Wirehead Studios

A Q3 Player model.

Anyone remember this fellow?

(http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/enforcer_01.jpg)

:)

:ownage:  The Enforcer

I remember him.
 Heavy  wesion of  ^_^

O_o Heavy wesion?? is that german for Version

It may be Polish "wersja"
 I just misspelled   :evil:

Man, I loved that guy, probably one of the few things I did like out of Quake, even if his weapon sucked.  :D

ohhh me likes!  <3

It was always my favourite Quake enemy - I love the sounds. The only thing he lacked was a melee attack, which made him look somewhat cheesy from up close.

I do hope this can be somehow implemented in Generations without offending copyrights though.. something tells me the concept of 'a zombie in bio-hazard armour wearing a backpack' is hard to get exclusive rights to... :]

Hey, that sucky weapon is what spawned your beloved Q1MP1 Laser Cannon, bird. :P

Yes, but the Q1MP1 laser cannon fired multiple rounds at rapid fire that bounced off walls like the ion ripper in Q2MP1.  The weapon the Enforcers used in Quake 1 was the predecessor to the Quake 2 blaster pistol.  I think that says enough.

And as with all technology, it is at least twelve times the size of the Q2 blaster pistol mk.2 :]

The burning question has not been addressed though..

Well, you guys were planning resurgence right? I don't know whether that idea is still going, but isn't it along the same lines as this?

Well, my question would be, how are we going to get sounds for him?

... /me seriuosly ponders in replacing Slippy Quake guy - Ranger - by yummy Enforcer (provided it has ok sounds [not like Q3TA silly hurt and jump sounds] and yummy Quake-style-high-definition skins to boot!). :thumb: :ownage: ...

great model

hope the skin is as good :)

Sounds will be difficult, but I guess we'll just have to come up with something :]

Resurgence would require differente animations than the ones to be used for Q3 player models, so it would still be a side project ;]

Skins are my forte, so if you like the model I wouldn't worry about the skins :]
Hell, the model is still a W.I.P. and yesterday I made some serious changes to the torso and waist of the model, so it's improved even now ;]

Excellent as always. I love this stuff.

Very Smooth

A small update:

(http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/enforcer_02.jpg)

The little fellow is around 1300 polies now, even after some optimization, so I'll have to cut some polies here and there, but other than that I'm about ready to properly unwrap and mirror him :]

any chance of seeing jaeger any time soon?

as for the enforcer :thumb:

would be nice to have him as a playable slippy

why cutting the polies , optimizing is good , cutting detail aint ;)

... humm... so, it won't be a Generations Slippy player model?...

Nice work for so far! Even if it doesn't become an actual Gen player model it will still be a welcome addition to the Q3 player roster alongside the Imp, Arachnotron, Q1 Grunt, etc.

Why take the word of someone who has nothing to do with the mod or this model? I say it becomes a Q3 player model (hell, I even did that in the first post of this thread :)).

Optimizing is sometimes the same as cutting polies. Polygons that are not visible at any time, polygons that are not nescessary (ie. can be effectively replaced by details on a skin) etc. Considering it's not done, and some detail will be added later, I have to make sure the total polycount keeps well under 1500, to prevent it from being nuts :]

For instance, the detail in the abdominal cover of the armor added about a hundred polygons, while this effect can easily be replaced by a good skin.

Games:  Hard-detailing certain areas seriously restricts what a skinner can do on the mesh.  Hard geometric detail is great for static models that will only ever have one texture (ie, weapons) but with player models there's got to be some flexibility unless you want it to always look the same all the time.

Wooptidoo: Unwrapped.

(http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/enforcer_03.jpg)

Whoa, all I said was it would be nice to have him a Slippy player.  Never once did I say what was going to happen.  Before anybody thinks of knife throwing, it was a suggestion not fact. I said it because you can tell already that it is going to be a sweet looking model, and all I asked was if there was any chance of seeing jaeger any time soon.  As for the enforcer, it would be nice to have him as a playable Slippy.  I didn't imply one way or another.

(corrected for spelling, grammar, and improper spacing)

Will the model ship with that skin pls ?

what happened to me having the wurst grammar and spelling ? I never got corrected . :(

It could go well along with the uber-purple Doomguy. :rules:  Just add in a map like Pure Ugly. Pretty lurid, man  :biggun:

I'm calling this creation: "Dotta-Polk, the misinterpreted clown"

That's because you don't double-space all your sentences.  I don't plan on correcting his spacing again either, I just felt like doing it this time.  Admin's privelege.

I might be able to do a little voice work for this guy. ;)

And on to the next step, which is usually the most painful one, since I generally have to assign every vertex to a controller about twice, while I correct errors.. le riggingue.

(http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/enforcer_04.jpg)
"Whee! I am giddy and I am rigged!"

Next stop: Skindonia

I'm with you there, It's oh so tempting to make them dance and put them in... compromising positions once you've done all that hard work...

We've got to do a Moltar (http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/m/moltar.jpg) skin for this guy!  ;)

Oooo! Oooo! Can I make some player models for Resurgence? I have some good experience in that area.

rofl, hilarious pho

it's early and I tried to read up on the answer to the burning question and I can't seem to see it. so did anyone figure out what to do about the sounds?

I'm sure some soundforge action on the ranger sounds would be suffice  :ninja:

The 'burning question', to me was whether or not this in any way can be part of the Gen package. Sounds can be made, but if only a few will be able to hear them, what's the use? :]

Oh right, legal question!  We'll need to bug Lee on that one.

I haven't done a player model before for quake 3, so I am wondering, what is a good limit on polygons?

~1200 is nice. 900 is low (q3 player model default), 1500 is a tad high.

Here is a question, do you inmbed the wepon in the model itself, or do you model it separatly?

Neither, Q3 weapons are not connected to models other than by a positional tag. I suggest you read up a bit on Q3 player model creation/importing:

http://www.qeradiant.com/manual/Model_Manu...odel_manual.htm (http://www.qeradiant.com/manual/Model_Manual/model_manual.htm)
http://www.4thdimented.com/dimented_tutori...ialQuake3_1.htm (http://www.4thdimented.com/dimented_tutorialQuake3_1.htm)

There's a few tricks to it 'unique' to the game.

Hey, I just thought of something.

This is all well and good... but where's the female Slipgater? I would have thought that would be a priority over another male player model. :P

Moltar! harvest his skin!

Thanks Tab, that helps alot.  :thumb:
Edit: What I ment was, there is no "weapon" for the enforcer persay. So what happens then?

You tag the model on his hand, and then Quake 3 puts the model there itself. A very nice way of doing it, as you only need to make one model.

Thanks o'dium ;]

Washu: also be sure to visit my new sticky thread in the Laced Neptune forum, for (hopefully) helpful tips and tricks on Q3 modelling.

Since I've posted a few shots already, I guess I'll do some progress shots here, for a change. Maybe some people would like to see the skinning process in steps (or sometimes, leaps)..

(http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/enforcer_05.jpg)

Nice... nice...
Keep pumping, or 'em pimping.  :smirk:

I can't resist making a reference to Fuzzy Pumper Palette Shop here.  :doomed:

Oh my, he's hardcore.
Polycounts gonna wub you :)

I love how youve made his torso look similar to the slipgate YA.
You doing CTF skins for this guy Tab? Just an idea :)

Looks great for a low poly model  :ninja: The only crit i can say is that maybe those wrists are gonna look a bit odd, but thats because of the angle i think.

Thanks - The hands and wrists are a bit on the blocky side, but you're right, this is not the most flattering angle to see them from. :]

Yes - I'm going to do CTF skins for the feller - it's going to be a full Q3 player model kit, including a 'bot' ;]

Tabun, how are you with high poly work, i.e. REALLY high poly CGI style stuff? i.e. models and normal map models?

Hopefully this dude will eventually be a monster on the battle feild. ;)

I'm afraid I wouldn't actually know, o'dium.. I've never tried (I think that actually means I will suck in it for at least a while ;)).
I know my share of subdiv tricks, so my high poly modelling should be ok. My greatest skill lies in using skins to make bland models come to life, so I don't think I'd be much good (or have much fun) making normal maps etc.

I saw on the Blur forum that you were looking for a modeler, but I don't think I can be of help.

I stink at skinning way bad. The last thing I tryed to skin was a spaceship. It ended looking like one of those shacks, people of poverty live in South America.

No attempts to steal out Vertexinator/Pixel Prodder will be permitted on this forum!  :)~

It would be a waste of time to even attempt to attempt to do that.  :)
It will never happen.  :thumb:

I'm more worried about attempts to hijack the thread :]

So far I haven't had a single 'offer I could not refuse' - just make sure the money's right when you give it a shot ;]

I knew I should have brought money , do you accept souls to ?

Oi, i wasn't stealing nobody :p Just loved the work he did on those hands a while back, looking for some hands me'self ;)

I don't know why, but this thread makes me want to say "Klaatu barada nikto"

 :)

Whats that mean?

Please, stop using the thread as an IRC channel people. I'm pretty serious about doing some pimpwork here sooner or later, but I don't like to do it in a 'rants and randomness' type setting. If it's too hard to keep on-topic, I'll close the thread and simply update here without allowing comments.

Edit: so that means that if you understand and agree with the above, you won't post 'okay, sorry' or something like that, because that would be chatting - the absence of unrelated posts will be interpreted as agreement - and I will in return silently thank you by not responding to .. ehr.. the not-post.

Hmm, gonna go  :offtopic: here for a sec...
Just kidding :) *cough*

Just wondering, if this goes well (and given the nod to release it alongside Gen), are more classic player models in store?

EDIT: Just realised how bloody formal that question sounded.... so...

Rephrase: 'r j00 doing moer modles aft3r dis tabb3h?'

That really depends on a few things:

a. How we're al feeling about resurgence when the time comes. If nobody gives a shit, or nobody's working on it, I'm not going to make a shitload of models that will not see any use just for the hell of it. If it becomes a big hit, then I'll probably do a lot for it.

b. How foxable it all gets. If this player model can't even be linked to, for example, I'm not really motivated to do any more.

c. How happy I'll be with the result. If it sucks, I'll just stick to other stuff, like texture sets for mappers. No sense in wasting effort on a lost cause.

----

And to prove that (although I have been 'sitting still' for a while) this project is not canceled:

(http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/enforcer_06.jpg)

Another progress shot.

Nice.

You ARE gonna put grainier layers on that skin, right? It just looks too "smooth" ATM.

complete "perfect" skin, then proceed to detail it.

pretty standard procedure.

The Enforcer has always been my favorite Q1 enemy... "Freeze!" *zap* *zap*... and that weird breathing howl thing they did while walking around. And the fact they just looked cool...

Looks badass, Tab... as always. :)

It's questions like that that generally make me think twice before showing W.I.P's. Assume I'll do a good job, if I say it's done and it sucks, then let me know ;]

Right... forgot to ask last time.. but... you gonna animate the thing too? Granted that's still a ways yet.. but the HeLLSpAwN is curious. :D

That's why I rigged it in the first place :]
At the moment I just have doom's .bip (Steeds CharStud movement files) in place so I could make an actual Q3 Pk3 for testing purposes, but I'll get him proper movement when the skin is done.

Wow, exellent model so far:) .

I'd love to see that one on the battle field. How slim are the chances of it being in Gen anyway? If I'm not mistaken someone mentioned in order for a model to be in Gen it has to already be in  q3...if I'm correct

P.S. I just love the face through the visor... <3 Great job!!!!

Well, what we need is for Id to not say "Thou shalt not" since it resembles a Q1 enemy.  They did allow the Reborn models out as PPM's, so there's a chance it'll be ok.  We'll find out for sure first.

When we emailed id about our rt/rm project they said everything was fine. The problems arise when you steal the media from the other games. You see, even though i was making q2 media for q2, they could be downloaded and used in anything, so at the end of the day, what i was really doing was making media q2 style, that could be used anywhere.

Now id dont mind this, as long as everything we made was new, nothing was ripped from past games, and id were credited for the old stuff.

Seeing as Tabun is making a new PPM model, it shouldn't hurt, because everything he has done is fresh, its all his work. Its just "based" on a model id did ten years ago, and as long as you put "based on he work of id software" in your read me file with the model, you should be good to go.

What the Q2 gen team saw was that even if id has no problems with the content, its distributors have a huge say in things; likeness of character can be and is protected by copyright (includes monsters). So while id will probably simply be flattered by our efforts, Activision might not, or at least not make it play any part in their foxing decisions.
I'm not sure if I remember the name correctly, but I think it was the Hunt team that remade all the Doom monsters, and got foxed like nobody's business.. I don't think we're home-free yet.

Yeah that was Reborn. It was the monsters that got them in the most trouble, if I recall correctly

To my knowledge, the main reason Q2 Generations got foxed is because it ripped items -- textures, sounds, models, etc. -- from Id's property. Things that were recreated by hand, such as the models for their Wolf3D and Doom classes, were okay, but everything else that was just "ported" would have had to be replaced. That's what I remember reading when the project was foxed.

I think the reason that Reborn got the axe wasn't so much because of the likenesses of the models -- they could have fought that by citing the "legal" portions of Q2Gen -- but because they were attempting to fully recreate Doom with the Quake 3 engine. That goes beyond using the likenesses of Id's property.

I guess the line gets drawn at the questions "Are they using things that in every way, shape, and form are our property?" and "Is this something that we have already made available and could potentially lose money from?" This model wasn't ripped directly from Quake, it doesn't look exactly like the Quake Enforcer, it won't have the exact same sounds, it won't have the exact same animations -- and even if Resurgence is ever done, it still won't be exactly the same as what it is based on.

If this model is illegal for being based on the likeness of an entity from Id's Quake... then a large portion of Generations Arena (including, but not limited to, weapon and ammo pickups) does not walk the line, it crosses into illegality. And unless I'm living in the Twilight Zone, all of that is legal.

But hey, better to check and be sure...

That is feaking awsome skin Tab. It scared me at first.
I have a fear of red eyes to the point of heart attack.

Anyway, I'm sure it won't be illegal for a spacesuit guy weilding a laser gun be recreated. It's like trying to make it illegal for a car company to make SUVs execpt for the company who originally created the design.

What Makou said.

The resemblance is a bit on the too-exact side to throw it on the 'a generic humanoid cannot be copyrighted' argument. My model resembles the original in shape, in texture (colours, some level of detail). Animation and sound will obviously be different, but I fear that if someone decides on a no-go and wants to sue, we're fried.

I don't understand why the whole copyright thing is such a huge issue if everything is scratch-made and the mod is not for profit.

it's not like you're threatening to put id out of business with a tribute mod based on their old characters.  :(

(http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/enforcer_07.jpg)

Just a little step further.


The point is that copyright issues are generally not something that (when approached the nice way, like we did and do) harms or insults the actual authors. It's the distributors and typical bureaucratic organisations behind them that throw a fit, probably for no other reason than that they can. Power is such a 'wonderful' thing - and under the guise of 'otherwise we wouldn't know where to draw the line', a lot of reasonable approaches get shoveled out of the way.

Something I missed earlier;
Makou: As I understand it, a sharp distinction is made between objects and characters. Objects, such as weapons and items are no trouble at all, it seems, as indeed Generations is totally legal with pretty near likeness in that area. Characters would be a different story altogether and we can only use those because they were included in Quake 3 Arena in the first place. It all comes down to figuring out whether or not this particular monster is considered to be a 'character' in that respect.

Is there a diference between this enforcer model and Arachnatron at polycount in term of legality ?

 It looks stunning  :)

BTW, thanks for the kind words all ;]

Kingu: Not really. The copyright issue is pretty much the same for that, with one exception: the enforcer is basically a generic hazard-suit-armor marine, which might make it less 'copyrightable'. The Arachnotron is in essence undeniably one of id's creations and the likeness of the polycount model can be directly linked back to the original monster.

So if i understand correctly, "We" have more chances to be legal, than over 3 years old Arachnotron model ? :rolleyes:

Tab: As I understand it, yes, that's correct. Although, if you remember SOG for Quake 2, they used the exact same player models for the "Blaze" and "Flynn" classes as Q2Gen did for Wolf3D and Doom, so the issue there seems to be the fact that the Q2Gen classes were named "WolfGuy" and "DoomGuy" -- obviously saying that they were the characters from Wolfenstein 3D and Doom. While the names and sounds were in violation of copyright, the models themselves were apparently legal.

Following that, if you called this guy something other than what could easily be viewed as "the Enforcer enemy from Id Software's Quake" and gave him his own set of sounds ... the model should be completely legal, at least as a PPM. Its usage in Resurgence may be another issue, unfortunately.

Kingu: If you're trying to insert 'Us' as part of an official mod release? Yes.

Mak: I agree, and I hope the relevant authorities agree with us.

Yes "Us" as part of an official mod release.  
 Actualy i should say You, I'm not a beta tester.

I also thought, would it be and issue if Resurgence had desciption battle against certainst bot/computer controlled player models not monsters ?

I highly doubt that id will lose profits for this. If anything gain some, just look at Tab's beautiful creation. Pimping things like that are hard. :hat:

What people are failing to grasp here is it's not copyright that's the problem, it's intellectual property (IP) rights.  There's a difference.  Copyright is if I take the v_spike.mdl from Quake and use it in Gen . That's a copyright violation.  An IP violation is a lot more grey, but has to do more with ownership of concept.  Let's say, for example, I decide to make a video game with a blue spikey-haired mammal named "Turbo the Porcupine" that bore a decidedly strong resemblence to another spikey-haired blue mammal of similar species.  That could open grounds for a lawsuit because I'm ripping off the concept of their character.  If the resemblence is very strong it's an IP violation and the lawyers can pounce if they so choose.  If it's a very loose resemblence you might get away with it, provided it's loose enough to not be readily and easily mistaken for the original.  There are all sorts of reasons for these kinds of protections that go far beyond what we're dealing with here.  Also, do not confuse this with use of character in satire or parody, that's an area that's expressly protected under the First Amendment rights of freedom of expression, otherwise Comedy Central and "Weird" Al Yankovic wouldn't be employed.

Weapons tend to be a more open area.  A shotgun is a shotgun is a shotgun.  Specific and unique weapons, like the BFG's, were the questionable area but Id said we were OK with calling them the proper names from the original games.  That was resolved early on.  Making our own, from-scratch content keeps us from violating copyrights, and the IP concerns were cleared up by LeeMon's frequent correspondence to Todd H.  Also, profits are irrelevent.  We make zero (0) profits from Generations, yet people have repeatedly ripped off our models at various times.  Just because we don't make money from our work does not give people a license to take our work and call it their own.  That is expressly protected under copyright law, and we're within our rights to seek legal relief against someone if they do that.  There's also a burden to do so.  Ever hear of "abandonware"?  If we don't protect our rights, after a time, a precedent is considered for forfeiture, so it's not that companies are "out to squash people because they can", it's that if they want to maintain any semblence of control over their own content they are required to pounce on violators.  It's just the nature of the copyright system.

Everyone also needs to keep in mind our primary goal in our work is to be respectful of Id Software, their copyrights, and their intellectual property.  The goal is not to win a legal hair-splitting contest.  This isn't an "us against them" situation.  Please bear that in mind.  The last thing we want is for Id to change their mind about Gen and decide we're invading their personal space and tell us to pull the plug.  They've allowed us to continue this project without trouble because we've been respectful, asked permission, and cleared just about everything possible with them before proceeding.  Reborn got shut down because they did not ask permission and used character likenesses specifically to re-create monsters and basically wanted to do a Q3-to-Doom TC.  Id did allow the models to be released as PPM's, so Tab is almost certainly OK to release his model as a Q3 PPM; the question is whether we can include it officially with Generations without stepping on any toes.  That's what we need to clear up.

Id Software has every right to protect what is theirs, and we respect this right and will continue to go out of our way to make sure we stay on their good side.  If we didn't love their games then WTF are we doing this for anyway, right?  ;)

Right  ... :slippy_love:  <3  ...   ^_^

 Side note, when we will have strogg smilies ?

There we go. All cleared up again.
My bad for not making the IP/CR distinction - the former was what I was talking about ;]

I've done pretty much 99% of the texturing (and thus, the skinning). Note that the visor will look different in Q3, I still need to write a shader for that and Npherno's GLviewer only allows a simple additive blend. Still, you'll get the general idea.

http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/enforcer_08.jpg (http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/enforcer_08.jpg)
(it's a little wide, so I didn't spam it in the topic)

And the skin maps:

(http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/enforcer_09.jpg)

I'm going to write up a shader now, and see how it looks in Quake.

After that, I'll have to get some animations done -- I think I'll tackle the Quake first person weapon anims first though! :]

And hopefully after this week (bummer) I'll be able to get back to some serious Gen work.  I hate distractions, especially the time-consuming variety.  Enforcer is looking very nice.  He's unmistakable, and looks a lot more menacing than the original.  :)

:slippy_love: That looks so awesome... AND so nostalgic. After looking at that pic, I made a run through e2m1 just to fight the enforcers for the first time in about 2 years. :slippy_love:

"freeze!" *gurgle gurgle* *zapp zapp* *ZAT ZAT*

the Enforcer looks awesome, I'd totally use him in Gen, permitting we make it that far.

Resurgance won't ever happen, realistically, on account of intellectual properties. Resurgance should have the old monsters ... but if you can't even legally re-create the monsters, what's the point? unless you make the Shambler into a 14 foot tall snowman that shoots lightning from his ass (yes, his ass), I don't see why you should even bother. :(

btw, how is it that we're capable of remaking/remixing maps from old games, so long as they're scratch made? why wouldn't IP affect those as well?

just a thought  :ownage:

Well actually no one has said that remaking maps is "illegal" but nor has anyone said they are leagal either.
That's why generations is released with seperate mappacks.

But since there are plenty of remakes of diffrent maps to diffrent games it seems to be OK to most game companies.
Btw i think if you remake a map you should stay in the "game" series eg. q1 q2 q3 or doom doom 2 doom 3. remaking a quake map to eg. Unreal i think is out of the question.

1. Maps are a gray area, that's (among other things) why we're releasing mappacks, not a single gen-pack ;]

2. Resurgence would not include all the monster models, but would be a base that 'third party' material could be installed into. We'd only distribute the base, but anyone could make or download 'monster kits' and play with them.

Resurgence was cleared with Todd H. a long time ago because it does not require any specific monster models.  It's a long story, but here's the gist of it.

1)  Resurgence would use a plug-in script system.
2)  Scripts can reference any valid Q3 player model.
3)  Third-party models could function however the script author decided.

So you write a script for a monster that's X units long by Y units wide by Z units high, H number of health, and fires Doom-style plasma projectiles.  Fine, you could use Orbb for all we care, but you could also tell it "use the Arachnotron player model" and voila, instant monster.  This means the end user is using already released third-party player models.  We're not doing anything that would violate a copyright or IP rights since it's a generic scripting system that would allow anyone to write anything they wanted.  Of course, we could release pre-defined scripts, and then the end-user would need to download the models, or a separate "monster pack" could be made like the mappacks as a courtesy to the players.  See, there's several options, but the plug-in functionality is what made the entire thing permissible.

Just because we've still got a lot to do it does not mean Resurgence is a dead issue at this point.  I think it's just that we had a lot more on our plate than we initially thought.  You don't find out how much work is involved in something like this until you get knee deep in the code.

This whole likeness/concept deal confuses me. Here's an example of what I'm trying to get at.

Take Gen's plasma rifle for example:

http://www.wireheadstudios.org/album/album...shots.sized.jpg (http://www.wireheadstudios.org/album/album38/doompgun_shots.sized.jpg)

Now take the original:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v123/DaJ...PlasmaRifle.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v123/DaJuice/PlasmaRifle.jpg)

So if the brown metal plate thingie was on gen's plasma rifle, would then that be considered an IP problem? How would one judge an IP violation based on likeness? Some people may say that gen's model doen't look like the original, some may say that is doesn't, and then there may be some people who say "it kinda does"
So if I give my chaingunner model some hair and remove his facial hair, would I still be walking the line?

BTW that enforcer looks really awsome. The shoes look ackward for some reason I can't put my finger on it, but it doesn't really bother me. Great skin, I wish I could skin like that.

What we have concluded (and in fact is mentioned at least twice in this thread), is that weapons are not a problem. We even have been given permission to use the names. Before trying to make everything clear, keep in mind that this is typically one of those 'gray area' sides of the law. Where exactly to draw the line? Well, unless you'd like a whole lot of speculation in regards to the way distributors/lawmen decide on that, let's keep it simple and take what we know: Yay for guns, nay for characters.

Also, that bottom shot is not the original, right? :]
It's just another person's interpretation of the original, which is the Doom sprite itself.
The plasmagun is a rather odd choice here, by the way, since it is one of our weapons that looks least like (a specific version of) the original. Take the Strogg rocket- or grenadelauncher and compare the way they resemble the original versions; the inclusion of the latter two in Generations is totally legal.


Edit: I'm going to consider the discussion of CR/IP on-topic, until the final word is out on the Enforcer's legality ;]

Darn my horrible communication skills. :(
I was wrong on using weapons since they are not a problem.
What I want to know is do I need direct permission to release a chiaingunner model that protains likeness to the original, (which is the issue now) and any other model afterwards? My comprehenion skills are poor so forgive me if it was said already.

I don't see any problem with said skills :] - just clearing some stuff up.

You do not need express permission to either make or release a Quake 3 PPM resembling the Doom Chaingunner. (As long as it is made from scratch) you can make it look as much as the original as you can, and there won't be a problem. You are allowed to release it on a depository model site (such as Polycount.com), and you'll be totally ok.
Possible problems arise if we were to release that model with Generations ;]

Tab: Looking good!! On the Gen issue, perhaps I'm talking out of my arse, but what about releasing the model as a VQ3 PPM, and then releasing the animation2.cfgs seperately? Just a thought.

Pho: Did somebody mention Hunt? ;) The customizable script sounds great, but :offtopic: would there be any extra projectiles available (such as fireballs, laser bolts, gibs :evil: , etc)?

resurgence is based on hunt for a part .

I have no reason to leave animation2.cfgs out of the loop? Inserting them in the pack doesn't destroy VQ3, right?

Nor would including the extra frames that will be needed in the PPM's upper for the new stances we have in mind.  That's why I went with the animation2.cfg concept.  It allows us to make models that can be fully compatible with Gen, without being incompatible with VQ3.  It also allows model authors to adapt their already existing models to work with Gen and still be compatible with VQ3.  I may be a bird-brain, but I do try to plan ahead.  :)~

And that bottom weapon, while it is a nice render of a high poly model, is an artists interpretation of a plasma rifle.  It is not the original for the following reasons:

1)  It's a bull-pup configuration.  If you don't know what this means, it has to do with the magazine being behind the trigger instead of forward of it.
2)  It has no upper carry handle.
3)  It has a red dot reticle on it.
4)  The magazine looks like a hyperblaster mag instead of a Doom cell clip.

The original Doom plasma rifle had no shoulder stock, had the handle in the back, and had the cell clip in front of the trigger.  The model I made is true to that, while the housing is open to expose the nice glowey plasma tubes.  That was a design decision on my part.  This artist's version has the housing true to the original, but he modified the receiver area.  You could say both of ours are derivatives.  What he did could easily be an alternate model used for close-quarters combat, with a shorter housing and interchangable barrel with the standard plasma rifle, whereas ours is "What the Vadrigar decided to cook up based on the original".

That's where artistic license comes into play, the same with Tab's enforcer.  If you're remaking something at a higher definition, you're going to have to make decisions on how you want to spice it up.  ;)

I see.
Well I hope there won't be a problem releasing it with gen, but I won't put all my eggs in one basket. ;^)
Or would things like monsters be distributed like the map-packs are?
And I do see why I should have compared model to model instead of sprite to model. :^)

And to show this project is by no means dead:

(http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/enforcer_10.jpg)

Yup, it's in Quake 3!

I still have to do an acceptable taunt animation, and do some touching up on the rest, but it's nearly ready for PPM-release.

And I suppose it's no surprise that he looks far better than any of the standard Q3A player models. ;)

You are right Makou

Sweet, man! Does that mean you found sounds too? Or are you going with Sarge grunts?

Nup, no sounds yet, but I'll try my hand at a sound pack.. if anyone's got something for me to try (other than illegally ripped audio ofcourse), let's hear it!

Looks awsome Tabs.

That's damn good work! :slippy_thumb:

... i have a bonner on that model now... i'll see how sounds behave, or be back to Slippy :p ...

I think he could just pound his chest with his off-hand a few times and it would look very appropriate for the "grunt" mentality.  ;)

holy cow thats great :D

That looks really cool, brings a tear to my eye :

Hey Tab: Gimme a bit and I'll try some voice work for him. :)

Actually, if memory serves, the quake manual says the grunts were.. modified so that they'd have a "paroxysm of ecstacy" on killing someone..

So, in attempting to keep my mind out of the gutter.. Maybe just have wobble/tilt back a bit and cackle?

That model is excellent. I can't think of anything to say thats not been said.  Why you are not doing this for a living is the only thing I don't understand. (but don't go till Gens finished!) :thumb:

More good news!

I've called it a day. Not striving for perfection on this, I call it done and done. There are no sounds yet, but fearing that it will take quite a long time to make them, I decided to release without them. If and when a good sound pack is made, I will release it separately.

http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/tabun_qforcer.zip (http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/tabun_qforcer.zip)

Just smack the PK3 in your baseq3 dir and choose /model qforcer.
There's a red and blue skin, but no others yet.

Have fun and let me know what you all think.

P.S.

The following highly illegal and very temporary placeholder set of sounds is available to spice the model up. Just for nostalgia - be sure not to hang on to them, for the wrath of id shall be upon thou!

http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/tabun_qforcer_qsounds.zip (http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/tabun_qforcer_qsounds.zip)

excellent model, just ebing playing as him

and


IT'S FRICKIN AWESOME !!!!!!!

brings back the good old days.  :thumb:  :thumb:  :thumb:  :thumb:  :thumb:  :thumb:  :thumb:  :thumb:  :thumb:

oh i've had an idea, say i had the old q3 models that depicted familiar characters from id games how would i go about say changed them from arena to doom warrior?

plus he doesn't appear in gen, i only tested him in vanilla quake and chance on fixing him for slippy play?

The enforcer here seems to suffer from the same swimming bug thing that Doom suffers from. I was running around q3dm12 map in third person and noticed it. As I said tho.. this also happens with the Doom model, so... I dunno.

Also notcied that his torso doesn't show up in the shadows when 'cg_shadows 2' is set. Head and legs are there tho...

All in all tho... it brought a tear to my eye while I was running around. Note that I also used the 'illegal' sound pack. Man... that was just awesome... "Freeze! *rail*"

EDIT: As for him not showing up in Gen, I disagree...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/Vaeladven/Quake3/Spawnforcer.jpg)
He doesn't have a bot tho... so maybe that's what you meant..

He's got pretty much the exact same swimming animations as Doom, so that would explain the 'swimming bug' - although I don't know what that is.
The shadows == a mystery to me. Perhaps the lack of LOD versions? Then again.. why only the torso? Makes no sense to me.

Load up q3 arena and use the doom model. Pick a map with water on it... make sure cheats are enabled with '/devmap'... then type '/cg_thirdperson 1'. Then go swimming. :)

Tab: Excellent work as usual!! :thumb:  :thumb:  :thumb:  :slippy_thumb:  :slippy_thumb:  :slippy_thumb:

Bane: Pho will probably eat me alive for this, but you need to copy Ranger's animation2.cfg file to the Enforcer's folder to use him as a Slippy player. However, this is a VERY dodgy technique as these files are apparently going to have 3rd person anims in them come v1.0. Do so at your own risk.

*me hides

Copy what to what? The hell you say.

Download the file, unzip it, and it's ready to go as a Slipgate model, chief!

Indeed... I didn't have to copy anything to get it working as a Slippy model. You can use it as a Slippy model on the Euro server as well... but it doesn't work on Central... *shrug*

No need to copy ANYTHING. In fact, don't do it. Don't. Thanks.

It currently only works on pure servers, hence the Central-not-worky thing.

Correction: It currently only works on non-pure servers, hence the Central-not-worky thing. :thumb:

Ehr. quite.

/me withdraws and re-inserts foot in mouth.

stop performing illegal activities... or ruination will run wild on you.

;)

Ah, indeed. Just had a look at the contents of the .pk3. I stand corrected. :wall:

*me amputates leg and eats it

BTW What illegal activities? :huh:

i tink he mean's nicking the animation files.  would that work with Arachnatron?

The whole point is that animation files ARE in there.

And I guess it would work with the Arachnotron, yes. A construction much like this one may/will/might later be used for Resurgence.

I'm pretty sure it would work with any third-party model, in theory. Phoenix can correct me on this if I'm wrong, but I think the animation2.cfg system right now is a placeholder that currently just links certain models to specific classes, with future plans to have the animation2.cfg file handle individual stances to properly hold two gats, BFGs, etc.

From what I can tell, any model without at least a placeholder animation2.cfg file will not appear in Gen at the moment. I have the PMS model in my baseq3 folder, and Gen completely ignores its existance.

Correct, Makou.  Animation2.cfg is used right now to control which models can be called for a specific class.  It will also control additional player stances once we can include them.  I do try to plan ahead, as I've said before.

nice, you all know which model i'll be using for doom then now :D

BORROWING. Let's be clear on this. ;)

As I think Pho may have mentioned on another thread (if my memory serves me right, correct me if I'm wrong), third party models will need to have their own specific anim2.cfgs once these anims are coded in so this may only be a temporary setup.

So much for me trying to be clever ...

yup had a fiddle and well, it doesn't work  :(

anybody fancy showing me how i could fix this ?, as it would be cool to have the old spider brain back

Keep in mind that you will not be able to see, or even use, third-party models on the Central server. sv_pure being on prevents any "outside" PK3 files from being used as a method of cheat prevention.

yes any outside files, but if the file is on the server - it's deemed pure and clients can use it.

so any ideas?

What if a client does not have the given file? Remember pure server not only prohibits outside pk3's but doen't let the client join unless they have the server's pk3's as well.

Man, this thread's gone off on a tangent. :rolleyes: I thought it was supposed to be a Q3 PPM anyway. Besides, I only do the whole anim2 thing for a wider variety of bots to shoot when I'm not playing online. :evil:

I don't really see the problem/point myself.

I've made a pk3 that you can smack into your baseq3 dir. without any adjustments nescessary.
It will then:
a) work in Q3
b) work in Generations, for the Slipgate class
c) will (currently) not be visible on pure servers

That's all there is to it. No hacking, tweaking or discussing is needed or helpful here.. What's more interesting, and more on-topic is the following:
d) it has no real sounds yet, so again, if you feel up to the task, give it a go, and
e) there will be another release later, hopefully with the aforementioned sounds, but also with some modifications to the animations, where they still show some bugs.

I can knock up a botfile for it if you want.

Ehr, sure, that'd be nice :]

Well, here it is. He doesn't say much, but he's pretty nifty with the shaft:

great :]
it's comin' to life   :thumb:

Love the model, just didn't like some of the sounds (I know they are a placeholder).
Here is another placeholder users could use if they wish. More variety on the sounds (hits, deaths, new jump and falling ect), while still keeping the true Enforcer sounds.


Also here is how to do a half-assed fix for the swimming:
Open up the animation.qc and look for the:
// LEGS_SWIM line:
replace it with this:
192   10   10   15      // LEGS_SWIM

Botfilez yay!
Great model tabs, I'll try to find some time to whip up some sounds for this lad.

Update:  I can't find my microphone unfortunately.  Hopefully, I'll find it soon when I tear apart my room more fully.  Sorry about that Tabun.  I'm not sure what I'd be able to produce would have been worthwhile anyhow. :p  If I do come across it though, I'll DCC some kind of working demo for the sound pack to you in the IRC channel or something.

Excellent job as always Tab. Although, I always thought the zombies in Quake were supposed to be just like Ranger, but with beige-white uniforms and blood stains. Oh wait, now I remember there were some 'super zombies' that were bigger than the regular grunts- that must be what the enforcers were. Now that I remember that, it seems like you did a good job differenciating the enforcers from the regular grunts (although a grunt skin for the Ranger model would still be cool).


Ironically, Phoenix, that decision actually does a good job of combining the original Doom plasma rifle design with the Doom 64 plasma rifle design (which features lots of electric glowing stuff). It's funny cause I know you didn't like Doom 64 at all. Well, good job anyway.

And I have to agree, that other plasma rifle model looks totally wrong. The plasma rifle is an energy weapon, not an assault rifle. It feeds from battery cells, not NATO 5.56mm STANAG magazines. It clearly has no need for a bullpup configuration either since it doesn't work by normal projectile ballistics. The aimpoint looks like it ripped off of an airsoft P90 and glued on.

Actually I was partly inspired by a screenshot of the Doom 64 plasma rifle for showing off the plasma tubes.  Carnage had sent me screenshots of some of the weapons very early on in Gen's development process.  Let's just say the stills looked fantastic at the time.  It was when I loaded up an emulated version of Doom 64 quite a bit later that my very negative opinion of the game was actually formed.  The plasma rifle was also the first Doom model I actually completed, and my philosophy at the time was to show off the energy inside the guns since they looked a bit plain in the sprites.  This was partly in answer to the Arena plasma gun, and partly because, well, I like eye candy. ;)

I did pretty much the same thing to Ranger's shaft, and Grunt's BFG10K, but I kept a lot of the energy effects more sublime on the 10K.  Doom is all about raw power, Slipgate is function over form, and  Strogg is about style and finesse.  I think the models reflect those differences quite well and serve to differentiate each generation a bit better and gives them their own distinct feel, but that's just my opinion.  I know Tab's skin work certainly makes them stand out from each other, while at the same time unifying them as all fitting together in the same universe. :thumb:

Hmm, this is a bit off topic so I'll be short, but you might fancy taking a look at the Doom 64 TC for doom 2 if you weren't really satisfied with the emulated version. I've never actually played it on the n64, but the TC did surprise me with its quality. It's even got the backing of two of the original team members who worked on it, which can't be bad. Comes in opengl flavour with mouselook and all that jazz, doom2.wad required: http://www.doom2.net/~doomdepot/abs-download.html (http://www.doom2.net/~doomdepot/abs-download.html)

By the way, I do like the little changes on all the models you guys have come up with - I see no reason why they should be carbon copies of the originals when you have the chance to add your own unique flavour to them - otherwise where would be the fun? Apart from anything else though, alot of the original designs from Doom and especially Wolf are a bit to simplistic to just be transferred straight into 3d, so you guys are doing a cracking job at interpreting them.

Absolution SUCKS. That's about all I have to say about it.

What a great way to put it. maybe why I love slippy guns.  :ownage:

I finally played with the model , it looks sweet but still i think its a wee bit to flat .
sometime i think that the ranger model looks more detailed . but thats just me .

anyway , I made somekind of packet with , enemys of the old quake games (q4*hybrid , imp , arachnatron revanant ,etc..... ) and repacked them into a packet with animation2.cfg files in them so that they show up in generations arena .

now gen looks a wee bit sweeter again with the arachnatron firing green plasma , the q4gladiator shoting at ya and the grunts shooting nails at you . :thumb:

Define 'flat'.. (preferrably in words that are in everyone's dictionary, with the common understood meaning still applicable to them.. :))
It has about 2.5 times the amount of polies Ranger has, and it's far more rounded and even has pronounced pecs in its armor, a head modeled inside of the helmet and fully modeled legpads (which Ranger lacks). The skin on it is definately not blurry and has about 4 + 4 = 8 times the pixels Ranger's skin has.. I don't quite follow your meaning?

I am fixing some things however: the swim animation (id even borked this on the actual Doom model in their release.. might have to slap in a new animation.cfg for Doom too, while we're at it) - and the Axe animation, which is normally unused in Q3. I'm going to have the QForcer take a real swing with his axe :]

Er... careful with extra animations there.  For Gen purposes I'm planning on adding extra stances and animations, including axe swings, that will be controlled and parsed from animation2.cfg.  I don't have the order down yet, but all the Team Arena animation slots will be converted for this purpose - and renamed as well.  By all means, fix Doom's swimming though, I wasn't aware he had a bug!

I dunno tab , it looks flat like a cartoon .

and pho

what do you mean with Team arena animations slots , I never saw those guys do anyting special and they looked even stiffer then the original quake 3 charecters .

Ehr, the 'swing animation' isn't much more than the gauntlet attack transformed into a swing, rather than a punch, so I don't think that'll cause any problems. It looks cool as it is now..

I'll upload the fixed animation config file on the beta board.

so games keeper

any chance of posting the files with cfg'ed monsters

Games Keeper:  You don't see netcode either, but it's there right?

oh scalliano 1 thing . if you make a bot file , you can set the railguncolors other that purple and red .

just make your script like this .

{
name      qforcer
funname      "Enforcer"
model      qforcer
color1 1
color2 7
aifile   bots/qforcer_c.c
}

this wil give the bot a blue and white railguncolor ;)



ah well , here is a wee bit of a problem .
I dont have a site to upload it 2 and its actually a wee bit illegal what i just did since I altered other peoples work without asking permission . so at this moment I will keep this pk3 file for myself .


unless ofcours i only release the pk3 with animation2.cfg in it and no models in it .
but then I still need a place to upload it 2 .


list of current monsters and classes .
arachnatron => doom
imp => doom
revanant => doom
q4hybrid => strogg
q4gladiator => strogg
reaper => slipgate ( the axe is the closest thing that resembles a scyte and he fits the class ) .
misstres => ogether with slipgate  electricity whes 1 of her attacks in the games anyway . and it fits the gothic style of q1 .
magdalena +> wel this is 1 of the harder ones , I think strogg since he has that mechanicle advanced thingy about him , like the mutant in q2 only technical advanced like stroggs would do to creatures .
gargoyle => the hardest 1 for the moment , its a gargoyle so I would say klesk (doom )
but it doesnt look like a doom monster so I would say q3 .

( still need a bunch of earth monsters ) btw , since I only include the animation2.cfgs the packet will weight in a small couple of Kb .


 

any monster sombody thinks about that should be included pls tell me now ( still searching polycount for other models ).

also i got a problem that the arachnatron doesnt shoot green plasma but pink , this is easily fixed by adding a bot script for it with 2 lines more in it .
now the problem is that people who dont have the arachnatron model but would have my .pk3 will recieve an error in the console every time the computer tries to load up my bot and doenst find the model  .

Thanks, GK, except that Slippy doesn't have a RG ;) Nonetheless, attached is a .pk3 with said RG colours just to keep the "shaft" feel on the old RG in VQ3.

On the player model note, I use fs_basegame missionpack and have a little .pk3 that puts Pi and all the TA characters in Arena and Fritzkrieg as Earth. You need to have Team Arena for this to work, mind. Like I said before, I do this purely for playing offline.

yeah fritzkrieg

didn't think about him, but as a earth soldier. he's perfect

I have team arena and i did include fritzkrieg in earth and the rest in arena , problem is that fritz and pi dont have CTF skins :(

I could set you up with some basic recoloured ones that I have (I'm particularly proud of Pi's blue eye-laser), but that might be illegal. Anyone care to shed some light on this?

/me resurrects the topic.

Well, I finally found my microphone about two days ago or so.  I threw together some voicework stuff, but it's incomplete as of right now, because I want some feedback before going any further..

I tried to emulate the sound of whoever did the original wave files for the Enforcer, but my voice doesn't match up very well so I took some creative license.  I wasn't quite sure what you imagined the Enforcer to be saying with the taunt animation either Tabun, so I winged it and mimicked Ranger's taunt.  I can't match up the style of voice I did with the pain grunts with the taunt without sounding rediculously cheesy so I kind of went for a raspy, evil voice that says "Enforcer."  I imagine I could probably redo the pain grunts in a more raspy voice but not the other way around unfortunately.

needs a bit clearing up but sounds good

I actually garbled the sounds a bit on purpose to try and capture how the original files distorted the character's voice because his head is inside a helment.  I know that id didn't bother doing that with DOOM in Q3A so I can always change it. :)

Tabun you really did a good job on this one.
(http://img202.echo.cx/img202/6918/tabunskickassqforcer2ei.th.jpg) (http://img202.echo.cx/my.php?image=tabunskickassqforcer2ei.jpg)
(http://img202.echo.cx/img202/9126/shot27gc.th.jpg) (http://img202.echo.cx/my.php?image=shot27gc.jpg)

Belated thanks, mate. :]


Just for consistency's sake, here's the files that will run on the official Generations servers:

- The Q-Forcer player model
- ]The Q-Forcer player sounds
- The Q-Forcer bot files

(I've adapted OoPpEe's soundpack, adding that drown sound)

Tab, for some reason I'm not seeing the icons for Qforcer in the selection area when I use the Players menu for Slipgaters.

Edit:  I found out why.  PM incoming.

Thanks Pho!

Because of the swimming bug, this one and the mess of pk3s that was starting to grow, here's a complete pack. Credits are inside, but it's all you need. Consider this an official release.

Complete Q-Forcer Pack
Edit:
The pack still seems to have bugs that are hard to explain or pin down. I'll update when we have it figured out.

Since we're on two threads with this, the menu bug reared its ugly head again.  I sent Tab a PM, and hopefully we'll have this licked shortly.

Good news, boys and girls!

After a lot of cruddy 'releases', we've finally got something worth downloading. This time, it's really final. Heh. Well, you don't have to believe it. :]

My humble apologies for the trouble (and for some, for having to download this one thrice). Many thanks to Phoenix, who saved the say and tied up the loose ends.


If you already have the Q-Forcer, delete all files related to it. Download and install this:

Q-Forcer Complete Pack (http://www.tabun.nl/dl/tabun_qforcer_complete.zip)

Enforcer and Deathknight are haunting the Central server at present, so if any of you want to see how tough Quake's minions could have been, feel free to take them on - if you're prepared to be humbled.

Indeed it is.  I know the bots dropped when the server reset, but they're back on there as of the time of this post.  Have fun trying to frag them.  ;)

And they're not even in Nightmare mode...  :ownage:

Love the model!  Perhaps this is a post worthy of the Wirehead newspage? ^_^

It's been out for a while now, so I don't think it warrants a post by itself now. After the Guard is done, a newspost will be in order. :]

However, what would warrant a news post is adding both the Qforcer and the Team skinpack to the downloads links page so they're easier to find.  I'll try to remember to do that soon.