Wirehead Studios

I love Generations, and I've logged hundreds of hours on it, but I'm really sorry the Slipgater's Super Nailgun isn't better.  It was such a badass weapon in Quake, but it might as well not even be in G:A.  I watched a demo of a game on DM12, Slipgaters vs. Strogg teams, and the SNG practically never got used.  Tabun, the player the demo was following got 1 frag with it, by accident, when he ran out of ammo for another weapon and it switched to the SNG.  I didn't see Tabun ever get an intentional frag with the SNG, but I did see him...

--run out of ammo for ev,erything except the SNG, switch to the axe, and kill someone.
--use the SNG to shoot open a door, which completely exhausted the starting ammo
--run into the plasma gun room, see the SNG, and run back out.
--discharge his shaft into the water rather than use his only other weapon, the SNG.
--use the NG while quaded, not getting any kills
--use the double shotgun even though he had the SNG and 200 nails
--run away from a player with a machinegun because he only had an SNG.

From the demo, Tabun looked like an incredible player, tipping the odds in favor of whoever's team he was on..  If even he doesn't want to use the SNG, I think it should be changed.  Maybe the speed of the nails should be upped, or maybe it should come with more ammo.  It wouldn't unbalance the Slipgater class unless it was better than the RL or the shaft, which it wouldn't be.   I just think it's too bad that what was such an awesome weapon in Q1 gets so little use in Generations.   :(

The Nailgun and Super Nailgun in GenArena are actually identical to how they are in Quake 1 with two exceptions: The weapon models are different, because we can't just rip models from other games, and the nails are bigger, by player request because they were apparently too hard to see at the proper size. Speed, refire rate, and damage are all identical to Quake 1.

I've played my share of Q1 deathmatch; I practically grew up playing QuakeWorld. To say that the SNG was a "badass weapon" isn't quite right -- since I started playing the game, I've rarely, if ever, seen people use it unless they absolutely had to.

That said, the weapon is perfectly fine as-is. I get plenty of intentional kills with it, while other people will use nothing but the RL and GL regardless of the situation they're in. The Nailguns are, as a whole, weak-sauce weapons that are rather difficult to kill with, which is why they're rarely used.

Both the NG and SNG are fine as they are. What you witnessed Tabun doing in that demo was not, I think, Tabun ignoring the weapon, but rather exhibiting something called "strategy," or just wanting to be a jerk to that player he axe-murdered. :)

I use the SNG a bit. Watch Phoenix' demos from the Slipgate Lithium game. It's in the .99f demo thread somewhere. The camera isn't always pointed towards me, but it does catch me getting kills with the SNG. When I have rockets, I never use the SNG unless I'm turning a corner (demo02 shows this off extremely well, as I get 2 kills with it by doing this), so I don't blow myself up. If I have the shaft, the SNG will rarely get used because the shaft is better in all categories.

I'm not the best Gen player around, by far, but I switch weapons a lot during a fight. And yes, the SNG is one of those weapons I switch to on occasion. Sometimes people don't expect it.. and some other times it's good for spamming a hallway. But it's not the best means of killing... and it never was. :)

It was a badass weapon in single player Quake, but as far as Quakeworld multiplayer 90% of all kills are rocket launcher, and 9% are Thunderbolt.  The other 1% consists of "whatever someone got lucky with".

I've gotten plenty of SNG kills, and several standard nailgun kills in Gen, and I've seen other players get their share of SNG kills.  Judging a weapon's effectiveness or lack thereof by watching exactly one player in exactly one demo is not a very thorough approach for criticism.  If you'd like a demonstration of SNG killing I'll be more than happy to provide one.

I understand what you guys are saying.  To be honest, the main reason I wish I could use the SNG more was that I like the new model   :)   You're certainly right that QW was never all about the Nailgun, and I suppose I would prefer to have the class authentic.  I guess it's time for me to buckle down and get good with the RL...
 :ownage:

I really like using the SNG, but I always run out of Nails in a second, it seems. Wouldn't it be possible to increase the Nails-per-box or maximum Nails? Maybe people will use the weapon more then, I would.

We've tossed around item quantity questions before.  Currently the nailer gets ammo from three sources - 25 from machinegun boxes, 50 from plasma and railgun slugs.  Those were the small and large nail box quantities from Quake, and all are usually abundant.  It's just that the SNG eats ammo like popcorn, just like the Quake manual says. ;)

I think the biggest problem with weapons like the nailers is a need for practice.  They are not easy weapons to use, just like the Q2 hyperblaster, but the SNG, like the hyper, can be lethal so long as you can make the projectiles connect.  I've upload a demo where I hand a Skill 4 Ranger bot his ass on a silver platter on Q3DM1 using only nailers.  I got one axe kill when I ran out, and I did use the rocket launcher for some minor suppressing fire, but take a look.

http://www.wireheadstudios.org/generations...emos/sng1.dm_68 (http://www.wireheadstudios.org/generations/demos/sng1.dm_68)

Pho also forgot to mention that those using basic machineguns drop them fully loaded (30 nails, I believe)... as does a Doomer using the chainsaw.

Granted that involves killing someone, but it's still a source of ammo. And, at times, a slippy backpack can be a blessing.

You got to hate timezones (or sleep.. or .. whatever), delayed response follows:

Let me clarify a few things in regards to the demo that is somehow incorrectly regarded and presented as some kind of proof here:

- My playing style varies practically from day to day. Some days I will avoid using grenades, some days I'll stick to rail only - others I won't touch nails or plasma. You can't take a single demo and present it as either an unchanging style of play, or a proof of arsenal-choice.

- If I shoot a door to open, I fire one nail. If I'm shooting more than that, I'm probably anticipating someone to run through it in a hurry :p
- When I'm running away, this has more to do with respawning items or health than with the actual weapons available, especially if I still have nails.

- I very often switch to fists/axe/gauntlet even when I don't have to, just like I do a good discharge in the water when I can - for fun, because that's the real reason I (and everyone) should be making those choices for :]

- Even when I'm trying to kick as much ass as possible, I prefer shotguns. Hitscan weapons allow me to keep more in control of the situation, and they just feel nice to play with - this is a personal preference.

- My general aggressive-defensive/fast paced style of play allows for relatively few moments where delayed suppressive fire is useful. That would exactly be the times that I recommend the use of flamer, SNG, hyper etc.

- And finally, everyone keeps gabbing about how good I am, but let's be realistic here: I'm not a supergamer, I happen to be an amateur too. I make mistakes, I have off-days (probably while that demo was recorded, by the sound of it ;)) and, most importantly, just like everybody else,  I have strong and weak points in the arena; I suck with some weapons, and kick ass with others. Although I use my nails better than some others, this is generally one of my weak spots.

Even so, there is only one person on the planet who knows what I want, and that's me :]
And I want to use the SNG, because it's cool. Don't be fooled by what you see every now and then.

Yes, time zones suck.

Basically, what Pho said. I personally found that the only time Q1 nails seemed to move any faster was in standard SP Q1. Even in QW I thought they were a bit slow. That said, it was probably more down to having slower targets to shoot in SP.

Maybe its time wew had a nailgun only match. that would get everyone using it. It might mean a new map or something.....

Shambler:  Check my demo out.  :ninja:

Awesome demo, lol... 10 to 3. I tried the same thing and won 10 to 8. Nailguns only is pretty harsh on my play style, lol.

That looked so cool Pho, I had to hop the bandwagon (and to help remove any doubts about me wanting to use the gun :)) - I think Ranger was acting a bit dumber than usual though, he killed himself twice and ended up with -1 -- lasted about 3 minutes :]

http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/tab_supernailgun.zip (http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/tab_supernailgun.zip)

Even so, I personally wouldn't mind seeing the pickup ammo for the SNG upped from 30 to 50.

... i'm all for raising to 50 too :) ...

I find that I'm either chronically short on nailgun ammo, or I am carrying a full backpack.  Very rarely do I have 'enough' without being overloaded.

I'd honestly raise the pickup to 50, but drop the ammo boxes to 30.

Well ammo in q1 respawned at a MUCH faster rate than it does in q3... so if someone picks up all the ammo, you're just stuck with the 30 from the pickup.

That's exactly what both Pho's and my demo confirm. Ammo is relatively hard to get, so the expected value/quantity is higher :]

Nice shooting there Tab!  You're about the only other player I've seen so far that knows how to properly lead with that thing.  Excellent demonstration, and yes, the Ranger bot tends to be a bit of a dolt unless he's got the rocket launcher.

I'm not too keen on lowering the ammo counts for the large crates.  I don't see where having too much nail ammo is ever a problem.  Running short when you really, really need it is what normally tends to happen.  I have no problems with upping the weapon pickup quantity to 50, especially since that's only 25 actual shots from the SNG.  The proposed Oldschool mode will remain at 30, but 50 for normal play seems perfectly reasonable to me. ;)

I agree. I tried to use the nails as often as I could last night in the match and always found myself running on empty.  

 :offtopic:  I also think the barrels on the SNG are too thin, and the gun seems to be still pointing at the wrong angle. Still love to use it though.

would anybody mind if I got a nailgun tatoo?! :ownage:

Sounds good to me.

Shambler: do you mean a tattoo made by the use of a nailgun, or a tattoo depicting one? ;]

In any case, there's work to be done still on Slipgate weapons (we're close to tweaking animations for most of the weapons, but the SNG needs some extra work from Pho), and with animations come POV-positions, so don't worry. We're on it!

And yes, this also means we're almost halfway done animating the Generations arsenal ;]

I would be happy when I could give you a SNG piercing :p

yeah up the nails

we need more nails of DOOM

I tried to get a demo of me ripping Ranger a new one with only the nailguns, since I'm not too bad with them, but I ran into a problem -- he would only use the RL, and he kept pasting me with it no matter what I did! And rockets beat nails any day of the week...

The idea is to keep him from getting the rocket launcher by needling him first!

but again why needle him if you can rocketblast him into next year .

Because they're trying to demonstrate that the nailguns aren't useless. Didn't you read the rest of the topic?

Out of intrest, how does the hyperblaster compere with the SNG for ammo, speed, damage etc?

Hyperblaster
Refire delay:  100ms
Projectile speed:  1000 units/second (Quake 2 trajectory code)
Damage per shot:  15
Ammo used per shot:  1 cell
Max ammo:  300 cells
Ammo per weapon pickup:  50 cells
Ammo per cell pickup:  50 cells
Q3 Ammo sources:  Cells, BFG Ammo
Ammo shared with:  BFG10K

Super Nailgun
Refire delay:  100ms
Projectile speed:  1000 units/second (Quakeworld trajectory code)
Damage per shot:  18
Ammo used per shot:  2 nails
Max ammo:  200 nails
Ammo per weapon pickup:  30 nails
Ammo per small nailbox pickup:  25 nails
Ammo per lage nailbox pickup:  50 nails
Q3 Ammo Sources:  Bullets (25), Slugs (50), Cells (50)
Ammo shared with:  Nailgun

Nailgun
Refire delay:  100ms
Projectile speed:  1000 units/second (Quakeworld trajectory code)
Damage per shot:  9
Ammo used per shot:  1 nails
Max ammo:  200 nails
Ammo per weapon pickup:  30 nails
Ammo per small nailbox pickup:  25 nails
Ammo per lage nailbox pickup:  50 nails
Q3 Ammo Sources:  Bullets (25), Slugs (50), Cells (50)
Ammo shared with:  Super Nailgun

So here's a question for everybody: Why doesn't anybody ever complain about the Hyperblaster? :P

I think the SNG in Generations is an awsome weapon, just the ammo is scarce like everyone else said.

... nobody digs Strogg over other class? ;) ...

*looks at Tab with silly smile*

I think this highlights the problem then.

Hyperblaster
Max ammo: 300 cells
Ammo per weapon pickup: 50 cells
Ammo per cell pickup: 50 cells

Super Nailgun
Max ammo: 200 nails
Ammo per weapon pickup: 30 nails
Ammo per small nailbox pickup: 25 nails

Also Note: supernailgun=railgun!
  :D

I don't complain about either nails or hyperbolts, so I don't see where that's an indication of anything ;]

I don't hear the Waabulence Tab, do you?

I can't complain about the hyper bolts... I played 1v1 against Ranger the other day and used nothing but the hyper to try and compare. I found that my shots were hitting a lot more often than when I used the SNG.

I have no real idea as to why... I can lead and time a LOT better with the hyper than I can with the SNG. I beat him 10 - 3... I even avoided the ammo pickups, just keeping the 50 you get from weapon pickup (unless he dropped some in his backpack).

But anyway... the hyperblaster (300 max ammo, 1 cell per bolt) gets more shots compared to the SNG (200 max ammo, 2 nails per shot)... so I guess there's no reason to complain. And if anyone finds the same anomaly that I did above (being able to aim a lot better even tho the projectiles move at the same exact speed) that makes complaining even more unlikely. :)

I'm crap with the SNG be it in Gen or QW. Same goes for the HB. I just suck with Strogg cos I do. That said, Tab only beating me 3-1 on q2dm5 in 1v1 Strogg-only is an achievement in my book. The secret? HIDE!!

The SNG eating two nails per shot is why it runs out of ammo so bloody quick.  That's 100 shots from 200 nails.  A large crate of nails gives you 25 SNG shots, whereas a box of cells gives Strogg 50 hyperblaster shots.  As for ammo sources, remember that Strogg gets cells only from plasma and BFG ammo, the latter of which is very, very scarce, whereas Quakeguy gets nails from bullet boxes, plasma rounds, and railgun slugs, all of which tend to be somewhat common.  Strogg's hyperblaster is just a more efficient weapon as far as ammo usage is concerned.

Shambler quoted from the stats of the SNG and the Hyper.  When weapons are basically similar, it can help to compare how much "damage" is contained in the weapon pickup and the boxes.

Damage in Pickup  (damage in one shot times number of shots)
SNG:  270  (18*15)
Hyper:  750  (15*50)

In one big ammo box
SNG:  450
Hyper:  750

In pickup + two boxes (which are often together )
SNG:  1170
Hyper:  2250

Max damage weapon can carry (according to max ammo)
SNG:  1800
Hyper:  4500

The biggest differences are with the weapon pickup and the max ammo.  

I agree that the hyperblaster can seem better than the SNG, even though it has to spin-down after every burst.  Maybe it's because you feel like you can sweep slower with it because you have more ammo, maybe it's because the projectiles appear closer to their real size, maybe it's by comparison to the class's other weapons (the SNG is, as shambler said, the Slipgater's railgun).  I agree with other people who have said the only thing that could be improved about the SNG is the starting ammo, possibly by upping it to 50.

Then it sounds like a plan. ;)

I disliked the SNG before, but as I'm starting to use it more often I can appreciate it more. Yes, it takes skill, more skill than the hyperblaster (for me being a Q2'er) but at close range it can get fast kills. Blasting a stream of nails down a corridor with ppl in it works like a charm (but you need lots of ammo) :)