Wirehead Studios

http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/fun.games/07/...x.ap/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/fun.games/07/20/video.game.sex.ap/index.html)

The moral of this story - if you don't intend someone to see it, don't leave it built into the game.

Oh yeah, Con dropped this one in the channel:

http://www.wired.com/news/games/0,2101,682...tw=wn_tophead_1 (http://www.wired.com/news/games/0,2101,68284,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_1)

That's right, let's just shift the blame to the people who buy your freaking product and want to tinker with it!  Let's kill off the mod communities!  Oh yes, and we need the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT involved in this!  Just remember who's wanting the FTC investigation here and who's turning this into a Federal matter when it comes election time.  Oh yes, I will never, ever buy a product from Rockstar or Take Two in the future.  They want to blame the gamers for their own stupidity, they'll have no money from me.  Ever.[/color]

Rockstar has done nothing but bring un-needed heat down on the gaming industry with their low brow crap. Good games sit on the shelves and collect dust because teenagers think beating hookers with a bat is funny. If this were Doom 3 or half life 2 or another good violent game i might be more prone to defend it when this sort of thing comes up. Id rather see GTA go down than see the whole gaming industry brought down by its ugly buggy crap.

There are people who like to hurt others. They are sad, broken wrecks, who are always unhappy and get fun from making others unhappy. The ones that do it in games are just the ones who are not brave enough to do it in real life.

http://www.gtasanandreas.net/news/single.php?id=1469 (http://www.gtasanandreas.net/news/single.php?id=1469)

wel the movie itself is quit funny I think .

http://www.videogamesareevil.com/ (http://www.videogamesareevil.com/)

Sham: I'm a big fan of the GTA games (not that I can get to play them on my PC these days). I consider myself a reasonably stable individual and as such feel that your comment is a little unfair. There is a giant chasm between, for example, terrorism and playing a computer game based around crime. One of the main things I like to do in GTA is wage war on the cops and see how long I can survive before they ultimately either arrest me of kill me. Try doing that in real life. The big question on that score is: why does anyone like to play violent games of any description? I sure as hell am not out to hurt anyone.

Everyone: As for the whole "hot coffee" debacle, for a start, I've given it a go (that's the type of person I am :P) and, to be honest, I think that the likes of Sen. Clinton are blowing it way out of proportion. Here's why:

1. I'm not up to speed on the US ratings system, but in the UK GTA San Andreas comes with a big red "18" on the front, spine and back of the cover, as well as on the disc itself.

2. In gameplay terms, this mini-game is the type of thing that would end up being more of a pain in the arse than an entertaining distraction after a while. It was funny once, but after a quick giggle I went straight back to the default mission script file and carried on playing the game as it was intended. (BTW I'm 26 years old.)

All this considered, though, I am in agreement with Pho as Take2 have made a big mistake shifting the blame on to the modding community. This was bound to happen. If you don't clean up your software properly there are modders out there who WILL find all of the bits you didn't want anyone to find. Ironic, since the PC version was billed by R* as "mod-friendly". Bastards.

Hey, I didn't say ALL people who played games were like that!, just that some people are, and some of those people play games. you can spot that kind of person by the WAY they play.
I deal with a lot of damaged children in my job, and the ones like that, we call them bullies.

They are. They pick on smaller, younger, quieter ones and make thier life hell. They like hurting others, but only those who are not able to fight back. they often do it in gangs of similar kids, picking on little ones. We stamp on this as soon as we know about it, but the victims are often too scared to tell us about it. I see it every week. These gangs of bullies are even trying to bully teachers now. They tried it on me! enough of that.

Scall, I did't say all players were like that, but you will agree that there are some like it, I'm sure.

The biggest problem in my mind is the ESRB rating system itself.  I must admit that I am unfamiliar with how other countries conduct their rating system, but I am fairly certain that only the USA and Canada feature the M and the AO rating.

Let's examine what the definition of each rating is according to the Electronic Software Rating Board.


MATURE
Titles rated M (Mature) have content that may be suitable for persons ages 17 and older. Titles in this category may contain intense violence, blood and gore, sexual content, and/or strong language.

ADULTS ONLY
Titles rated AO (Adults Only) have content that should only be played by persons 18 years and older. Titles in this category may include prolonged scenes of intense violence and/or graphic sexual content and nudity.


I think the ESRB rating system is a wonderful idea, and to be honest, I think the ESRB does a great job at rating games.  My problem with the rating system lies in the distinction between what constitutes an M rated title from an AO rated title.  The only difference between the ratings from what I can see is that an AO game features explicit nudity in a sexual situation.

Let's compare Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas to Leisure Suit Larry: Magna Cum Laude for instance.

Leisure Suit Larry features graphic sexual content and implicit sexual content.  However, it scored an M rating because censor bars mask the explicit nudity.

In addition to its M rating, it has the following descriptors: "Mature Humor, Nudity, Strong Language, Strong Sexual Content, Use of Alcohol"

(The uncensored version of the game, which is rated AO, has the same descriptors by the way.)

Unfortunately, the ESRB website only features the new AO rating for Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas so we'll need to infer what it originally was by comparing it to its predecessor, GTA: Vice City.

GTA San Andreas: "Blood and Gore, Intense Violence, Nudity, Strong Language, Strong Sexual Content, Use of Drugs"

GTA Vice City:    "Blood and Gore, Strong Language, Strong Sexual Content, Violence"

Ok.  So "Nudity" we definitely know wasn't present in the original M rating of San Andreas.  (The "Hot Coffee" mod depicts nude females in sexual situations with the main character.)  The "Use of Drugs" and the "Intense Violence" were probably already there.  (Although I find the "Intense Violence" descriptor a bit odd since I don't believe the game is any more violent than its predecessor.)  Going back to Leisure Suit Larry, we can see that it also features "Nudity" as a descriptor, and in my mind, has far more sexual content than GTA San Andreas.  The single determining factor in the ratings of each game is that one has censor bars!  That's utter bullshit in my mind.

Here's what I propose the ESRB should do.  The M rating needs to be slightly redefined, and the M rating also needs to have its age restriction lowered to 16.  (An age difference of a year to buy a game that features the same content sans censoring bars is stupid in my opinion.)  M rated games should no longer feature "strong sexual content" but rather "sexual themes"/"crude humor" or something that merely implies the idea.

My revised definition...

MATURE
Titles rated M (Mature) have content that may be suitable for persons ages 16 and older. Titles in this category may contain intense violence, blood and gore, implicit sexual content, and/or strong language.

According to my revision of the Mature rating, Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas would still be rated AO, but I never said that I wouldn't want it otherwise.  The problem with AO-rated games is that public retailers don't want to touch them with a twenty-foot pole.  (There are many reasons for this no doubt, but it would be nice for them to be publically available somewhere.)  What cracks me up the most, is that the GTA series is a hot seller, so I am wondering how companies will try to reneg on their policies to put the game out on the shelves.  Hell, Wal-Mart doesn't stock most M-rated titles, but they reneg on the ones they think will sell well.  I can just imagine their response to the ESRB re-rating GTA, and it brings a smile to my face.  :)~

Anyhow, to summarize my points that have nothing to do with any of the above argument...

a.)  Rockstar should keep doing what it's doing.
b.)  Take 2 Interactive is composed of assholes if they think the mod community is to blame.
c.)  Nobody really bitched when a South Park cartoon was left on the disc of one of Tiger Woods games for Playstation.

The problem as I see it is the goal post keeps getting shoved further and further back, more gratuitous violence, sex, etc, is going into games like this than are really necessary or in good taste.  Ok, it's one thing to gib bodies in quake 2, or have a bit of slap-stick comedic "blow stuff up" humor, but when it's too close to what goes on in real life, this is where I start to see the lines blur between fantasy and reality.  War games are one thing, but glorifying crime... I've never liked games like this. I remember Kingpin being marketed with "realistic exit wounds" as a selling point, and it sickened me then.

That being said, there's the other side of the coin, which is the important one.  If someone makes a "Mature" game, or even an "Adults Only" game, then the regulations need to be enforced if they're going to be worth a damn.  Otherwise it's pointless.  If "Joe Gamer under 17" can walk into the local store and buy a copy of whatever they want, then there's no use having a rating.  Also, if parents are letting 13 year old kids play games that are way beyond their maturity level, and you know this happens on a regular basis, that too is part of the problem. ( "Letting", in this case, includes being ignorant of what the child purchases or pirates without the parent's knowledge.)

I see it as the same trend movies and television have taken.  I compare the modern movie ratings with how they were over 20 years ago.  What is permissible in a PG-13 rated movie now used to warrant an R, and what's in some R movies would have qualified as an X rating or worse.  The more "permissive" society gets, the more raunch and bad behavior is going to accompany it.  Shambler's right about bullies.  It used to be parents, teachers, and adults kept them in line, but now everyone's clamoring about their "rights" all the time and nobody straightens out the bad eggs anymore.  If you let the filth in, expect to smell the stink from it.

I could go on ranting about how civilizations fall into decadence over time, but that's drifting a bit off topic.  I know companies like Rockstar are going to put out crap like GTA, and I'm not surprised they and Take Two are trying to pin the blame somewhere else.  It's all about money.  Historically people have stooped to the lowest lows to get it - drugs, prostitution, theft, murder...  This, to me, is nothing really new, it's just infecting a new medium - pandering the same wares digitally instead of in the real world.  Consider what's in the package they're selling, is it any real surprise they'd blameshift?

I can see the news now...

J/K :D :shifty:

Very funny. :shifty:

Fair do, Sham. As a victim of bullying in primary school, I can see your point. I just picked it up wrong.

Crime sims are not something I have a problem with generally (as many have probably guessed), but they aren't the kind of games I would want kids playing. I come from a neighbourhood where parental apathy reigns supreme. I've seen 7 and 8 year old kids coming back from the shops with SanAn in their hands. That scared me even before the whole hot coffee thing came about. In the UK games are subject to exactly the same ratings system as movies (The British Board of Film Classification), however you will only ever see a BBFC certificate on a 15 or 18 rated game. All of the GTA games are 18 rated, whereas the likes of, say, Doom is a 15. The ESRB ratings seem a bit ambiguous.

I don't feel that the GTA games are particularly realistic, but they are highly satirical in their approach. The real appeal of the games for me is that you have so much freedom to do what you like and there's lots to do. Many a night has been spent around the games at my gaff with a few mates and a few (more) beers, taking turns to try and pull off the most spectacular car chases and stunts. That said, we are all adults and can appreciate it for what it is.

As for Take2 and R*, they really need to grow a pair of balls and own up. The GTA modding community is a large one, and the implications of their "wasn't us" statement has the potential to cause even more damage than is already done, especially if the Feds are involved. If they weren't responsible for the hot coffee code, then how come it can be accessed on the PS2 version with an ARMax? The whole affair sickens me.

Aye, they wrote it didn't they?  It didn't just get in there on its own.  Imagine if someone like Disney had put hentai on one of their DVD's and "forgot" to remove it and it was "discovered" the same way GTA:SA's porn scene was.  What do you expect would happen?

Nudity in Disney film article (http://ultimateavmag.com/news/10339/)
 :)~

oh and here is what is on the originally M-rated San Andreas box....
Mature 17+
Blood and Gore
Intense Violence
Strong Language
Strong Sexual Content
Use of Drugs

*falls over*

Did somebody mention "Fight Club"?

I would die laughing if that happened.

actually , if anyone has that movie of disney , you can find the pic at where the bird is diving down the building with the 2 mice on his back .
On the background you can see the naked woman trough the window.

:)

PlanetDoom has up a rather funny comic strip about the GTA incident.
http://www.planetdoom.com/features/comics/...omtoon_26.shtml (http://www.planetdoom.com/features/comics/doomtoon_26.shtml)

Good comic!

Well they're releasing a patch now that takes the porn content out of the game.  Nevermind all the publicity they've gained out of this...  I've had some suspicions that this was left in deliberately for that kind of purpose.  Scandal has always been a way to gain attention.  Just look at Martha Stewart.  She's getting higher ratings now that she's been in prison than beforehand, nevermind the fact that it's sickening people watch her program at all...

Let's face it.  Mankind is doomed.

That was hilarious! Imps are they? Great strip!

Footman beat me to it. You da man, YOU DA MAN!!!

*ahem*

I'm actually a fan of the series, if only for its period tracks, vehicles, and storytelling (speaking of which - do you fault classics like "Godfather" for "glorifying crime"?), and this brouhaha is so ridiculous it warranted an appearence on the Daily Show. It takes SEVERAL decisions to make this "Hot Coffee" stuff happen: First you gotta buy the game - the PC version, no less; then you gotta install the mod; and THEN you apply a nude patch for the whole "experience". Anyone who's determined enough to do all that is probably some really horny and desperate adolescent, and frankly it's best to let boys be boys. Most others would buy the console versions, anyway!

It's on the console versions as well.

Assamite:  Indeed, I wouldn't care about it either, except for the fact that Rockstar and Take Two are taking the low road and denying responsibility, making it sound like modders are to blame when they're the ones who left the content in to be discovered in the first place, and it's not that they're blaming the specific modders, it's that they're making it out to be the mod community in general that's to fault.  That's what peeves me.  The last thing we need is some Federal jackass wanting to regulate video game mods with ESRB ratings and other crap like that, or shutting mods down completely.  That's what has my feathers ruffled over this.  Otherwise I wouldn't care, other for some mild amusement at the situation.