Wirehead Studios

I've been trying to do a little research for a friend on the pros and cons on processors and can't come up with a good answer for him. He had asked me which one would be better because he had a choise of which one he wanted? He will be using the computer for making labels, charts and formula books. (Genesis, Quicken, Word, Excel....) Would it really matter which one? I didn't want to tell him one and have it not work well for his needs... Any advice would be great.
 :thumb:

AMD , why 64 bit and cheaper then Intel crap , and yes intel has a 64 bit processor but it looks similar to the one of amd . actually it look so similar that they even have the same options under another name .
says a lot about intel I think .

Athlon 64 all the way.  Intel CPU's are overpriced and underperform for the clock speeds they run at.  To give you a good example of what a low end Athlon 64 can do, I recently built a system with the following specs:

Athlon 64 2800+ 1.8 GHz 64 bit CPU 512K Cache
Asus K8S-MX (onboard video)
Corsair Value Select  PC3200 DDR 1 GB
Seagate 80GB SATA 7200RPM HD

This system ran Quake 2 in SOFTWARE mode at 1024x768 and got 100 frames per second.  The CPU also runs extremely cool, I have a Thermaltake Silent Boost K8 on it and it never got above 32C, even under load.

This system is a "budget line" computer that cost under $500 to build, including case, power supply, etc, but at the same time I used only high quality parts - Asus motherboard, Corsair memory, etc.  The PSU in the case is Enermax's budget line, which I've used before with zero problems.  The only thing lacking is the video, S3's onboard is decent for everyday use but you can forget OpenGL or any hardcore 3D gaming, but the enduser wasn't interested in that at the time.  They can always add an AGP 8X graphics card later.   Here's the component prices at the time I purchased the parts:

CPU:  $109.00
Motherboard:  $76.00
Case + 350 Watt PSU:  $32.49
CPU HSF:  $28.00
RAM:  $91.00 (Yes, for 1 GB of CORSAIR)
Hard Drive:  $70.00
DVD-ROM:  $25.50
SATA power adapter:  $6.41
Floppy:  $0.00 (Had a spare laying around)
Case Fans:  $3.87
Shipping:  $28.46

Total:  $470.73

Funny, isn't that about what you'd pay for a Dell with a Celeron processor? ;)

Now for high-end, Intel does have a 64 bit CPU now, the 6xx series, and their "flagship" 64 bit CPU - the 3.6 GHz 660 - performs on-par with the Athlon 64 4000+ and costs around $610.  The cheapest model - the 630, runs around $225.  Compare that to the Athlon 64 4000+ which runs at 2.4GHz and costs $485.  Equal performance at a lower clock speed, and $125 cheaper?  That's for high-end without even going to the FX line, which pretty much blows everything else out of the water if you have the cash for it.  Low end you'll pay right now $112 for an Athlon 64 2800+ 1.8GHz chip, same one I used.  That's a bit less than $225...

If cost is a concern, you simply cannot build a 64 bit Intel system as cheap as you can an Athlon 64 and still maintain some semblence of component quality, and if you want high end you're still going to have to pay a few hundred dollars more.

I checked your entire post for a good video card bird, but could not seem to locate one.

In that case: Radeon 700x pro PCI express 256mg = $200

Almost forgot about a good sound card!

Creative Audigy 2 LZ = $64

I think you will find that your computer will havebetter gaming performance after you add those to your AMD 64 bit machine.

Seriously though, AMD 64 kicks suffient ass and I stand by it as much as much as I stand behind D-Link.

I never said it was good video, I'm just stating what I built. :)

Would it be possible for you to tell me exactly what parts you used? I intend to biuld a new PC this summer, and need advice from someone (I've been wondering about 64) on the best bits.

I will probubly use an ATI card, like last time. :thumb:

The only thing P4's do better than an AMD chip is media encoding.

$112 bucks for a 1.8Ghz CPU, what, about ?80? Damn, that's cheap.

One question I have: I was planning on upgrading my CPU later in the year. My current system is running with an 32bit 800Mhz Athlon. Could I get away with installing the above, or am I limited to a 32bit CPU until I get my arse a new PC?

Cool, thanks. He's gonna go for the AMD.



OMG :!:  I won't even go into what I paid for my Dell! Though it may have been to much, I'm still happy with it. The HP I had before this one... What a piece of crap.(sorry if that offends anyone)

But anyhow thanks for the enlightenment. :thumb:  :rules:  :thumb:

"Good" and "only major manufacturer on the market because we killed the competition with bullshit marketing" are not the same thing.

I have an audigy 2, and it's a steaming pile of crap. Ironically, this is Audigy2 #2 because the first one was DoA out of a retail box. I'm currently using the nforce2 onboard audio with half the cpu spiking and none of the sound mangling inherent in Creative Lab's cards.

And yes, without going in to to many specifics I can say the AMD will outperform the intel in 90% of all applications with almost half the cost.

Something I devinly argree upon.

I wish I get customers in the store like you guys, you sporking know what your talking about. Half the people come in there looking for the cheapest computer which usually ends up being a Celeron based E-machine and when the said purchase makes them grab their ankles, they yell at me when I specifically tell them, put out the extra dough for an AMD. But nooooooooooooo!

Best Buy is the bottom feeder capital of the world, especially in Tracy.

BTW Angst, the reason your creative card is giving you shit is because your mother board probably sucks balls. No offense.

onyl problem I have with audigy 2 ZX is that in doom3 if I anable surroundsound , the sound sometimes drops out , I even binded a buton now that restarts my sound in doom 3 .
but thats the only problem I ever had with the card .

and the sound is really clear now . I'm even considering 1 of those cards for my laptop .

The parts I used are for a bargain-level system.  If you're looking for something to game on you'll probably want a different motherboard, although I don't see why a gamer couldn't just slap a high-end AGP8X video card into the AGP slot on this one, you'd probably be better off with a chipset that's better suited for the demands of gaming.  I'd also want something with more PCI slots as well for future peripheral expansion.

I can make recomendations on any components but I'd have to know your budget first and you're also in Europe I believe, so pricing and availability are going to be way different than here.  I know NewEgg (My preferred online vendor) doesn't ship internationally either, so if you want price comparisons I'd need a good vendor that will ship to wherever you're located.  A link would be most helpful, and it would probably be easier to do it via PM's instead of a running chat thread.  If the vendor displays prices only in Euros instead of Euros and dollars it would be helpful to know the current exchange rate as well.

Also keep in mind your upgrade path. You want to make sure you get a computer that you'll be able to upgrade piecemeal over the next couple of years instead of having to go all-out every six months. My current machine is pretty much an updgrade dead-end. There's not much else I can do with it, given the current PC market.

Currently the best upgrade path is on the Athlon socket 939 motherboards that support SATA and PCI-Express. The next-gen video cards will probably be PCI-E only on the mid- and upper-end cards, with the lower-end cards supporting AGP, in exactly the same way current-gen cards support AGP on the good stuff and PCI on the bottom.

And harddrives are shifting to SATA from IDE right now too, in much the same fashion.

Aye, I wish the good PCI-E boards also incorporated an AGP8X slot.  What I want to build would cost me $800+, and I just can't justify the expense even if I did have the funds for it.

Yup, same here.

MSI has a really, really nice PCI-E board for the socket 939 Athlon 64's. If I had my way I'd buy myself one of those, a new CPU, RAM, case/power supply, and video card.

But I don't have the money. =(

I'd prefer This Board (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813131517) myself.

Right thanks lads. I normally buy from www.cclonline.com. these guys have been good so far, and are just up the road (about 12 miles) price range? about ?750. please feel free to email me to let me know what you think. :thumb:

I'm using an asus a7n8x-e deluxe, I don't think it's the mobo.

Shambler:  I sent you a PM requesting some additional info.  Just a heads up incase you have pop-ups blocked and don't see it you can check your message indicator up at the top of the page.

Thanks, I'll have to check it out when I get home. the school computers don't let me do much.

Bump - Sent another message your way, incase the popup window doesn't work again.

Bump.

Thanks. I did send you a message back with details, but haven't done anything since.

Just sent a new mesage. Thanks Pho.  :smirk:

I've sent you a message with all the info requested.

Bump again because everyone keeps replying to the other threads.

And again...

With an 800MHz Athlon, you likely have one of the older Athlon cores, meaning you have an older Athlon board, which will likely not support even a newer 32-bit Athlon processor, let alone a 64-bit Athlon.  Your memory is also likely either PC133 or PC2100, which won't work with anything much better than what you've got

At this point, I'd just suggest saving up and getting a new 64-bit setup (CPU, mobo, memory, and PSU)... you should be able to salvage your current sound card or use on-board audio, as well as your current hard drives and optical drives.  If your video card is at least AGP4X, you should be able to use that too, just make sure you get a board that has an AGP4X/8X slot (I'd recommend looking for one that has both AGP and PCI-E, for future upgrades).  If you're not too concerned about pinching pennies at this point though, I think the better path would be to just build a new system from scratch, so you don't have to worry about any older bits crapping out on you, or just slowing down the system in general.

P.S.: The reason I recommend a power supply in the upgrade is because older power supplies generally don't put out adequate power for newer CPUs, as well as everything else.  Also, a new (enermax, antec, or PCPC) power supply ensures you have smooth, clean power for all the components, as opposed to "noisy" power that you sometimes get with aging supplies.

I've already PM'd him a bunch of specs on a prospective system, which covers just about everything mentioned.  Regarding the PCI-E and AGP... I'm not aware of any boards that support PCI-E x16 and also have an AGP slot.  I've only seen one board so far that has a PCI-E and an AGP slot has a single 1X PCI-E slot, and that was an Asus board with a Silicon Graphics chipset with onboard video.  I'm not aware of any dual-solution chipsets.

My problem is that while I sent him the PM I just don't know if he'll see the popup window, which is why I keep bumping this thread so it'll appear on the main page as "last updated."  Unfortunately everyone keeps replying to the other threads on this board so it keeps getting shoved down again, and I have to keep bumping it again.

Hey thanks again for all the info. :thumb:  I had no idea soo much went into choosing a processor.

My friend just got his computer yesterday and he went with the AMD. That thing humms!!! And he paid alot less than what I did.  :wall: Oh well. Anyhow, thanks again. :thumb:

as an Athlon user, I had nothing but constant problems with my old XP 1800+ on account of using an overloaded power supply. I had every expansion slot full, two hard drives, and a collection of case fans (anyone familiar with the old Coolerguys Cyclone 5000? 230+ CFM airflow!) that would cause my machine to "black out" (it runs the fans, but the safety feature in the power supply cuts off power to everything else to prevent damage from the overload, it's an ATX 1.4 feature I believe).

I continue to run a gig of 2100 speed ram in my Barton 2500+ machine because well... I don't have the money to fork over on upgrades anymore. I'm not really a PC gamer anymore and only play mostly older games anyway, so I don't really give two shits about the bottleneck it produces.

the power supply that I replaced my old BBQed 300 watt unit with is a 460 watt Enermax. ALL of my problems with my 1800 setup disappeared completely with this replacement, which goes to show it's not just the CPU, the RAM or the ATA interface that matters, but the friggin power supply matters with performance as well! :)

I prefer Enermax, myself, but my dad and my uncle are running Antecs and they haven't had any problems with theirs. I'd stray away entirely from using any power supply that comes bundled with a case, if anything, delete the option to cut down on the price of the case and buy your own unit instead. be forewarned, that if you get into the 400+ watt territory, you'll get more like a server grade power supply with a SHITLOAD of power leads, so there will be a jungle of power cables for you to tie up or stuff somewhere else in the case to prevent airflow intrusion. I say to get as much wattage as you can afford -- it only uses up as much power as your devices plugged into it demand (it won't run your electric bill up) and in the case of higher end hardware, you're better safe than sorry, especially with these new damn nVidia cards that I think REQUIRE you have a 500 watt power supply in order to use them.

sheesh.

Crap..  I was half-asleep when I wrote that.  My PM was to shambler, not scalliano.  Sorry about the confusion!  :wtf:

I don't think any nVidia boards require a 500watt PSU.  I think a 400 is recommended or something like that.  Now if you SLI two 6800Ultras... that's another story.  I'd really do some serious research on the wattage requirements if anyone's insane enough to do that (and has that much money to throw away).  What's more important than raw wattage is maximum deliverable Amperes on each rail.  If you have a 425 watt PSU that can only put out 10 amps on the 12 volt rail, you might as well use it as a rifle target.  Higher amps per rail is always better, but how it's divided is also important.  Having all of it dumped to the 12 volt rail would be great for peripherals, but lousy for the CPU which needs it on the 3.3.  When comparing brands and models within the same wattage ratings.  Here's an example of what you might see:

These are the specs off my power supply.  Note the max output is 431W, even though it's a 460Watt PSU.  There's a reason for this, and it's not false advertising (though it would seem so) and every power supply manufacturer on the market does this.  What you want to do is look at your amps per rail and combined wattage and match them to your needs.

Some PSU's have dual 12 volt rails, some have a single 12 volt rail.  Some argue dual-rail PSU's are better because the current load is split between the mainboard connector and the peripheral connectors, reducing electrical noise and maintaining a cleaner power signal to the mainboard/CPU by isolating peripherals on the other rail.  I've also heard it argued that dual-rail PSU's exist because it's cheaper to manufacture a two-rail PSU than a single-rail, high-wattage PSU.  A single-rail's advantage is that it allows all devices to draw from a pooled supply.  Either way, the best power supplies out there will have a very large current capacity on all the important voltage levels (5v, 12v, 3.3v) and will have a lot of open space for airflow.  PSU's with larger fans are preferred, and dual-fan PSU's are nice not in that airflow is really increased but rather that if one fan stops the other will continue to ventilate the unit.  Of course there are other bells and whistles to consider, but they're useless unless the unit can keep up with current load of the devices.  Stability should always be the number one consideration of any power supply, with "nifty features" and price coming in well after that factor.  You can have $1000 in quality components and skimp on a $20 power supply trying to feed it and you'll sit there wondering why your system keeps crashing all the time.  It's like towing a 53 foot long semi trailer with a Yugo, why would you do that?  Why do the same with your PC?

Most power supplies that come with cases are really low-end like mecha said.  I've seen some Enermax cases that come with Enermax power supplies (big surprise, considering they made the case), and there are some Antec ones out there I believe but those are the only bundled ones I've seen that are any good.  Enermax is the best manufacturer from what I've seen, with Antec running a very close second.  Now I've seen articles rating Antec a lot higher than Enermax based solely on combined wattage output.  I have a problem with that, as combined output should not be the only factor in determining quality.  I'm using a 460 watt Enermax in my system, and my voltage levels have zero fluctuation when viewed in realtime on my monitoring software, even if I kick all of my fans to full throttle, whereas I've seen the most expensive Antec models on the market that have the same ripple as a 400Watt CodeGen that came with my old Noblesse case.  One of those fans of mine is a 119CFM Tornado that draws 12 watts of power, as well as three additional 50CFM Sunons and various other fans and blowers.  This was NOT a cheap power supply, I paid $100 for it new several years ago.  However, I've only paid for it once, and I have no stability problems whatsoever (so long as I don't do something stupid like overclock my video card but that's not a power issue).  Stability is not something that's achieved just through high wattage/amperage ratings.  Component grade really comes into play here.  If you've ever seen or built a bridge rectifier you'll know what I'm talking about when I use the term "ripple".  The less ripple the better, and to get a really clean DC signal the rectifier has to have beefy filter capacitors on it.  The bigger the better when it comes to filter caps.  For those who don't know what a rectifier is, it's what converts AC from the wall into DC for the computer to actually use.  The bridge rectifier is the heart of any power supply.  Basically you want a beefy transformer coil and beefy caps on the rectifier.  That's what will give you clean, stable power flow.

Another thing to consider is the whole "how much do you really need" or "can you have too much power" arguments.  The short answer is "No".  Remember that the closer you run an electrical device to its maximum, the more it's going to be stressed and the more it's going to heat up.  You always want some breathing room.  It's no different from redlining an engine.  You can baby a car and make it last, or burn it up in a year's time.  Same with a power supply.  If you can maintain a 20% or better ceiling from your actual load you're in good shape, and the power supply should be adequate for your needs.  If you try to max out an underpowered supply you can expect to run into the problems mecha did, along with such fun things as random reboots, boot failures, blue screens... need I go on?

Now in Europe the branding is different, so some stuff may not be available there.  I know when I was putting spec recommendations together for shambler his preferred vendor doesn't sell a lot of stuff you can find in the US, and there's a lot of stuff there that doesn't exist in the US.  It makes it a trickier game recommending the best components![/color]

Another premium brand (I believe the best of the best) is PC Power & Cooling (http://www.pcpowercooling.com/home/) - however, I'm not sure the premium price is entirely worth the premium quality.  I do know that they last forever though, have very smooth output, and pack the current where it counts (Kenny is on his third PCPC supply, after frying the first with some insane tweaks, then outgrowing the second).

Similar to what Pho said, you can't have "too much" when it comes to a power supply.  If you've got the money to get a 700W power supply, heh... go for it - the reason being that when you aren't stressing a power supply, less of the electricity drawn is dispersed as heat (note Pho's reference to redlining a PSU).  Therefore a 500W PSU powering 380W worth of components will actually be a tad friendlier to your electric bill than a 400W PSU powering the same setup.  How much efficiency this translates to I'm not sure, but it does make a difference - I've seen it :o

been away, just got back. will read all later thanks Pho.