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http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/03/1...s.ap/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/03/18/iraq.protests.ap/index.html)

If you did not know, there was a global protest against the war on Iraq today. People shouting against it, iraqi people saying that can't return home because of the war, the usual.

These people are right about this whole war being based on lies, but then there's also the other side of the thing that people forget. This war is a war for the defense of the developed world. Think about it : if they hadn't invaded that region, things would most likely be different by now. If they hand't invaded that region, the developed countries would be in a pretty bad situation, mostly because these countries depend on oil.
Of course that I find it completely absurd that they started a war with a bunch of lies. And I also find this situation completely unecessary. If the developed countries had... developed all of these new fuels (like hydrogen engines), this war would have been unecessary.

Ah well, hopefully oil will run out sooner or later.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/03/18/D.../D8GE9EO81.html (http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/03/18/D8GE9EO81.html)

Yeah, I've read about it.  Lies?  The only lies were from Saddam Hussein.  From the recent disclosure of captured documents in Iraq, only members of Saddam's inner circle knew for sure there was no active weapons program.  That is, of course, unless you believe all the documents are US fabrications (I'm sure some people will believe just that).  Assuming the documents are true, there's no way the "Bush lied!" charge can fly since nobody - including intelligence agents from Europe and the UN inspectors - knew that it was all a ruse.  Launching an invasion based on faulty intelligence is just that - launching a war based on faulty intelligence.  It does not equate to a lie.  The only way Bush could have lied is if he somehow knew the Iraqis had no WMD's ahead of time, which would make him either the best psychic in the world, or else the smartest person in the world since nobody outside of Saddam's inner circle knew.  I know nobody can buy that Bush is some kind of genius since he is considered an idiot by many of his opponents.  I'm sure some people out there will buy that somehow Bush did know because Saddam was "taking orders" and it's all part of some grand conspiracy "since the US set Saddam up in the first place..."

These people need to get a life.  It's done.  It's over with.  There's no going back.  Why the hell don't these people put their energy to some kind of constructive use, like helping rebuild Iraq, if they're so ticked off over the US invasion?  I forgot, a lot of them don't even work, or are getting paid to protest by Communists and other anti-US interests.  God forbid they do something constructive.  Really, either accept it, help out, or else STFU.  That's what I have to say.  Whining and protesting about it at this point does nothing except to encourage Al Qaida in Iraq to build more roadside bombs and kill more people - mostly Iraqi civilians.

It's funny how the only time these people bitch is when it's the US doing the killing.  They don't seem to mind too much when the terrorists do.  I say if the world wants to see imperialism, let's bring it on.  Let's use the US military in a full Roman conquer and kill mode.  No more smart weapons, no more evacuating civilians out of a city before doing house-to-house sweeps for terrorists.  Let's burn and pillage, rape and plunder!  Let's spoil and loot and nuke people back into the stone age!  Let's machinegun people en masse and burn their bodies!  Maybe then people will have something worth complaining about.  Tell me, do you think any of these idiots with the painted faces out there burning the US flag have a clue what a real, full-scale war is like?  Because if the Al-Qaida types are allowed to have control, that's exactly what you'll see, except it won't be the US doing the killing, it'll be Mohammad's Holy Army of the Great Jihad or whatever they decide to call themselves.  Throw in the People's Republic of China for good measure, maybe even Russia, and any other power-hungry entity that the presense of the United States military keeps in check with the threat of annihilation.  Think back to WWII, the Nazi death camps, and the imperialist expansion of Japan that the US military halted.  These people should be damned appreciative that they're not speaking German and Japanese right about now.  Damned ingrates!

I've protested the Iraq war since the day it started. Maybe invading it was ok, who knows.. but this whole turning Iraq into a democracy thing doesn't fly too well with me. I firmly believe that in order for something to work, you have to want it in the first place. Invading the country and dismantling the current government, no matter how corrupted, then offering democracy doesn't work... yea sure they're making constitutions and all that jazz, but do they really want it? I doubt it. I think the ones who are are just saying 'yes' to move things along and get us out of there. But even if they did, it wouldn't last long in that area anyway... Seriously, look at the surrounding countries. Nobody over there likes the 'western influence'.. they never did. If we want this crap to work, we're stuck there for a few decades at least.

Oddly enough, Hussein was the only person holding that country together... be it by an iron fist and ruthless methods or not. Look at the country now... you have the Shits, the Sunnis, and the Nerds all fighting over it. Forcing them to stick together and work it out diplomatically isn't going to work.

*didn't read the link posted.. just flying solo. And yes.. I become more anti-US the more Bush is in office. I should move to Canada, can't be any worse*

 :offtopic: I wouldn't mind speaking German... I'd like to actually. I think it's an interesting language.. took it for a year in high school, but never followed up on it. :)  :offtopic:

Exactly. Some people can't be ruled by a democracy. They evolved into a dictator, let them stay with a dictator, no? And yes Phoenix, this whole "FUNK US" is quite stupid. The US has been saving the developed countries ass for a while now, but it seems that noone understands that. And why don't these guys protest against Al-Qaeda? Maybye because they're idiots! They also kill damnit! Ask them to lower their guns too!

It seems the civilized world will be conquered once the US stops this war.

Yes people, stop bitching and whining about this. We all know Kennedy was killed by Lee Harvey Oswald, STFU about it. No more questions, no more conspiracy-nut stories. Forget it already, it was a long time ago.
Or wait, what US gov. coverup story were we talking about again? Man it's hard to keep track.

Nobody really wanted aqueducts, paved roads or republican goverment but they learned to like it once the Romans had shoved it down their throat at knife point. I personally belivee Iraqs proublem could be sovled by a 3 state solution ( Iraq isnt a real country anyway so theres no reason it should be a single state) but saying things like "democracy wont work for everyone" isnt helpful unless you have a better idea.

Look, democracy may or may not work, but, here's the thing.  If you believe something is good, you want to share it with people, and give them a shot at it.  If they screw it up, it was theirs to screw up.  That's the whole point.  With democracy, you do have a choice.  Under a dictatorship, you have no choice at all.  Saying that control under a dictator is better than chaos under freedom seems rather strange to me.  You might want to discuss that topic with people who have lived under actual dictatorships and oppressive regimes sometime, and see what their opinion is.  Try someone from Poland or Romania, perhaps?

As for whether or not Arabs want it, well that's up to them.  The question is whether or not you think they deserve it.  Do all humans deserve the same rights, or are we back to "they're not smart enough" or "those people can't ever get it."  Why?  Because they've been stuck in a rut?  How are they ever going to think differently if they're never given any alternatives to dictatorships and Islamic law?  Nobody has ever tried this before, so you can't say it is doomed to fail.  Perhaps it is, perhaps it's not, but nothing important in history has ever been done that did not involve risk and sacrifice.  That's the only lesson I'm trying to get people to remember here.  I hate humanity as a rule, and I find it rather odd that I'm the one actually trying to see the value of all human life equally.  Has this species learned absolutely nothing from its own history?  :shifty:

An Iraqi conspiracy NOT to produce WMDs? Now THAT's a strategy.  :thumb:

So much for the Smoking Gun ...

The only thing I learned from history is that the majority of humans have no value at all.. if this includes me, then all the better.

As for Arabs deserving democracy.. sure, if they want it. But no one deserves capitalism.

Are you saying nobody's good enough for it, or nobody deserves to have it inflicted upon them?  I'm not sure what your stance on capitalism is so that statement is ambiguous to me.

I'm saying it shouldn't even exist.

But.. whatever. I'm against the war in Iraq.. but I'm also against leaving. We're there, might as well finish the job. I just don't expect it to be quick... and anyone who does is.. meh, I'll save that.

"There's a lot at stake here. It's not just about Iraq.. it's not just about today's situation in Iraq. It's about where we're gonna be ten years from now.. in the Middle East.. and whether or not there's gonna be hope, and uhh.. the development of governments that are responsive to the will of the people, that are not a threat to anyone, that are not safe havens for terror, or manufacturers of weapons of mass destruction. That's our vision and our view." - Dick Cheney

That's really all I wanted to hear. Actually put me in a good mood hearing it too. I think it's going to take a lot longer than ten years tho.. so hey, let's beef up that army and prepare for the long haul.

Well there's some common ground we can both agree on.  :thumb:

Some people do deserve Socialism though just like some people deserve horse whippings.

Capitalism... socialism... they're both rotten.  They're both based on control and distribution of material wealth.  I don't like either system.  Socialism gives all the power to government.  Capitalism gives all the power to businesses.  The individual always loses.

I think Capitalism rules. We can take advantage of anybody we want and get away with it because the economy doesn't have a conscience. It's a perfect crime.

Nay, Socialism is better.  You can exploit people while telling them its all for their own good and convincing them all that you're actually enslaving them all for their own benefit.

Funny, capitalism does that too ...

Capitalism has just as many 'feelings' as Socialism does. But all systems and governents suck anyway... they're all corrupted, every one.

And what all this has to do with protesting the war Iraq.. I dunno. :)

No, you're thinking of the USSR.

Both systems, in their purist forms are both very wonderful ideas. The problem is there is one variable that always sporks it up (to which I'm almost sure I'll get no arguement from anybody) and that is man.

Wow. Do they teach you that in schools these days? No wonder everyone's so miffed about their school systems. I suggest you read some good books on the subject, and forget what they told you. It's rubbish. Perhaps a good course on what 'ideologies' exactly are and how that concept evolved/devolved throughout the centuries won't hurt either.

Yes they do, Dad.

Well in the case of Iraq, you have the problem of Sharia law.  Muslims tend to want to establish theocracies by default.  That's the problem they're having with Afghanistan right now.  They want to execute a Christian convert because converting away from Islam, according to Sharia law, is punishable by death.  This, after the country is "liberated" from the Taliban.  Keep in mind this is actually against the new country's constitution, but the country's constitution contradicts the Koran, so you have a bit of a church/state problem that rather eclipses the whining you hear about in the US.  There's a big difference between wanting to have a cross on your desk if you happen to work at a government office and happen to be Christian, and using judicial authority to enforce the laws of your religion.  Afghanistan and Iraq are interesting experiments in that democracy and western "Free Will" principles of living are meeting head on with Islamic cultures.  Can democracy survive Islam, and vice-versa?  That's the question I'm curious about, assuming Iraq doesn't spiral completely out of control.

There are many forms of undesirable government, economics, and what have you.  The question is, which kind do the people want?  What gives them the most personal freedom and quality of life?  What's fair, and oppresses the least?  What keeps the power hungry in check?  McDeth is right in that it is human nature that unhinges every idealist's dreams.  Communism works very well on paper, but historically, in practice, it's failed dismally and always resulted with tyrannical, authoritarian regimes being in control instead of the people.

Thats because people, in general, are stupid easily led sheep.  If we were to take out that part of the equation, then we wouldn't have those problems any more.  We also, however, wouldn't be human.  People have to actively try to find the middle ground between safety and government... try dancing on top of a razor blade garden

:offtopic: [KruzadeR]: "I do not refer to their true forms, i'm talking about the one used nowadays. I'm sure they are both good ideas, but they are not used correctly."


I could say the same about money. :offtopic:

Among other things, yes. :thumb: