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http://news.com.com/FAQ+How+Real+ID+will+a..._3-5697111.html (http://news.com.com/FAQ+How+Real+ID+will+affect+you/2100-1028_3-5697111.html)

Slipped into an appropriations bill, passed without any debate.  Read the rest of the article for the details, but effective May of 2008 the US will have a national ID card, standards to be determined by Homeland Security.  For those who thought "Never in America!" well guess what, you were wrong.  Now open your freaking eyes!

"But if you don't get an ID, the terrorists will win!"

Maybe it is time to head for the hills? I'm ready, anyway.

As far as I'm concerned, when this kind of thing passes unchecked, undiscussed, and undisclosed, the terrorists have won already.

I'm sure one of the Euro's can answer this. Are the drivers license in other countries a 'national license' or are they issued by a province, county, etc?

They're national.

At least before ID cards were introduced in the UK there was an open public debate on the issue. Pho's right, the terrorists have won already. They won in Florida at the end of 2000 and they're still winning.

wtf have those to do with this .

Games:  Because the liberties Americans hold dear are being sacrificed in the name of security.  A national ID card tramples all over state's rights as well as individual liberties.  The US is becoming more and more federalized, more and more centralized as a result.  The consolidation of power into a central bureaucracy is exactly the kind of thing the founding fathers of the United States were afraid of.  They were more afraid of a tyrannical government at home stripping people of liberty than they were of foreign aggressors.  This is all in the Declaration of Independence.  This is also the primary reason the Second Amendment to the US Constitution exists, right after the First Amendment.  This wasn't by accident, they firmly believed that if the government of a country no longer defended the rights of the people then it ultimately fell to the people to ensure their own rights, by violence if necessary.  To repeat a very commonly quoted phrase:

"Those who give up essential liberties for temporary safety deserve neither
liberty nor safety. ~Benjamin Franklin."

That's exactly what people are doing.  This can only lead to more and more intrusion, monitoring, and surveilence of the common citizenry by a stronger and less tolerant federal government.  A police state is an intolerable solution to a very solvable problem, and that's exactly where this is inching towards.  Do not turn a blind eye to the policy of incrementalism.  Wild conspiracy theories I treat as suspect, but when you can see some very obviously questionable activities one can only ignore them at their own peril.  Here's some food for thought:

The US military is tied up in Iraq, and cannot LEAVE Iraq as long as attacks continue.   The attacks continue daily, whereas the country should have been disarmed of insurgents by now.  The borders with Iran and Syria are left wide open, so the fight continues without end.  If the US pulls out of Iraq, a civil war will result as Iranian-backed Shi'ite guerillas clash with Sunni Baath party loyalists.  Iraq will then destabilize the entire region and eventually become another Iran-style Islamic puppet regime.  Is this blatant incompetence by the Defense Department, or by design?

California is trying to pass legislation that would make it impossible to own ammunition that is not "micro-serialized" - a technology that doesn't even yet exist.  If passed, after a few years it would be illegal to even possess such ammunition within the state. (For the anti-gunners out there who can't see the significance of this, I'll tie this together in just a second).

The US border with Mexico is wide open.  Where's Homeland Security on this?  If terrorism's such the huge threat that it is, why leave the borders open?

In the last 20 years, nearly all US manufacturing jobs have been transferred offshore.  The US is no longer an industrial nation, it is a consumer nation with a service-based economy.  The US no longer has the ability to out-manufacture an enemy in a full-scale war like it did in WWII.

The US currency continues to devalue against foreign currency, especially the Euro.

The increasing amount of US reliance on electronics makes it particularly vulnerable to EMP attacks.  Concern has recently been raised by a US Congressman about the possibility of Iran, North Korea, or any other rogue state possessing a nuclear device detonating an airburst 200 miles above the North American continent.  According to nuclear scientists advising this individual (I don't have his name handy) this would put the US back into the 1900's technologically.  To compound this threat, Iran has supposedly testfired a missile that "failed" by exploding 200 miles up.  Was it really a failure?  Also of concern is a North Korean SCUD missile capable of carrying a nuclear warhead can be purchased for as little as $100,000, and launched from a cargo ship offshore of the continental US.  This information follows a claim that Iran has reportedly said it wants to take out the US with a single nuclear device.  Where's Homeland Security on this threat?  If such a nightmare scenario were to occur, the US would be completely defenseless.  Any foreign power could launch a full-scale invasion along the California coast and meet little or no resistance, thanks to all the nice happy anti-gunners out there outlawing everything.  If the military is knocked out electronically, then what's left but the citizenry, and if the citizenry has no will or means to fight, then they are conquered.  Such an invasion isn't even necessary if an EMP were used.  How long do you think the population will survive without automobiles, large trucks to ship food, and electricity to refrigerate it?  No running water, no heat or cooling, no food... I think you can figure the rest out from there.

Now granted, this is a lot of "worst case" stuff, but if I can think of it you know the enemies of the US can, and surely people within the US government can as well.  Why is it then that instead of locking down the borders and taking a zero tolerance stance against Iran and North Korea that, in the event of any nuclear strike on the US, they will suffer full nuclear retaliation regardless of the aggressor, that the US government is choosing to frisk 80 year old wheel-chair bound women at airports, and pass legislation that would require every citizen to submit to a Big Brother-ish computerized identification system?  As far as I can tell the leaders within the US Government do not have the country's best interests anywhere at all at heart.  I'm not talking about Bush specifically, I'm speaking in a more broader sense.  This is not just one politician or figurehead to blame for this.  As far as I can tell the United States is being sold down the river by all parties involved - its European allies, its government officials, and its corporate entities.  From inside and from without, this country is being stripped of everything that made it strong.  The degree to which it's being allowed to happen I can't believe is just coincidental and accidental, not at this point.

Now according to prophecy, the US doesn't figure into events at the end time.  Russia does, Israel certainly does, as does Europe, the Orient - China especially, and the Arabs, specifically Persia (Iran), Egypt, Lybia, Syria, but nowhere is the United States found as a major player on the board.  I'm watching this country being sold down the river right before my eyes - economically, militarily, morally, politically, and I can't help but think I'm seeing the reasoning for this obvious absense as a result of this.  It should be remembered that Rome fell not because it was conquered, but because it was gutted from the inside first.  The barbarian hordes only helped bring down what was left after the foundation had already crumbled.  Tell me, am I seeing the same thing here?  Is history repeating itself yet again?  Nobody can dispute the fact that Europe is becoming the central focus of the world, and the US is becoming seen more and more as a burden and an obstruction to a lot of nations, bankers, and corporate interests, and instead of being a light to the world, a shining example of liberty, liberty is being stripped from her people by her own leaders in the name of "security", a false security that protects nothing and endangers everything.  Who has America's best interests in mind anymore?  Anyone?  America has turned its back on God as well, so not even God is left to look after her.  Who's left then?

The goal of the Islamic terrorists is twofold - first to remove the US since it is Israel's military and financial backer, and second to remove Israel since it's part of their Jihad.  The US is seen by the terrorists as the Great Satan, owing to its lack of morals by their standards and it's support of their sworn enemy.  If the US becomes a police state by stripping her people of liberty, the terrorists have won.  If the US implodes from the world economies shifting away from the US, the terrorists have won.  If the US suffers a catastrophic strike because the leadership has their heads up their asses or (God forbid) by some deliberate participation on their part they enable such a strike to go unchecked, the terrorists again have won.  The only path to victory is to remain strong and free, and neither seem to be the current goal of those in power.  Regardless of what may happen, or what is probably going to happen, just consider how things are right now.  When people live in fear but are powerless to act, and their leadership fails them or betrays them, then their enemies have surely won.

So you see Games, terrorism has everything to do with this.  It makes a very nice excuse to get away with things you never could otherwise.

Why would you say that Pho? I don't think that is entirely true.

a) Not EVERYONE has turned their back on God

b) I was under the impression that God's love was boundless even when it came to a bunch of assholes crucifiing his son?

Tell me I'm wrong here. Tell me that God's love is not unconditional. Tell me that just because a few morons out there who are screwing it up for everyone else is the reason that God is going to turn his back on this nation. Tell me.

Oh I never said God abandoned Americans, but to those who are given much, much is expected in return.  America has been blessed with wealth and power much of the rest of the world cannot imagine.  With that comes great responsibility as well.  If the country is turning away, it's not God's fault.  Parents who love their children also crack their asses from time to time when they get out of step, and sometimes disobedient children just can't be stopped from hurting themselves.  It doesn't mean God loves Americans less, but he does allow people freedom of choice - and the consequences of those choices.  What you sow, you also reap.  Right now what I'm seeing sown is a lot of trouble down the road ahead, no matter how you look at it.  I'm not concerned with God's actions in this, but the actions of men.

indeed

It keeps getting better and better[/sarcasm]:
http://www.local6.com/news/4479554/detail.html (http://www.local6.com/news/4479554/detail.html)

How Orwellian.

They say the eyes are the gateway to the soul.

You have to forgive me, your statement was so broad, I didn't realize you were being so specific.

/me sighs -_-
And if this nations falls, I won't stick around to see.  Just gonna get the hell outta dodge.

ugh, reminds me of demolition man movie where the guy rips out someones eyes to gain access to some place...

really am not a huge fan of biologically dependant security.. can lead to people getting some very nasty ideas.

Try telling IBM that :P

Where do you intend to go, Foot?  How do you intend to get there?

Edit:  

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050513/D.../D8A2C2N01.html (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050513/D8A2C2N01.html)
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20050513...22032-5055r.htm (http://www.washtimes.com/national/20050513-122032-5055r.htm)

People should be shot for treason over this sort of thing!  This is intolerable!  :wall:

If the government trys to take your rights then your allowed to overthrow them cause the constitution says so and those rights are unaliegnable rights giving by god that no sporking government can take. We may in the future need to fight to the death for our rights, and the rest of the world will see the atrocitiies. Or even worse if kids arent being taught about the constitution or bill or rights and being taught to accept protection over freedom then there will be no-one with a fightning spirit when the time comes. I was watching this document about the ss on history channel and a halocaust survivor said no-one should give blind obedience to a leader and that still applies today, well we see alot of people supporting the war efforts today blindly and history will repeat itself . :)  But I will not allow myself to be put in a concentration camp and be put through that humiliation. I will die fightning before anything like that happens to me. :evil:

Simmer down there Che, it isn't going to come to that quite yet. Everyone will nuke each other before we have to rebel against our own Government.

In a manner of speaking, but I do not forsee a full-scale nuclear war as being a serious concern.  If any nuclear weapons are used they will be used in a tactical capacity.  The big nuclear powers like China and Russia tend to know the effects of large-scale use of nuclear weapons, and any large-scale ICBM launch would be instantly countered by a US ICBM launch.   Countries like that are not to keen on getting themselves blown off the map.  No, the danger is some pissant dictatorship setting off one or two "for the glory of Allah" or whatever reason they use to justify it.  A short-range surprise with no clear retaliatory objective is a much more dangerous concern.

Actually, I was implying that I'll probably be dead first. :shifty:

My philosophy is to hope for the best, expect the worst, and prepare for what you can.  I know a lot of people want to "just live their lives", but what exactly is life for?  How you answer that question is what determines how you'll react to unforseen and difficult events.  Personally I can't see a time in human history where people could "just live their lives".  People have been conquered, uprooted, starved, enslaved, suffered plagues, etc, all throughout history.  Normalcy, to me, is an illusion.  Conflict, chaos, change is the only thing certain.  Peace is ever sought but rarely obtained.  I wish that it were otherwise, but what is, is.  I hope and pray nothing will come of all this, but time will tell.  I'm just here to make people aware of what could happen so they at least have a chance to act should they choose to.

I think there's a lot of sense in the theories about strife and struggle being the biggest motivators behind human evolution - as long as there is hope for an equilibrium; balance and peace, things will be kept in motion through disorder. In the big picture, that would mean that to 'just live your life' would be a waste, and an indication of a sense of hopelessness.
If that peace would ever be achieved, I wonder if it would be a good thing, and if it would last.

In the case of real distress, I guess there is only one real answer to 'what life is for': Life is for living. ;]

What about problem-solution reaction, they bring order out of chaos even if they themselves have created it. Why on earth would a terrorist worry about getting a id card thats balogna, they just want to expand their citizen watch squads power over the average public. Why do we need a homeland security we already have navy, national guards, police, and anything else i havent mentioned. Either way if a serious terrorist wanted to strike homeland security or not they will do it, but having our government monitor the public watching for people that dont agree with them isnt gonna solve anything.  :(