Wirehead Studios

4 vs Tab instead of 4 vs Pho this time?  This I've got to see.  I have a pretty good idea how it ends though!  <3

It's not that special actually - that's what Team DM tuesday has been since the day we launched it. Courtesy of Alu, who probably turned his propaganda-network on me ;]

At one point, people teaming up also started trying to spawnkill me and later even tried organised map control (Alu hunting me down, Kingu camping armor) - which worked eerily well. And to think that in the old days, I could set handicap 70 and still win 4vs1's with a considerable score difference...

Grandpa Tab lurks on his pipe and contemplates the good old times he had.

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also, belated response:


When the timelimit is about to hit (actually 2 or 3 seconds before that happens), you can hit someone with a BFG9000 and still don't cause any damage. All players are invulnerable right before the game ends.

Aye, I watched the demo last night.  I thought it was going to be "Doom Only", I didn't realize it was full classes.  I saw the blatant spawnkilling attempts you spoke of, as well as obvious powerup camping toward the end.  Nice job of dispatching that guy, and more than once.  I must say that when I played TDM vs Pho on the US server the game was a bit more honorable as far as my opposition was concerned.  I also don't think Simply Dead is a very good map for a 3 or 4 on 1 due to its openness.  You did toward the end exactly what I would have done in that situation - just BFG the !@#!@ out of everyone to pay them back for their rudeness.  :thumb:

Hey, you wouldn't let yourself be humilated, so why humilate everybody else?

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And on topic: As I recall, those were all some wild maps last night. And I was actually able to play this time!

What's humiliating about being raped by three Doom BFGs? I think I'm missing something here ;]

US forum game a few weeks ago that you ran away from? Or was I imagining that? :P

I guess that will be haunting me for the rest of my life huh? Think of it what you will. Life is way too short to waste time on frustrating situations created by artificial handicaps. Besides, I've always admitted to being a horrible HPB, how I deal with that is my own business, not an excuse to insult me :p

sure i don't mine 3 or more people trying to put a cap in my ass, happens all the time anyway  ;)

It's not so much an attempt at insulting you as it's something I don't think I'll ever understand. You won't play in an FFA on Central because of your ping because you don't want to be "humiliated," but you'll LPB it up on Euro in TDM alone against several people and beat the crap out of them. That's fairly humiliating, in my eyes, whether those players opted to go that route or not. :(

(The Internet: Serious business.)

I'd love to play on the USA server, but its in the middle of the night!

We early birds are never at our best at that time.

Let's all stay good, everyone has their reasons for not wanting to play certain ways.  I think the term "frustrating" is more appropriate than "humiliating" in regards to ping.  It's hard to play with a fairly high ping, especially when everyone else is playing at 50, and I can certainly understand getting a little peeved when you get 3 people trying to BFG you at the same time on a map where there's literally no place to hide.  I didn't see the demo Tab took as Tab humiliating anyone, I saw it as a difficult match as far as both sides were concerned.  Why should Tab be ashamed of his gaming ability?  That's like saying I should be ashamed of when I pummel people on the USA server.  I don't think either of us go out of our way to rub it in anyone's noses.  If people opt to do a "tdm vs player" that's their choice.  Nobody's being forced into anything here. ;)

Ping is part of the same reason I don't frequent the Euro server that often.  I'm rusty enough as it is, why add in extra latency if I don't have to?  I'd prefer to manually handicap myself if the situation calls for it, although I've played handicapped on Euro before.  I think you might have been there for that one.

Tab:  An "all vs Tab and Pho" would be interesting, we could see about doing that sometime.  I wouldn't mind being the HPB guppy in this case and play it on Euro, so long as I can be Doom.  :thumb:

My sentiments exactly: there's no 'humiliation' involved, and if that was my choice of words at the time, I stand corrected. Humiliation is what happens when you play as Doom and get owned by a Strogg player using only the blaster. Hence the award ;]

Even though you feel it does not matter, I feel it does; it was never my idea to have All vs Tab (or All vs Anyone for that matter) TDM. This was opted by someone quite a while ago, or naturally occurs when everyone joins the team I'm not in. It has become somewhat of a tradition, I guess, although I'll never be the one to suggest it, even now. More often than not, even in FFA there are shouts along the lines of 'everyone kill Tab!', usually for no real reason other than having a good laugh.

The only thing that is perhaps close to humiliating in this kind of game, is that the opposing team uses cheap tricks to try and gain a victory (like described by Pho earlier in this thread) - entirely their own doing. And again, it is only frustrating to me during play, I do not se it as a personal victory.

Another factor that plays a role here is the 'fame' that I, like other moderately good players, have gathered. There seems to be a Name to live up to. Whenever I get defeated or even killed, people seem amazed that they've done The-Impossible, not realizing that there's always a good deal of hype going down.
The famous bee in my bonnet is that it usually leads to people rubbing in victories/kills in all sorts of circumstances, including ping difference situations, uneven teams, while using handicaps etc. It sometimes leads to questionable play, like camping, spawn- and chatfrags and other easy kills. This in itself is not that big a problem (if I'm the victim), but it is the pride that others seem to feel when reaping the benefits that stings.

To me, it feels like I run the risk of letting something slip and giving others false feelings of pride, superiority etc. Whatever I have achieved, I have done through practice, dedication and the will to improve - all anyone has to do to surpass it, is do the same +1. Having someone feel (or act) victorious over me because of the aforementioned artificial advantages just annoys me, as in situations where the roles are reversed, I take them in account as best I can.

Arguably that frustration and the unwillingness to accept defeat is my weakness. It should in any case help to explain that which apparantly cannot be understood.

Hey, the only time I ever do an "Everyone kill Tab" call is when I get tired of that railgun winging me one too many times, or when you land on Doom and just won't die. :)

Why should any of us, for that matter? I'll never be 'very good' just like a lot of players, but that doesn't stop us from having a great time. We play this mod to enjoy it. if it gets too serous it takes away the fun.

Set your res to 1024x768, with full textures and relax and enjoy.

Tab summed up my feelings pretty much 100%.  I can't count the number of matches I've come in second because of the "Kill the bird!" mentality.  If there's another "uber" player on the server, guess what?  You're still not going to win by offing me repeatedly, or wearing me down because the other "uber" player is going to use the opportunity to take me out, and then mop everyone else up.  The end result is you still don't win, you just knock me far enough off my perch for someone else to climb up.  GG, all you did is inflate someone else's ego at my expense.  How did that help you climb the scoreboard any?  What's the difference if I frag you, or someone else frags you?  Fragged is fragged.

Gunning for the #1 guy (or at least the one with the reputation anyway) also tends to be suicidal because the more you encounter a difficult player the more you're going to respawn.   Playing difficult opponents does improve your ability, but not if you die in every attempt.  To me the wiser course of action is to concentrate on keeping yourself healthy.  Run the items, grab powerups when you can, and frag whatever targets you encounter as best as you can.  This balances the gameplay out as it ensures no one single player always gets the Quad, ir always gets the megahealth, or always gets the red armor.  This is especially important if you have an item hog on the server, or a powerup camper.  A good player is going to try to run the items so the best way to mix things up is to go for the good stuff when you can, especially when the stronger players are not around them.  If you ignore the powerups and strong items I guarantee you you're going to get the snot shot out of you by those who don't.  Phoenix's first rule of fragging - tank first, fight last.  Trying it the other way around gets you dead.  :thumb:

The only players I'll specifically gun for are people who go out of their way to deliberately tick me off (repeatedly chainsaw charging me after I've just respawned is a good example) or else someone being a llama.  If someone's spoiling it for everyone on the server I'll stop playing to win and start hounding the offender.  Otherwise I just shoot whoever I run into.

I hear ya.

By the way, this kind of thing is what I'm talking about:



In which game we were just having some laughs, goofing around and not even trying at times. I know I was, and I'm pretty sure he was too, which is why this kind of post raises my left brow.

I shoot who I can, when I can, however I can. At times I also switch targets... sharing the love, I guess.

I tend to be at my best when I don't even try... my Euro server venture as 'WhozitWhatsis' is an example. I finished last when actually trying.. got annoyed and left. Came back to just have fun, under a different name, and did signifcantly better... even if I did annoy some people (taunting with Anarki whenever I felt like it).

All in all tho... I'm happy as long as I break even (1 kill per 1 minute). If I get higher, yay.. if I get lower, I start getting annoyed. If I finish last, I usually quit (even if I broke even). Unless it's a small game, then I usually expect it.

So anyway... my victory is just breaking even. Might not be first in the scoreboard, but pfeh... doesn't bother me none. If it's a smaller game on a bigger map, breaking even isn't likely.. in which case, not finishing last is my goal.

Hehe, I knew you were 'Whozitsomethingsomething' - I recognized your style of play and jumpy connection :]
It's funny though, but it works that for me too, sometimes. Additionally, when I played a few rounds as 'C5H11N2O2P' (work that one out for yourselves, wiseguys), people tended to be more inclined to view my style of play as annoying or willfully malignant for some reason. I don't know if this is due to the usual animosity felt towards (skilled) newcomers or because they just got used to the way I play and aren't annoyed if they see [Tabun] in the obit?

Aye, I went through some phases

1) 1999 - Damn this games fun! Public server frenzy.
2) 2000 - OK its fun, but now for some clan league action
3) 2001 - OK time to play this as a sport, step up the pace joining multiple leagues
4) 2002 - OK playing Q3 seriously kinda takes the fun out of it when your opponents take it WAY too seriously - return to one league and play more on public servers
5) 2003 - Leagues not givin the adrenaline hit - roam the publics for fun, annihilating everything in sight - smiling like a fat kid with cake when I get called a bot.
6) 2004 - Aging veteran having taken a break returns as a shadow of his former self, plays amongst players who are aggressive and losing so badly just made me irate and prone to saying things like 'In my day. young bucky...' and shaking my digital fist.
7) 2005 - Well past it! ..but enjoying it again for the simplistic nature of the game and the fact that no other game compares for speed, precision and the control the player has over their actions...

I've just gotten used to playing badly now, but every once in a while the old spark awakens.

I still consider good/low ping players on even teams taking Quad to be dishonorable and RA shouldn't be necessary unless health is particularly low and its a question of survival - in the same way that many percieve spawn camping to be so.

And on standard Q3 servers, BFG servers are considered newbie servers, no self respecting admin would run a BFG server and no self respecting player would play on one...
But these are no standard Q3 servers :p

I wouldn't mind a clarification on the Dual Gats ...
I mean are Dual Gats the Earth equivalent of BFG? If so then surely they have a crazy advantage on non bfg maps as they can just pick two of the lower dmg weapons up..
If they aren't then never mind.

Me I just suck harder then one sucks a mint. I'm no competition, i'm just a free kill for your friendly neighborhood Tab. It's funny sometimes, in q3dm17 I always come out with a negative score of like -23 or something because I visit outer space alot. :D I seriously have trouble with the Rocket Launcher, I can't lead the player that well. I just suck it's depressing sometimes  O_o *takes a prozac* Ahhh.... my happy place.....

The Dual Gatling Guns are a BFG-class weapon.  They are easy to get, sure, but they have the following drawbacks:

1)  They eat ammo even faster than Skippy's Super Nailgun
2)  Several of Earth's other weapons share the same ammo
3)  They're only good at close range, otherwise you're wasting ammo
4)  You have to keep them trained on someone to make a kill
5)  If you die with them out and active, someone else just got a BFG - and the whole server knows why

The DualGats can be very lethal if used properly, and part of the problem right now is you can't tell who is dual from someone who's single because they're only toting one gun around from third-person.  This will change with 1.0.  I had code in place during Gen's initial alpha to draw both guns from third person, but the source changes that included Team Arena code made that incompatible, and I've had too many other things that had to be done first before I could implement that kind of thing again.  It also requires new player model animations to be included, so we've had to wait on it.  For now, if you see an Earther running around with a gatling gun, assume he has two.  You can tell them apart by sound, but by then it's usually too late if you're the target. ;)

Regarding the "BFG = noob" attitude, I can certainly understand annoyance with the Q3 BFG, especialy for those who may not have "grown up" with the older Id games.  The Q3 BFG is  an overpowered, no-skill spamcannon.  That's why we changed it by default to behave more like a real BFG, similar to the BFG10K from Quake 2 and the BFG9000 from Doom, but with its own unique behavior.  The old one can still be accessed with a dmflag.  I don't, however, subscribe to the mentality that "if-you-even-think-of-touching-a-bfg-there-is-something-wrong-with-you".  This probably comes from the fact that I'm a casual gamer and always have been, and I've never played competitively.  I also tend to like to clear a room full of people from time to time.  I am, however, aware of the fact that certain gaming "cliques" tend to develop certain attitudes toward certain elements of play.  Back when I played RA2 a lot it was considered in poor taste to use the chaingun, especially on HPB players (of which over half of all people playing at the timer still were) because you'd get a few LPB's on a team simultaneously chaingunning people from match start.  You had absolutely no chance against that sort of thing if you were on dialup.  The BFG thing I see as more of an attitude difference than a gaming fairness issue.

As far as Doom, Q2, and Gen is concerned, I'm of the belief that BFG's are just part of the game, and like anything else they can either add some serious fun or be overused and abused.  Someone who constantly heads straight for the BFG and only the BFG (or camps the thing) is behaving as lame as someone who constantly heads for the Quad 110% of the time, and I've seen (and dispatched) players that do both.  I've seen "pro" players chatfrag, spawnfrag, and camp all the strong items and yet they see absolutely no problem with that kind of play, and consider themselves better than everyone else for it.  Why?  That's how everyone else they know plays, or they flat out just don't care about fair play because they want the win and nothing else matters to them.  I have the problem when the game is no longer about playing to have a good time and becomes, as Tab would put it, a virtual penis-measuring contest.  I have absolutely no use for that sort of thing.

Lame behavior really can involve any item, but the way I see it the other players should not be penalized by one person's abusive behavior.  Stripping items out of play really doesn't solve too much unless it's something that makes someone completely unkillable, like the Q2 Power Shield, which never belonged in deathmatch in the first place.  In Quake 2 there were also servers that disabled the BFG10K, but all that did is allow railgun-camping bot cheaters free reign over the server, or whoever got the Power Shield would become an unkillable tank since that was always left in play if the BFG was ripped out.  You can frag someone running around with a BFG, you can't frag someone with the deflector shields from the freaking USS Enterprise.  The BFG=lame attitude was epidemic back then, and I really think it just took on a mind of its own, a sort of "groupthink" mob mentality against it.  I played on a Weapons of Destruction server from time to time, and I was called a lamer by one individual for using the BFG10K to kill a guy who constantly grappled to a wall and lobbed napalm grenades everywhere.  It was WOD for crying out loud, the LAST place you'd expect someone to whine about the BFG10K!

The only problem behaviors I see are deliberate chatfragging, camping, and generally being an ass to other players for no reason.  If you're out to ruin it for everyone else because that's how you get your jollies, there's a word for that - bully.  It's no different from a schoolyard thug who gets off on stealing someone's lunch money.  Thuggish behavior doesn't belong in an online game.  As long as the game stays focused on being fun and the hostility is kept to a minimum then everyone wins.  That's what I think anyway.

Washu:  As long as the "I suck" doesn't turn into "I suck and I have no chance of improving". You can always get better.  Just don't be defeatist about it.  I've seen a lot of players go from "I suck" to topping scoreboards within a year or two of playing a game.

Also, in Generations there aren't many free frags that are exclusive to 'good' players. Some classes are just easy to frag with in specific situations. There's no escaping a mortar sometimes, just like there's no escaping a Doomer with ammo, or a railing Strogger in a space map. So unless you're referring to that, you're not on the receiving end of free fragging ;]

One of the things I've come to despise (ever since Quake 2 1on1'ing back in the 'good old days'), is the rail-and-switch-to-shotgun or rail-and-switch-to-chaingun tactic. So what happens is that someone gets a lucky rail shot in and proceeds to finish the target off in the easiest way possible. Lame. Anyone can kill a player with 10-20 health points with a supershotgun. Only gutless wussies need to.
Here's what a stylish and honourable gladiator does: He finishes the player off with another rail shot (if he was railing in the first place). I hear you thinking: "But Tab, that's not efficient!". Break-pause-stop-hold-it. This is a game, not an insurance marketing convention. Prove that you can aim and play ball. Besides, what's wrong with leaving an opponent with -60 health? Let the gibs fly freely and work for it.

That kind of thing annoys me way more than the (occasional) BFG blast, or the unwarranted use of the dualgats..

Personaly Tabs I don' t think that tactic is that bad. I mean, not everyone is a good shot with the rail, and if they suceed in a shot, and pull out a weaker weapon because they may not hit you a second time, is just a playing strategy. To me the goal is to get frags honestly, and developing tactics and using them, even if it seems cheap. What you do in return is develop a counter-strategy. I mean if you are really that good, you'll mop up that cheap ol' annoyance right? :)

That is a 'tactic', just like raping someone by ganging up on them is a tactic, like fragging the one with the least health in a crowded room is a tactic, like going Doom only when you get a free Supershotgun on spawn is a tactic. Just because it works doesn't make it right. If I would want it, I could go that way and score about 20-30% more frags in my games. (depending on several factors, ofcourse)
Being a bad shot is not an excuse for dirty tricks. If you have relatively bad aim (and I've been there, believe me), the best way to go is to work on your dodging skills and item control. If you get 4 tries versus the opponents 2, you not only have a chance to nullify his aim-advantage, but you get to practice and hone your own skills more in the process. Everybody wins. Score a cheap frag and you annoy someone else and fail to improve. Everybody loses.

I did say honest frag. :)

      I don?t want to sound like an ass but here it goes. *sigh* Don?t take this as an attack. Of course there is a point were you draw the line. But really. Every time I develop a tactic, a good player who is usually good, comes across my tactic, and can't beat it, shouts insults and calls me a cheater and a cheap shot. Then I just lose all desire to play anymore, because I can't develop a playing style other then just plain sucking without players whining about how I'm cheap. That's one reason there why I suck, because I am afraid to play how I play in fear I may offend someone, because they can't figure out how to beat my tactic.
      What if a player uses a rail gun and has only 1 shot left. They hit you and switch to the shotgun. What are they supposed to do? Say ?okay go ahead and beef up a bit, grab a mega health and a BFG or two, after all you?re only 20 frags ahead of me and it would really put a large sufficient hole in your game if I gain one frag.? /sarcasm
      Like I said there is a point where you need to limit your clever ingenuity in developing tactics. But when playing and you get your behind moped all over the floor because someone has a clever strategy, don?t jump to the chat box and start yelling ?Cheap Cheater!? You got to find a way to BEAT the strategy. Obviously if you spend 3 serious hard thinking hours trying to counter their strategy there is something you can defiantly question.

Washu's got a point, but it really comes down to how 'serious' the game is. In a competitive or a heated match between several equally good players, using finishing weapons makes sense.

But if you're just having fun and goofing off, why not practice your aim a bit more.

Relax, Tab. I was only joking. ;) Any time I've gone on the Euro server and seen All vs Tab I've just gone along with it. If I'd known what I know now from this thread I'd have done auto-join. I don't play competitively, not just because I can't, but also because it's a GAME. That was actually a fun round that night. I don't play much online 1v1 myself and it was refreshing to have a bit of stealth action on the go for a change. That said, your reputation as Strogg does precede you, so does Pho's as Doom, and it wouldn't have been the first time I got plastered against the wall. :D

As for the BFG-spamming on Dead Simple, I personally expect nothing less from that map :evil:  although I do see Tab's point on how it can be a pain in the arse on all vs 1 TDM.

Doom blimp-spamming, guilty as charged although it was only once and as a wind-up a few weeks back. Not mentioning any names, there were some anti-Doom "learn some skill" comments passed, albeit NOT by the victim of said barrage of rockets ;)

I find it more fun trying blind trick shots with the GL or mortar. They rarely come off, but it's a laugh seeing the "?" when they do. :P This isn't to intentionally annoy people, just for one of those "heh" moments.

I play mostly as Doom, but I'd still play as Doom if it were one of the weakest classes because I'm a Doom fan, NOT to gain any unfair advantage. It wasn't long ago that Slippy players were getting it in the neck for only ever using the RL and don't get me started on the Arena BFG...

If you're only out to win, then you're missing the point, but there is a knife-edge between the fragger being a cheap shot and the fragged being a sore loser.

I'm an avid weapon switcher, so I guess my play style annoys Tab. :)

If I happen to get a rail hit, I always switch to a lower weapon to score the frag. It's the same with Slippy and his rockets too... after hitting with one or two, I switch to something else most of the time... unless rockets are still my best option.

I'm a horrid shot with railguns and all sniper weapons... I always have been since I started playing games online. I get a lucky streak every so often, but that's all it is really. So when I get a hit that doesn't kill, I switch to something I can actually hit with. Working on my sniper aim isn't going to happen, because I'm the type who hates railguns more than he hates BFGs. I've always hated snipers.. and probably always will. So there's no way I'm going to become something I hate. :)

Washu:
I don't see anything that could be interpreted as an attack in your post? I certainly don't whine about it, to my knowledge. I've also never seen you handle any questionable strategy in any game I've witnessed, so perhaps I haven't been clear about my views here. Obviously I'm not talking about:
- running out of ammo (even in a sarcastic tone of voice, this is a no-brainer)
- incidental use
- application when playing sudden death or CTF panic situations
- newbs vs 'pro's'

What bugs me here, as with all cheap tactics, is that the more experienced players seem most eager to apply them. Someone is kicking the shit out of a newbie and keeps playing hardball, grabbing powerups and using said weapon switch tactics. That ticks me off.
In incidental use it's mildly annoying, but not a big issue for me. It still is weak, but hey, we can't all be heroes. Everyone's free to go 'dark side' to any extent, as long as they're not ruining the game for someone else by any objective standard.

There will come a day however, that you'll find yourself playing in traditional patterns that have grown on you throughout eons of play - that's when you'll hardly notice you're doing it, and that you don't need to be doing it (anymore). That's one of the 'dangers' of trying them at any time IMO.


Scalli:
I'm relaxed :] - It was just a typical example of the kind of message I often see after something like that, and the timing was nigh-perfect.
If I'd have lost (in either that game or the All vs Tab one), you could have called me a sore loser - but I think I'd have been less eager to start this whole discussion. I wouldn't want to give people the incentive to link my opinion to the result of a couple of games ;]



Anyway, I hope I don't come across as a whiner in general, because I fear I'd be having a really distorted view of things. All I know is that I have a love of honour that is uncommon in today's society, whether it be virtual or 'real', and that is somewhat disheartening. Sometimes a trivial thing can lead me to blow something out of proportion, at other times, it will not. Either way, I'm sure the core of my message is be clear and sensible.

hmmm dark side, good is dark dark side

weapon switching after rails Mwhaaa haaa haaa

seriously though

I am a weapon switching kinda player, generally it is a sound tactic, and that's the whole point.  you have all the weapons in deathmatch for a reason

sniper weapons for long range
rapid fire for close to mid
spamming weapons, just pick a point
and up close and personal weapons like the shotgun, for when you really have to rip somebody's face off

so if it annoys you tab, sorry but that's how i like to do things

and at the end of the day a frag is a frag, whether it be seen to be cheap or not

and yes i'll admit right hear and now, that yes i say the "All against Tab a fair bit"

but generally there's no malice involved, and it's usually because even with 4 or 5, or however many players you have against tab he still comes up on top :)~

which you either admire ( as he well deadly), or you think "right, he's not getting me next time" and find way to stop him as he aint unbeatable

as for power up hogging, not my style.  if you can frag normally, why use the quad.

 :ownage:

This discussion is funny considering that the 4 or 5 players that cream us all aren't even here. Tab and Pho are a given. But people forget we have players like makou, kajet, spawn, and a handful of others that when noobs or people whose skill isnt up to par get creamed. Me included. Like someone stated before. We're in it for the fun otherwise we wouldn't be playing this mod. Yeah. Its fun to win and it gives us braggin rights amongst ourselves. But it serves no other purpose. You won. Good. Don't be an ass.
:P

ENJOY!

Just tonight I saw people using those tactics against a total newbie. I also saw a Doomer pull a QUADED chaingun spawnkill against a Strogger wielding his blaster. Call it sound, call it tactics; it's weak and if you're in the lead, you best show some backbone. If you're getting stomped by everyone, it's a different story, but if not - grit those teeth and get to work, just like everybody else :p

Hey... he spawned in the middle of a crossfire and lost his protection. That's not my fault. I just decided to finish him off after getting my original target. As stated, I also do things without thinking... weapon switching is one of them. It's a habbit for me any more because it's what I've always done.

If I notice I'm utterly slaughtering someone, I do change my style a bit.. avoiding certain weapons and such. Unless it's a bigger game (5+).. then I just keep going.

As for the newbie... I dunno how to handle that really. My train of thought is as such... if I kill him normally, at least he won't feel (as?) bad. If I switch to a low weapon and kill him (I did this with the axe once).. I'll seem like an ass to him, as if I'm trying to make myself feel all godly. Some advice here would be helpful to me. ;p

I don't see the prob. really. When I'm quadded (the rare occasion that I actually pick it up and not /gib), I pay close attention to where I'm firing. I also don't go out of my way to assault said player.. Anyway, I certainly don't hope I'm making people feel humiliated when I'm playing with a handicap or refraining from using some items/powerups/weapons/classes. It's all about fun, and when you keep dying 20 times a minute, I'm sure the fun can be improved upon by such simple means without making one look arrogant. Correct me if I'm wrong here - I'm fine with not using said handicaps, but I do think it makes the game more enjoyable for most people?

I couldn't agree more. I wasn't specifically calling anyone a sore loser, but I've had my fair share of "GG BFG" etc thrown at me in the past over incidents which were more or less inoccuous, and while I'm not in the league of using handicaps just yet, they are there for just that purpose: keeping the gameplay in the sweet spot. That's why I hate playing InstaGib online, cos all you need is a better connection than the other guy.

I like handicaps.. but I doubt I'll ever make it to that level.

In any case... sorry if I come off sounding like an ass. I just play in the classic SpAwN fashion that I've been using for the last so many odd years now. Some of my tactics might seem underhanded and low, but it's what I'm used to. If there's ever a problem with how I play.. just tell me and I'll most likely think a bit more instead of going on my instinct.. at least catch myself, hopefully. ;p

I'm the kind of player who will use a shotgun to pop someone I just nailed with a railgun, and I'm not one bit ashamed to admit it.  Why?  Because if I don't, one of the following things will happen:

1)  The said player will pop me instead
2)  Someone ELSE out of view will steal my kill (I did all the work dammit!)
3)  Someone else will frag me from behind (Rob) while I'm trying to take potshots at the guy
4)  He'll run away

Using something like a shotty or machinegun to followup a solid railgun hit to me has always just been part and parcel of gameplay.  The judicious selection of weapons was a serious part of Quake 2.  If you played Rocket Arena 2 as long as I did you learned really quick that if you didn't finish the other guy off FAST you'd bite it when he whipped out the chaingun.  This was especially important when playing pickup games (elimination-style team deathmatch) because there are no items in RA2.  No health, no armor, no extra ammo.  You start with what you start with, and play until you're dead.  Being dead doesn't help your team because you can't respawn until the next match.  Even 1 vs 1 matches you'd have to manage your guns.  I started playing deathmatch in Quake 2, and I can't count the times I've died because the other guy had the sense to switch guns a split second before I did.  I don't see that as cheap on his part, I see that as a fault on my part to not compensate and anticipate his move.

I see nothing wrong with the tactical application of weapon switching in public games, especially the big ones, and I've never been against the use of finishing weapons.  I've been known to switch to the blaster after railing someone to near death for giggles too.  If this seriously ticks someone off, let me know and I won't do it, but I like to add some adrenaline to the match and you'd be surprised how fast people move when "blaster kill" is a threat.  90% of the time they get away anyway.  If it's a small match or there's a lot of new players, then yeah, make it a bit challenging on yourself, give the other guy a break, but I'm not going to feel guilty about popping someone with the Q2 single shotty (it's underused anyway) after corkscrewing him or her once or twice (or three times if it's a tanked Earther).  As much as people gun for me the way they typically do I'm going to kill people in the most efficient manner I can, though, I may have a bad tendency to toy with my "prey" occasionally by using weaker weapons.  I hope that doesn't bother anybody, I'm not doing it to be mean, just for a few good natured cackles.

Changing weapons at the best time is common sence. I don't see a problrm here. I try to do it all the time. I even go into a fight with a nailgun, and quickly swop to the RL when the opponant gets in close for the kill, rather than staying back! Common sence. (I don't attack noobs, I encourage them) I call this stratergy, using my exrerance to make up for my slower reactions.

Handicaps make the game more fun for all players, and it keeps the top men on thier toes, so they don't get bored. I've had a couple of 1 on 1 with tab, if I remember rightly, and with out the handicaping it would have been 10-0 etc. no fun for anyone, and niether would improve thier game play.

Another example: due to my job I play a lot of Chess with 12 year old 'noobs'  I Never paste them. I always give them a few pieces start. Otherwise I wouldn't enjoy it. (like Tab, I've been known to do 4-1!)

Just my view on this thing. :thumb:

I once saw a chessmatch between a teacher and a student .
t took the student 7 moves to win the game . best match ever , even the teacher couldnt believe it .

Weaker weapons are not the issue; it's the easy kill that makes it weak (and obviously, the less-skilled way). I just find it funny that hardly anyone is willing to admit there is weakness in the weapon switch. I'm not saying it's not efficient and that it isn't useful, practical, succesful - I'm saying it's the easy way out. If you're mopping up the floor with the server, why not take the hard road once in a while?

When someone is stupid enough to follow me into a narrow hallway, I'll switch to the Rocket launcher, or Flamer etc - that's sound IMO. When I feel like a little fun, I'll go grenades only. When someone's tanked, I'll switch to the Strogg chaingun.
 It does not compare to an unescapable situation (let's say you're both in the center of Simply Dead - your opponent having 110 health), connecting the rail, doing the switch. You must recognize the situation, you all have been there - there is no escape possible: the outcome is predetermined. If the other player has a choice to do anything but die, it is not what I'm talking about. To me, this fits more in the easy-kill category: It's like chasing a player who wields  nothing but a blaster down relentlessly, going quad when you're tanked, picking on the weakest player in a crowded room from a safe distance: it works, but why take the easy road systematically and structurally?

I'm seriously rather surprised I am practically the only one who feels this way about that kind of thing; I'm also one of the few high scoring players who leaves the Quad alone most of the time and uses handicaps regularly.
( I'd like to hear from Euro players how they feel about that, because if it is an annoyance rather than somewhat of an improvement, then I will certainly stop doing it. My intentions are to make the game more enjoyable, not less. So speak up if something about my play-adjustments has the opposite effect of what I intend it to have. - this aside for now - )

I have also detected that since a few weeks or so, people on the Euro server have improved and keep improving noticeably. The way I play might help here too, because there are less inescapable situations, which means more chances to get shots in, escape or try something new altogether. At the same time, I get some practice in hunting/escaping. I've noticed this kind of learning exchange with Alu mostly: he's improved on every level and we now have fun and strategic conflicts - the frag is not decided after the first shot connects, but rather after we both had to do some cunning cat/mouse-cat/dog fighting and map-navigation. We could trade about half of those situations in for a quick, clean and easy kill, but neither of us sees the fun in that.

To sum it up:
- I don't see the nescessity for a good player: I've not felt the need for it even though I tend to miss the second rail shot often enough.
- It's less entertaining, it leads to less challenging and more predictable play. Instead of training a hard skill, you train an easy skill.
- It gives (esp. newbies) that 'well, I can just type /kill or stand still here and save my strength' feeling relatively often - one of the things that I've seen people driven away from servers by.

But:
- This is not about every weapon switch one can ever make. This is not about incidental use. This is not about application in big frag-nights where everyone keeps stealing your kills. This is not about tense 1on1s between equally skilled players. This is not about 'when Strogg meats a closing in Doom'. ;]
This is not about other situations where it makes sense and the above 3 points have no connection to it. This is not black-and-white for me.
- Obviously, switching to the blaster makes it tougher, not easier :]


Now, I'll admit it costs me a couple of frags here and there, and sometimes that's an annoyance. Even so, I seem to be doing just fine. I'm honing my skills in preventing people from stealing kills, making tougher shots and defending myself from people backshooting me in the process. There is a choice, is all I'm saying.

I won't whine when a 'newbie' kills me this way, hell, I won't whine when equally skilled players like most of you will do it to me. But if it happens a couple of times in a row by someone who didn't need to, there's a chance I'll go on a rampage, hunt down the 'offender', and wrap that shotgun around his/her neck ;]

----

P.S. Games: That's something we call 'herdersmat'. It's one of those sequence-errors you'll make in Chess once, then never again. I'm surprised the teacher fell for it :]

I agree with Tab.

But sometimes you just don't know how the other player stands for weapons, health etc. You shot first before the other guy does. Sorry if I shot anyone wrong.

(Thinking back - I shot tab once with the sigle slippy shotgun and he died. If I hadn't, he would have killed me easy) Or as Arnold Rimmer said 'I'd shoot him on the job if I had to.' Not Tab mind, hes been really good to me since I got broadband and discovered Gen at the same time.

Games: we call it 'Zugzwag' over here. Is the Dutch?

Hey Tabs, when I started using my tactics last night, my game improved quite significantly. The last 2 games I played I was in the top 5 in terms of frags. I'm usually at the bottom. I think if I reveal my stategies, I may be called cheap. They may be cheap, but they are effective.

I did feel sorry for that one guy that got his rear end rearranged time and time again. And many people were using said tactics on him that were just cold. He had 1 or 2 kill out of a whole game. Someone could have taught him something instead of gaining a kill from him. Even I was a bit light on him.

Hey, I went easy on the fella. Couldn't simply stop shooting at him without making it look odd, but I didn't frag him hard or often either. Didn't notice any 'cheap tactics', so I guess they weren't? :]

Now that sort of thing ticks me off.  I've had people chase me from spawn like that before, all the way across the freaking map.  I took every opportunity the rest of the game to frag the SOB as a result.  I go out of my way to give newspawns a chance to run and get a weapon.  If they turn and shoot at me, yeah, I'll frag them on the spot and tell them if they had gone the other direction I'd have left them alone, but relentless spawn-chasing peeves me.  Going Quad while tanked... well I see nothing wrong with that, again, just part of the game to me, and I expect others to do the same thing.  In a normal match I'll run the Invuln as opposed to the Quad if I can, or I'll match powerups with the other guy, but I try not to "whore" powerups at this point.  I will try to deny someone else the powerup if they're trying to whore it themself, and I do like to get a "holy shit" style kill on someone who's blindly headed toward a powerup and is not paying attention to what's going on around them.  In a busy match I might even Quad-Invuln, but usually I just go around and grab health and armor when I do that and avoid the big fights.  My normal Quad behavior is to charge in guns blazing and pick a fight with whoever's got the biggest gun, or try to score a few "excellents" by charging into crowded rooms.  I just tend to go nuts sometimes, call it bloodlust from my predatory nature if you will.  If nobody's grabbing the quad at all I'll "remind" people that it's on the level by chasing them around with a quadded blaster. ;)

In regards to the Simply Dead reference... If I'm pasting someone all over the map, yeah, I'll give them a chance, but I tend to lay off the railgun anyway when that happens, or I'll just handicap myself.  I'm merely referring to normal play with the usual players on the US server.  Anyone who is new to the mod I'll give every break I can and help them out.  Usually if I see someone on the server I've never seen before I'll sit spec and volunteer to answer questions if I can.  Maybe we just don't get as many green players on the US server?

I always forget about the handicap. I played some 1on1 with Crio the other night and creamed him. I would have been more fun if I'd handicapped.

So please remind me in the future.

It must be noted here that I've seen some US games where there were about 4 people in the lead with minor frag differences and the fragcount between top and bottom scorer was around 10-20 frags. If the game stays that way even when you're using Quad and/or Invul, hey, no problem.
What I know is that if I'm 30 frags ahead of player two in the list, and there's someone running around scoring 1-4 frags in 15 minutes, I stay the hell away from any powerup, unless (like you do) I feel like running around with a blaster or gauntlet and doing fun stuff for kicks.

I don't mind bloody chaos, but I do mind controlled and unrelenting slaughter, when it comes to using the tactics I mentioned. Some people will not let go of Quad even when they're ahead 10-0 in a 1on1 after 5 minutes of play. They'll keep using quaded dualgats. That to me sounds a whole lot different than grabbing Quad in a 20 player FFA when everyone's having a good time regardless of what happens :]

I have keyboard-binds to set my handicap: I made some aliases to both adjust my nick to [Tab60] and set my handicap to 60 at the same time, etc. Works like a charm and makes it easier to both set and remember the handicap :]

Mind posting those aliases?

Sure thing:


That's what I have in my gen_autoexec.cfg (which I link to at launch via a desktop shortcut).

You can also do a rotating bind if you only want to use one key to cycle through your handicaps.  For example:

Interesting Tab material.  :ninja:
I never seen someone use handicaps until now.

I prefer my own method, since that doesn't spam nick changes ;]

very useful

tho i would never consider handicapping myself, as I aint that good

but still if it rocks your boat, hey go with it

Here's another way to easily 'handicap' yourself:

scrap metal II demo (http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/tab_20050518_ffa_scrapmetal_h.zip)

Ofcourse it doesn't work if you allow yourself to grab the items when you're in need of health/armor (I actually automatically grabbed the RA once, about 4 minutes in :/), but as long as you force yourself to give up the MH/RA in general, you're already making the game more tense and dynamic for everyone.

Tab:  I hear you, I just wanted to show people how to make a rotating bind script incase they didn't know how.  :thumb:

I must admit that I am something of a power-up whore, but I honestly have no clue when any power-up spawns in any map.  I've just played some maps so much that I typically get the timing right.  My general strategy is this... "Deny the stronger players the means to re-strengthen themselves.  Avoid conflict until strong enough or forced into it."  That aside, I think my power-up whoring mixes things up more than it breaks them, because I'm very prone to death and dropping whatever power-up I have. ;)  I also have no idea where I am in most maps.  I kind of go wherever I fancy which also causes me to not encounter anyone until after the power-up runs out.

I love using melee weapons as well, not because I enjoy getting humilation awards, but because I love the challenge of it.  I don't go strictly melee all that often either.  Overwhelming Hostility is the only map where I do such on a regular basis, because I love the gauntlet, and I make excellent use of it there.

Anywho, if ever you think I'm doing something that's degrading the quality of a game, just let me know, and I'll do my best to deter/watch for the behavior, or if it's something I disagree with, I'll try my best to meet some kind of happy medium.

How about a map, (or an adjusted map) with only the 'minor' weapons in it? for example, stormatourium with nothing more powerful than miniguns? it would help training on the 'lesser' weapons.

Please don't shoot me, just a thought..... :)

I Reckon that's a cool idea

no Rocket Launchers
no BFG's
No Railguns

you'de still have the earth duel gats prob tho

but other than that i reckon it's a wicked idea

I'm in the process of making a map and I am debating on the Rocket Laucher. I'm thinking about just replacing the Rocket Launcher with the Grenade Laucher.

Remember that placing a grenadelauncher means giving two classes a rocketlauncher, and denying it to three other classes.

hmmm, you might be best with just having

the Gauntlet, the machine gun, and the shotgun then

Weak-weapon maps would be tricky owing the the cross-class strengths and weaknesses.  A shotgun spawn may sound weak, but to Doom it's a very powerful weapon, whereas to Slipgate you might as well use spitballs.  Earth can get a gat (or two) from a single shotgun spawn as well, so you might want to watch how much ammo you leave on the map if you do that.

Plasmagun spawns are usually pretty balanced.  Doom's plasma rifle is stronger and more spammy than the others, but it also eats ammo quickly and he gets the least ammo benefit from cells.  Slipgate's SNG and Strogg's hyper are somewhat on par with each other.  Arena's plasma has always been kind of so-so, and Earth's flamer is only good at short ranges.

That's what I was afraid of.

Heh... I think Arena's plasma is better than all the others. It flies hella fast. Might not be the strongest, but the speed makes up for it.

I agree with Tab that euros are getting better. We have a good teacher  <3

The cases where FFA games would be led by Tab with a 40 frag difference to the second player are less frequent. The handicap helps there :)

Though it is still difficult to do a fair TDM round. I have not seen many games where the team that Tab's in didn't win.

I do believe that if the leading player in a FFA game leads by a 20 or more frag difference, any and every way of killing that player is allowed ;)

BTW: Tab still won that game where we ganged up on him with 3 bfg's. I call that fair ;)

shotgun means gatling gun  nad if you pick up 2 gats its a dual gat .

make the shoty a plasma gun

All weapon pickups are unbalanced one way or the other. I think Arena gets the biggest advantage from a plasma pickup :]

Alu: I only won that round because I got pissed and went BFGing-Doom at the end..