually like the teleporter in the exit now, I'm glad you kept it because it helps keep things from getting too bunched up around the RL.

The invisibility is pretty tough to get. Was that teleporter in the original map? I've tried to find it, but no matter how fast I run, I never see any teleporter up in that secret passage.

About the secret door to the court yard, if you're going to give it a normal door texture, maybe  you might as well make it auto open like a normal door; everyone knows it's there, so why make them shoot it? Otherwise I would go back to the wall texture and keep it a "secret".

I'm just nitpicking now though. I wanna play this thing with other people!

Thanks!

I may give more time to the teleporter (to invis) door, as it is right now you gotta open the lift FIRST thjen run to teck room and race like hell to catch it open, OR you may wait in there till some player passes the trigger, but I'll give it a couple more seconds.

The "secret" door to the courtyard kept the "health 1" parameter, which means needs to be shot at, because I forgot to remove it from the previous door :-)  

It may need some tewaking, but I think it'll be minor stuff now, I hope :-)

One thing to remember is that different classes run at different speeds in Gen.

So if you can BARELY make it as the q3 guy, Earth will never get there but doom could stop and eat a sandwich on the way. All classes should be able to reach the powerups.

A good example is the map 'deadmeat' in our mappack. You can BARELY get to the quad secret (which is a total bitch to find, btw) as Earth, but you can make it.