Wirehead Studios

After many hours of playtesting and my friend Mr.Corpse graciously playing it on his pk server for a few days, I decided that I have taken this puppy as far as I can. Download at my page:
D2GROSSE MAP (http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nova/2704/newlevels.html)

click here for screenshot (http://www.flu.stonks.com/stuff/d2g_1.jpg)

Edit by Con: Changed that giant table-stretching screenshot to a URL

Beats the poop out of my remix (which I yet again, never finished.... all hail my uber dedication)

That thing is LOADED with powerups....
You can get all 5 of them, RA, bfg and an MH if you time them right.
Crazy map!


Im eager to see how it plays

EDIT: Oh, in the beta thread you stated the Quad and Regen would not respawn together.
In my testing, each time I picked up both powerups, they respawned at roughly the same time.
And I _strongly_ suggest you increase BFG respawn time to at least a couple of minutes. Instant bfg respawn is a map breaker, unless you want everyone to whore it.
I'd love to see this in the normal server rotation at the next map pack... but I dont think it will be unless there are a few tweaks.

GRRRRRRRRR  Where were you when the beta was up for over a week?  :-)

You're right at the regen,  I switched places at the last minute with the haste and the haste got the different timing now, MY BAD! There are a lot of  powerups but it is a rather large map and I don't think it's gonna make or break the map unless someone who is really good and CAN, decides to hog'em.

About the BFG- I'm kinda new to this generations mod, I shoot that thing and seldom get a kill so it really didn't strike me funny. I don't know if the respawn can be changed, I know in other mods certain powerful weapons (such as the gravity well in pkarena) come with a built-in timing that mappers can't change, maybe someone can tell me if this is possible and necessary, remember this is heavily based on the real map, which did include a BFG right where this one is.

I'm willing to change things a bit if you guys like, most of the beta testing and feedback came from my pkarena buddies and it seems just fine for them, but because of the Wolfy theme I wanted it to work here too.  

I would even give the map to a gen arena map expert to fixit up or correct the item placement and such.

Just add a 'wait' keypair to the BFG entity with the number of seconds (might be milliseconds) you want it to respawn in. Can even set it to -1 if you dont want it to respawn again :)
I think it'd be quite necassary, players won't bother with the other weapons except perhaps the railgun or slippy rocks if the BFG is too accessible IMO.
But see what people think first :)

I love the map though, I tried 'teching' my version up too much and it just became unrecognisable.

I do suggest spreading the ammo around the level a tad more though. Having it all clustered near the PG area may lead to less flow. I'd love to see how it plays as is though, may lead to some very original game dynamics.

About the BFG: On Simply Dead, the BFG respawns every five seconds, just like the other weapons. It certainly gets whored, but I rarely see people complain about it too much.

Daedalus is your version out somewhere?  a beta?  I made this one cause I thought there was no other version of a wolf map anywhere.

It is true that a lot of ammo is concentrated around the plasma gun (just like in the original) but remember there are also three teleports with three different destinations very near. Like I said, I am willing to change whatever, but play testing it with friends, seems different than what one might expect. You can't hog the BFG for long cause is way out there and no health or armor next to it, and having 5 different classes means some of them will not have a BFG, plus there is plenty of room to take cover.

Which brings me to an interesting question- Everyone salivates over the BFG, yet I can't find good use to it, except dying and giving it up to someone else. It takes a tremendous amount of time to fire and to reach targets, even in the original Doom deathmatches I never used it much, except to shoot it when I knew I was gonna die and try to get a few cheap frags. Is there a trick to this weapon I dunno about?

After poking around the map, I don't see much of a problem with item placement and whatnot. I do have a suggestion, though: Don't remove the BFG, remove the railgun.

There are plenty of side-rooms to poke around in, but the main area is a giant empty space. That's not too great for BFG users, but some of our better rail/sniper users will eat that large area up and spit out anybody who dares try to pass through. This can make a map very frustrating for those who aren't so good with that weapon -- anybody who sucked it up on The Bouncy Map and Flying Plutonians in 99d will know what I'm talking about.

BUAAHAHAHAHA  I ALSO suck with  the railgun, ESPECIALLY at long distances, but the reason I put  it where it is is because it translates to a chaingun in DOOM, and the REAL map has a chaingun there. I think there has to be a railgun somewhere in that map tho, it just asks for it :-),  I dunno, we play tested it in pkarena and railgun was not a factor at all, we don't have a BFG, I substituted for a gravity well which was not a big issue either. I'd love to be able to play with a real bunch of gen players in a server and see what issues come up with real people.

PKArena and Generations Arena are two different mods. I can guarantee that if a good Strogg and a good Earth player roam the central area, they will own the map because of the Railgun and Sniper Rifle.

You could alternately put the Lightning Gun there, as it also converts to a Heavy Chaingun for Doom.

I totally agree, a lightning gun would make a much better replacement.

That teleporter pad up near the quad, it doesnt seem to work. That by design?
It could be used as a teleporter to a room off somewhere (yes, deviating slightly from the original, but we gotta bring it up to speed a little :) ) that could contain a railgun or somesuch.

EDIT: And no, my version is on the web anywhere... Just my computer. =/
Its a bit pants anyway. As pho said, it deviates from the original too much. Lemme find the thread I posted about it in.

White teleporters are landing pads.

And it's just a bit too fishy when you can grab a regen and a quad in one fell swoop.

Assamite is right, white teles are landing pads as far as I remember.
If I were to put a lightning gun where the rail is, what would I put where the lightning gun is right now? remember the tele from there goes to the midle of the level. Red armour maybe? Leave the lightning gun and have two?  How bout the railgun, no rail at all? or maybe in the "secret" room where the invis is?  Remove the regen altogether?

Can someone post a SHORT  demo with 3 or 4 bots and show me how to own this level with a railgun or a BFG?, I just don't get it, I playtest with 3 or 4 nightmare bots and I get my arse kicked pretty badly from the start that I can't own anything, and they kill me with the idiotic machingun from across the level, not the BFG or railgun :-)

Well, I found the time to do what you requested: It shows how any player (even shoddy railers) can take advantage of the HUGE distances.

http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/d2grosse_railfest_..._its_true.dm_68 (http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/d2grosse_railfest_yes_its_true.dm_68)

You'll note in the vid that none of the rails were quick reaction shots, and I missed three. One due to lousy aiming, one due to the rail sticking in a floor and one because Knight got a really spiffy rocket going. I didn't really check the amount of rails fired. 19 out of 20 were rail kills. I didn't count the amount of rails fired, but let's say 9 out of 10 connects for the patient rail camper. Any Strogg railer dishes out a whopping 125 damage per shot, and as you can see, only once my fellow Strogginist managed to survive it. So, for every railgun or ammo box acquired, the railer gets about 8 or 9 kills. As you can see, the game didn't even last beyond a minute with a 20 point fraglimit.

In summary: Yes, this map is definately  railwhoreing-heaven. Slipgate won't even stand a snowball's chance in hell. I don't know about BFG problems, but well, it is rather easy to get, thank goodness the Arena BFG has been de-horrible-spammer-ized..

Too many powerups. FAR too many powerups.

It'd make a fun single-player map though, if we ever get Resurgence working.

Also, it's a bit too dark...

Tab: Railgun picked up 9 seconds in, and 28 rails fired. One was a BS shot, so that's 19 kills in 27 shots.

I'm hardly the best with these weapons, but what the heck. Four minutes each:
Strogg (http://makou.ian-justman.com/makou_sucks_with_rail.dm_68)
Earth (http://makou.ian-justman.com/makou_sucks_with_rifle.dm_68)

I am speechless, Tabun..... You don't count, you and tekhead seem to have X-Ray  and magnified vision, you can't really expect the average player to even come close to that, for example, I tried to duplicate it and not only did I get killed a lot and lost BIG,  I got in like 5 out of 20 rail shots, and three of them were lucky :-)

That's what I needed!  To get a good look at what that weap[on can do. Makou, you are more human :-) and still do MUCH better than I can. I could only see the rail one cause the other one was downloading at .4 kb/sec and I already got a good idea of what you guys mean.

Here's what I'm gonna do, leave the quad and the regen but not close together and increase the spawn time. Change the railgun for a lightning gun. Change the previous lightning gun for the regen. Move the BFG to the secret location and eliminate the extra BFG ammo (although by Makou's demo I didnt see a big issue with the BFG), remove the haste (since I shortened the map), remove the invisibility  powerup (will put the BFG there) and make the main area brighter, then I'll post another beta.

One more question, what the heck is this powerup I saw yesterday soul vengeance something? I think I killed myself with it ?  :-)  Can I put one where the BFG is now?  How do you add that thing to the map?

Yes, there was a reason I went ahead and let fly with the BFG a few times in that demo. :)

The Lost Soul of Vengeance spawns interchangably with the Personal Teleporter in Generations Arena. Place a PT, and the LSOV will randomly spawn in its place. The PT is pretty well out in the open in some VQ3 maps, so I don't see a problem with putting one where the BFG is currently. It's a fun item, and I don't think it'll bother anybody.

Thanks!

Here's yet another beta with the above mentioned changes. I ain't no expert but it seems to me I would wanna be an earth player in this level. I just can't seem to make it fair for all classes at once, but at least it wont be a railfest.

EDIT:  10/09/04 Changed beta to beta5- see post of 10/08 below for changes

http://www.flu.stonks.com/gengrosse_beta5.zip (http://www.flu.stonks.com/gengrosse_beta5.zip)

19 out of 27? I hope you're not counting the shots needed to open the weapons cache :]

Here are the real statistics.. if anyone gives a shite, anyway:

Rails fired:                           28
Rails aimed at walls or unaimed shots:  3
Rails aimed at opponents:              25
Rails hit:                             21
Railkills:                             19

Thus, a ratio of 21/25 -> 84% hits and 19/21 shots is a kill -> 90%.

Mind: I know I'm a relatively good shot with the railgun, but the demo I posted shows nothing exceptional. As I've explained, they're mostly slow aimed sure-shots. Anyone with _patience_ can do this. Just put your crosshair where someone will be, wait a bit, and pull the trigger. Quick reaction shots are much, much harder, and take lots of practice - one of the points I was trying to make is that you can actually stroll about on the map and not worry about the latter. :]

Changes sound interesting, and I have a feeling Doom's chaingun is going to rule the day ..
but playtesting will tell us more ;]

I get missing textures all over the place when loading it in vq3...

That aside, the celing lights are neat. The layout is... well, can't really say much about it - a big flat room with a few columns and a few side areas.

The huge ammo stockpile makes me wonder if that'll be a balance issue, since anyone that wanders through that room will be tanked u pon pretty much every weapon.

What's with the grappling hook? =/

I think Tabun's right - any long-range weapon will destroy the opposistion on this map. Railgun, Chaingun, Lightning Gun, Gatling Gun, etc etc are extremely powerful in this sort of enviroment.

I think the shootable columns should crush whoever is too slow underneath them, but that's my opinion.

I'm just not fond of this map. It could only fit in Generations because of its theme, no more.

TEK: I guess I should've mentioned, this is just the .bsp and bot file, you NEED the d2grosse map posted earlier that has all the custom textures and models stuff in the pk3. It's like a patch.

The layout is similar to the real D2map32 level, I just shortened it and made it taller., and the item placement resembles the real map too, including the stockpile ammo :-) which I actually cut by at least half, that's where all the ammo was to overstock to kill that big horned beast.

The grappling hook is necessary for pkarena, this map is also painkeeped you just don't see the stuff except the grappling hook, but since we're fine in pk with the last version, and this one is being optimized for gen, I'll take it off..

The columns are set on crush if you get caught on the edges, you can't make it a flat crush cause that would make the items underneath dissappear, I had it set to high damage but the stupid bots kept getting crushed lots and lots of times and it annoyed me, now it just takes some health away.

Tabun: You can downplay what you've done all you want, you still my HERO :-) no way in hell I can get anywhere near that accuracy even if I make the bots in the stupiedest setting.

What's really scary is that Tab is just about that accurate with high pings.

And just a note, bots are generally stupid. They're good for showing the rail issues in the demos we posted, but that's about it. People are (hopefully) going to be a little more random than that, but the rail issue is still there. Good to see you took that under advisement.

However, with the crushing column issue -- I agree that those should be set to high damage and just crush anybody caught under them. Bots are not a good measure for those.

I'm revising this puppy and cutting down item placement a lot, this generations mods is REALLY REAALY tough to balance :-) but worth it, lots of fun.

Even then it's basically just a giant box map. I think it'd be ok if you shrank the central area to about 60% of its current size. As it stands, anyone in that middle room has a LONG, LONG way to go to anywhere else.

I sure will try that, it ain't gonna look much like Grosse when I'm done :=)  I hope I dont get blasted for that hehhh.

I cut down on items by probably over 60%, and shortened the main area a LOT, not 60 %, but close to 40%.  I ran around with a few bots and I think there still is one too many rockets, but otherwise is getting there.

Remember you NEED D2Grosse to play this beta, only the .bsp and .aas are included.

EDIT: Linked to beta3 discontinued, see post below.

Just unzip to baseq3.

Uhmmm, I may be making one final cut to shrink it more, I have an idea (It's not always a good thing when I think)

EDIT:  BUAHAHAHA- I managed to shrink it to about 60% of the first  gengrosse_beta, narrowed it a lot too and I think Con was right, it plays a lot faster and tight, if I can manage to find and remove  all the overlapping brushes and curves, this is gonna be a real athletic map. I'll post  it later on today.

OK, here it goes, the new slim, shorter, weaponless grosse beta.

http://www.flu.stonks.com/gengrosse_beta5.zip (http://www.flu.stonks.com/gengrosse_beta5.zip)

O_o ...I think you destroyed the character of the map...

:-)  The character of the map seemed to have been destroyed since day 1, just not DM friendly at all. I still have all the other betas, I could un-destroy it, but I don't think is gonna get any better, it's just a big box, it was fun playing DOOM back in the days, just not very Q3 friendly.