Wirehead Studios

As the local representative for the IUS (International Union of Slipgaters) I have been called on by our members to protest in the strongest terms at the use of railguns in generations levels. In at least 2 levels fellow slipgaters have raced against stroggs to the top of the level only to find a supernail gun! Yes we have the best rockets, but the nails just travel too slow!

Moved to GenArena forum where it belongs

Sorry I put it in the wrong area. Im new to online chat etc.

Not a problem

Now, as for the nail speed, we've been considering speeding them up, and we might do some internal testing on it. However, they're 100% true to q1 speeds right now. They move at the exact same speed as the rockets.

It's just not that fast compared to the Doom and Q3 plasmaguns.

I think that the lag or ping? has a bad effect as i never seem to hit anything with them. i'm just not used to playing with lag mind, as i've only just got broardband, so if i wanted deathmatch i cranked up the reaper (remember him?) or played UT. I intend to plactace a while with Gen bots when I have time so i can do better this saturday night.

I think I've killed - maybe - 2 people with the nailgun.. Of course, I'm not very good so that might have something to do with it... ;p

tell you what looked like a really good supernailgun, the one from the classic quake arena mod for quake3. as it span, these levers flew out sideways on it and gave the immpression of fantastic speed... or am i wrong? havent played it for over a year. still, the supernailgun just does not seem to have the power of the one in Q3, even if it is 'correct' in its power and nail speed etc.

i mean the one in Q1.  tired now, time to put the strat down and go to bed

Have you seen the horror that was 99a? Rockets everywhere and everyone was Slip because they were nearly unstoppable.

Well the maps in Q1 is much smaller than the q3maps, that's why the nailes seemed to be faster.
btw i tried that classic quake mod, i did'nt like it... it just did'nt feel...quakeish enuff heh i rather play generations or if i really want to have the "Q1" feeling i play... Quake 1 ;) with mods like Tenebrae q1 kick ass even with todays graphical standards.

Shambler, in my experience, the nails are very useful when someone is chasing you or up close.  I generally don't care for the Super Nail Gun as it chews through ammo way too fast so I tend to use the regular Nail Gun and have had a fair amount of success with it.  (I love the way the original Nail Gun fires as well.  Piston-pumping > Standard Rotary Fire :P)  

One thing I try to do is to angle my shots away from my opponent yet in the same direction he/she is running/strafing towards.  You'd be surprised as to just how much strafing and angling your shots away from your opponent aids in landing a successful hit.  I know because I'm the dumbass that tries to outrun/jump over rockets, and has yet to actually accomplish such a feat without dying or becoming considerably close to death.  Hope that helps you improve your game.

I also suggest you attend as many forum games as possible as several of the regulars are insanely good at Gen or just a general blast to play against.  The multi-class aspect really helps you focus in on building certain skills as well.

Reboot's post is correct. It's not the nails that are slow, it's the scale of the maps that make them SEEM slow.

Kain is also correct. The SNG is not a long-range spam weapon. It's a mid range 'leading' weapon.

Nails can be used much like the strogg hyperblaster. Not very effective in most head-to-head combat situations, but useful for delayed shots. Just pump a few into the hallway you expect your opponent to pop up (in say, a 1v1) and use it as covering fire. Worked wonders for me in Q2 1v1 games (especially on q2dm3, and especially when playing against people that weren't expecting my weird style of play :)).
Anway, slipgate == shaft+rocketlauncher, the rest has always been.. well.. fairly useless :]

i dont like depending on the RL or shaft when playin slipgate..i usually stick to grenades or the nail guns..but , to me, skippy's dont balance out like they did in Q1. i know everything is close to the original..but..i dunno, it just seems..off

Not depending on the RL as slipgate is like not using the rail and chaingun for strogg.

Not a good way to win. :)

more like... not using the RL while Slipgate is like playing without a mouse.

:)

OR a keyboard!

hm... being a keyboarder is enough of a handicap.
Sometimes they can getcha!

Yes, a lot of the maps have been scaled up.  This is a long running complaint I've had regarding map conversions.  The nail speeds/damage values are exactly the same as in Q1 at present.  The Doom plasma actually flies a lot slower than the nails.  As for it being useless, have you ever run up against Teggo when he's running around with the super nailgun?  I find that I have no trouble leading people in a midrange fight in open ground with nails or the hyperblaster.  I've hyperblasted people to oblivion on Vesperas before.  You just have to know how to lead your target.

Still, we are considering a few minor tweaks to the Slipgate class, and increasing nail speed is one option on the table.

well i agree with most of the comments here and in outdoor type maps will now try out some of the generations that have 'longer range' weapons as it were. (I've been a bit shy about looking silly, having not played on line before ) but the Gen people are really decent. The only reason i got broardband last month was to play on line, and i am really enjoying it. (hanent figured out how to get a game of Q1 with telejano yet)

i cant believe im hearing a cry to make slipgater more powerful. your class has already destroyed the balance of the game be happy with that.

I don't think his idea is so much making slipgate more powerful, as it is rounding him out some. In Quake, it was all about the RL/shaft, anything else was just to piss people off, or as a ruse. I knew a number of people who'd use the instant-switch exploit between the sng and the rl. Spam some nails, and then BOOM, rocket to the face when they least expect it.

While I'm not against improving the nails, you have to realize, those rockets are absolutely EVIL.

balance - thats what i meant i suppose. yes the rocket is very powerful but it might be nice to balance the weapons out a bit. I know this is not true to Q1 though.

woodsman: you don't even play, so you have no reason to whine about anything in gen, much less any potential balance issues in gen.

Think before you speak  :)

i cant believe im hearing a cry to make slipgater more powerful. your class has already destroyed the balance of the game be happy with that.






:]

i play gen all the time. since 99a. infact i still have an installer for 99a.

Play in a forum game or two and see how classes truly play out against eachother with people - not bots - behind the characters :)

i know that the bots suck no matter what class they are.

Everybody needs to play on forum games to really see how the classes mesh and balance. If they do not, this amazing game will fold, as those who have the ability to make this (i don't) will start to feel that they are working for nothing, as nobody can be bothered to play. I also have 99a, but at the time only had a very slow connection and could not even get into a game against other people.
Last Saturday there were 3 people on the Euro server. 2 of us were getting hammered but that was not the point. I intend to support this mod anyhow i can and will always play (unless I have a gig with the band) and if I feel that something needs ajusting I will try and bring it to the atention of those who plan and make desisions on this amazing mod. It is 5 times as good as Quake3, and it is easy to see why.

The strength of the Slipgate class really depends on map layout. On a tight map with several armor pickups and easy access to a RL, the slipgater is strong. See Overwhelming Hostility.

However, on wide open maps with long distances to a RL and armor from spawn, the slipgater is weak. See Vesperas.

Slipgate IS a tad on the strong side, but it mostly comes down to the map. Slipgaters are probably the most sensitive to map layout, with Strogg right behind. Earth and Doom have well rounded arsenals. Slipgate does not, as they're nothing without their RL and (to a lesser degree) the shaft.

Tab.Strogg + The Bouncy Map > Kain-Xavier. Slippy + Shambler.Slippy  :D  I think I became an Arena gladiator soon after the start of the map because I couldn't get any rocket shots off before dying :P

Hehe.. Sorry about that Shambler, I guess I was a bit rough on you two back then ;]

As long as I'm around to work on Generations I can assure you this will never happen.  I intend to see it finished, unless God wills it otherwise.

and if he DOES, we're gonna have words him and I... :P

I'm not one for making Slipgate more powerful than the others, but I do agree with Shambler. The nails do seem extremely slow... even when compared to the rockets. I've been saying this ever since I started playing Gen. :)

I think has to do with the size of the model... the nail spike is kinda big, and seeing a dozen or so flying through air makes them seem slow.

I do agree with the map size making them seem slow as well.

And as for people that think Slippy is a two weapon wonder... I'll just say: Grenade Launcher. u ph33r teh spam! It's effective, and fast firing... excellent weapon to use when retreating around corners and such... or spamming a crowded area since it shoots faster than the rocket launcher. :D

Yes the size of the nails is too big. they are supposted to be nails, which from memory should be flahettes (English word this dyslexic welshman cannot spell)  which are much thinner than regular bullets of any caliber. They must be seen, but should be smaller?

Tabun, thanks for the lesson. Ill play against you anytime. setting an example is not the best way to teach, its the ONLY way. these days for my sins i teach wookwork in Sec Ed and my skills as a stringed instrument maker make this possible. My point is that you cannot learn much from weaker players. i learnt what i know from the reaperbot and UT.

If a load of new players join soon its my fault. im trying to get  some of my students to try the game!

Shambler: Agreed. Everything I learnt was from getting my arse kicked. Severely.
I've been trying to get some people to play Gen, by my friends suck. One popped round 2 weeks ago though :]

On the nails: Nine inch nails.. i don't know about you, but nine inch in my pants don't look small to me, so neither should the slippy nails ;]



Hell, I intend to see it finished even when god is firmly against it ;]
Don't worry about 1.0 not making it!

:offtopic but couldnt resist...

You'll have to excuse tab, he's a Dutchman, he constantly makes these mistakes...

How many times do i have to tell you Tab, the english system and the metric system are different... 9 Centimeters is NOT the same as 9 inches...





hehe BURN!

Weak.
Predictable and weak.


A short semi-explanatory writ for those unable to comprehend simple truths:

#1. Let's say one is not likely to lie, and will only do so when lives are at stake.
Sparing a long and dull extrapolation of the facts: There is a 10% margin of error, seeing as how lives are not at stake, yet danger may arise when the word 'burn' (in caps) is falsely used. #4 is one of the aspects in said reasoning.

#2. One who does not have the proper tools, will not brag about them, provided #1 holds.

#3. An inch is 2.5 cm. for those not in the know. However, unlike many of you US peeps seem to think, we Dutchies are masters in adjusting to those unable to learn about foreign metric systems, languages and concepts. Thus it is possible for a Dutchman to use foreign measures, words or tools, for example, and do so without err. Ofcourse, some may not, but then again, how some of the human population in general is able to breathe in light of their IQ, is still a mystery to me.

#4. Phoenix may claim to be a bird, but I've never claimed to be human. Keep that in mind at all times, thank you.



You are forgiven both your obvious ignorance of the facts, and your prejudice. But for a BURN, you need FIRE. So stop lighting matches in the blizzard :P

Guys, its not the size of the weapon, its where you point it....at least in Quake that is. I prefer the RL as it makes me feel so complete, as it were......

Wish I'd had a teacher like you when I was in school.

I teach in one of the 12 worst schools in england (according to the national papers) but even though a large percentage of the children are mad, there are some who, dispite all the peer pressure try to listen and learn what I have to teach them. I'm only glad that none of them have a railgun or a nailgun otherwise i would have died years ago, with no chance of a respawn. Quake for me is one method relaxing, (guitar playing is the other) and I am at a loss to understand why so few people play Generations over normal Q3, unless its because they just don't know about it. Could we advertise somehow?

don't know , did you make that  13x13meters generations arena loga and hang it outside the schoolwindows ?  :P

no seriously , he has some point , I cant keep spamming the gamespy arcade channels forever .

agreed! i love that weapon..as well as any grenade launcher. but, i must confess, im really startin to like the strogg hand grenades, those thing owned in q2..and they do in gen  :D

Accourding to "the deathmatch manifesto" (Robert E. Waring 1996) a nailgun fires Flechettes (right spelling this time!) which are "small pieces of titanium or stainless steel with little fins on the back end" (quote). that are driven by 1 cubic millimeter (25th of an inch to our american cousins) of metallic hydrogen. Now this is not exactly discribing the Q1 nailgun but a real weapon i know, but it does show that the nails are little itsy bitsy things. rather than being 9 inch long. I think the name of the band has added to any confusion here.

Well, you know, I can always redesign the model to make it smaller but more visible.

Ive just been looking at:

http://www.wireheadstudios.org/gallery/vie...203&id=shot0151 (http://www.wireheadstudios.org/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=forumgame112203&id=shot0151)

and they do look big, but everything in Q3 is kinda big, its the style.

I don't care so much for official defenitions and such in this case. All i know is there's a HUGE 'NIN' on the nails ammo item skin in Quake, and that means something to me ;]

...and why do we discuss the size on the nails!? does it matters? this is not a combat simulator you know.. the nails looks fine to me! and you're supposed to see them.. i don't want an almost invisible nail, i do want to see them comming.

Reboot has a point. Their size is fine, for me.

I think that they could use a new skin and they need to spin!

It's all good with the slipgaters.

Heres the run down on how to use their weaps:

1) axe: Best to get a berserk with this, or if you se a bunch of players duking it out in a small room, let them damage themselves awhile and then jump in their swinging that axe. Still good to use berserk though :)

2) shotgun: a great fleeing weapon, use this at close to medium range against a few targets that won't stop following you.

3) super shotgun: I call this the conventional party crasher. Use the same way as the axe (-the besrsek) and go into a small room brawl guns blazing

4) nailgun: This is best used at semi-short range on unsuspecting opponents, that way you get some shots in before they respond.

5) super nailgun: This is the super fleerer. If you have a medium sized group on your a$$ then let them have an occasional steady stream of nails.

6) grenade launcher: Hmm.. never used this much. Best to find a small to medium-small room and use it flush out players, if they don't move then too bad for them :evil: .

7) rocket launcher: This may not be as powerful as Doom or Strogg rockets, but they are fast as hell. Also since they are't as strong you can do rocket jumps without sacraficing too much heath. Some may not agree on this but its a long range weap whether you are a camper or a runner, I say this because since it has such a high speed not much lead is needed.

8) shaft: Or lightning gun whatever the hell you want to call it. Well the last version I used was .99c and they still never added the one effect that was on quake that I call PUSH. In Quake the shaft would not just damage enemies but shove them in the directin the bolt was flowing. Either way this is one of the best "big gun" weapons due to its only way to cause self damage is if you are in the water. But that will kill you either way. It is good at any range


Also Those at wirehead, Pho Tab anyone you never really took my suggestions too seriously but please add the PUSH effect to the Slipgate weapons that had it.

Thanks.

someone apparently hasn't played the recent beta

And just for the benefit of those claiming that the nails are too slow, just change \cg_fov to 100 and you'll see just how accurate they are. 'Nuff said.

turning your fov up will make everything only look faster  ;)

Not as powerful?  They're TOO powerful.  Q1 rockets have a VERY severe damage curve, and the radius calculation puts the splash a lot wider than it really should be.  Compare the source code to Quake 2 and Quake 1 and you'll see that I am not fabricating this.  Not also that rocket jumping ALWAYS does half damage, regardless of which RL you're using.


I used the exact same damage and knockback code as in Quakeworld.  The shaft does indeed push.  I've held people mid-air against walls with it before.

Sorry, going a bit off topic here, but...
Nice to see another Brit, and even better, another welshman! :D
GG Shambler :P  

Anyway, just to make my post not useless spam:

IMO it's not that the nails are too slow, its the utilisation of them.
When I have to use the nailgun, I tend to expect them to fly faster. Which catches me out, and thus I tend to lose a scrap.
If i force myself into the mindset that NG's arent for mid-range, but rather for spamming into faces of foes hellbent on making a frag, while I run for my life; then i might have more success. As I sometimes have had, just by luck.

I originally started this tread because whenI ran to the top of the bouncy map, all I found was a SNG! What a let down. Same for that Q2 map, the remake, with the railgun that you have to get thou a water tunnel to reach. I like the SNG, but why does it seem to be the equivilent of the railgun? surely the RL should be at the top if you are a slipgater.
Just my thought.

The railgun originally gave a SNG.  We changed it to give a rocket launcher in 99b.  Bear in mind the Slipgate rocket launcher was not coded correctly during 99b, and was changed for 99c to be closer to Quakeworld in its behavior.  The problem arose with that was that rocket launchers are ALREADY common in Q3 as it is, and it became turbocharged in 99c.  Add to that the fact that Slipgate gets the same ammo from the grenade launcher, and you now have his most powerful weapon spawning for two common weapons (rails and rockets) as well as getting ammo from three sources (slugs, rocket boxes, and grenade boxes).  This meant you NEVER saw a Slipgater without a rocket launcher and a backpack full of bombs.  It was killing gameplay balance during beta testing, so it was changed back to a SNG when 99c was released.

Gen does have situations where one map will favor one or two classes over another.  Bouncy is one of the few maps where the long-range gun is supreme over that spamcannon of a rocket launcher.  Besides, there's already a rocket launcher on the map.  Slipgaters have no trouble getting frags there.  They just have to stay down in the trenches a bit more to slug it out, as opposed to perching up top and firing down into a crowd.

Yes, but Q1 has a slightly higher default FOV than Q3 anyway. Try them side by side and you'll see what I mean.

I'm new to Gen so have been sticking with what I know best, but I see what you mean and understand. It will give me the incentive to try other classes a lot more for some maps, although deep down Q1 has always been my first love. (after Helen, my Banjo playing northumbrian fishermans daughter, I better say, in case she reads this)    :)

When you're up for it, try the random class mode for a bit. I don't think I'd like Gen as much without it ;]

Random class is a blast!

Can't play this saturday, due to a gig, but I will give random a go next time.

The last beta I used was .99a. Also I undrstand the balance problem, but the difference between an unbalanced game and an unskilled player is very thin. If you were to make all classes have the original phisics (speed, armor, damage, jumping, etc.) that would definitally lean more towards skill based combat insted of ballanced combat. The kind of thing you would have SP. Or MP if you wanted to attract hardcore gamers. Also the only reason doom walked on water was because at the time there was no such thing as swimming in first person shooters. And he couldn't look up or down because of the game not being 3D as everyone knows it is just 8 views around of a 2D creature. If you were to use a source port that had freelook you would notice if you look down from a ledge at enemies they were incredible at backbends and warping their body's shape. :D

Also jumping wasn't possible at the time either.

Mojo: balance is the key to Gen. If we left things at 100% of their original values, Doom and Slipgate would own all. Earth and Strogg wouldn't stand a CHANCE. There would be no reason, at all, to play them. Unless you just LIKE being beat.....

Also, what is speed and damage measured in? In units/sec and points respectively. Sure, you can toss all this together in one mod, but who says the values are all on the same scale? For damage it may seem obvious, since we're talking percentile values here, but if you take the armor systems in consideration, things get complicated. Speed, size and distance all seem different in the games, and using exact translations (see mapping) destroys the game. Entirely.

But I think I can speak for all of us, when I say we're glad to have you back Mojo! I haven't read a post such as the above in a long time, and frankly, I'd started to miss it.

Id software used 8 units ~ 1 foot since Wolfenstein 3D up to Quake 3.  Now, Doom moved at probably 650 units/second, if my memory is right (too lazy to look at the source right now).  He could ALMOST catch his own rockets.  That equates to:

650 units / 8 units in a foot  =
81.25 feet/second * 60 seconds =
4875 feet/minute * 60 minutes =
292500 feet/hour / 5280 feet in a mile =
55.40 miles per hour.

For reference, standard Quake 3 movement rate is 320 units/second.

This is NOT counting the wall-running trick where you can outrun PLASMA.  Imagine making Doom that fast and giving him that 100 to 300 point hand cannon from Doom II?  Even Slipgate with 200 red armor at pickup could not touch that kind of firepower and speed.  Generations would be pointless.  Skill goes out the window when one factor overbalances every other.  This is why we've tweaked the way we do.  We try to keep things as authentic as possible without destroying the game for every other class.

Well if we were gonna make it truly accurate to the originals, Strogg most certainly would NOT be helpless. I have two words for you: Power. Shield.

hahahha...put it in place of the berserk for strogg?

Hmm....that's an interesting idea...

I'm kidding!
*hides from Pho*

Well... actually, as a Strogg-only powerup, I might be able to live with that, since Strogg has no benefit from the Berserker, and tends to get his ass kicked a lot.  I could just reuse the PW_BERSERK slot.  Hmmmmm....

Whoa. I thought you HATED the power armor.

Think it out VERY carefully though. There's some maps with a BUTTLOAD of cells.

In Q2 I do, but remember, Q2 is a single-class game where you don't have Doomers and Slipgaters kicking the crap out of you at close range on a regular basis.  An "across the board" power armor I would never allow in Gen.  However, a Strogg-only power armor, like I said, I might, that is, MIGHT be able to live with.  Another option would be to implement the power screen that was only in place for the Brains monsters but had an actual player item coded.  The screen only blocked damage from the front.  A skilled player could work around that.  Still, this is just an "idea" at the moment, and nothing more either way.

The berserker is also not that common an item, and a screen/armor would be a bit more of a benefit for the Q2 grunts than just a standard medkit. Of course, you no longer get the medkit if it works as a power armor.

well we can give slipgate back the  

The Empathy Shield
Pick up the Empathy Shield and half of the pain inflicted upon you by enemies is sent right back at them!

that would keep some guys away from you , although you still take damage yourself .

OOH!! I knew something was missing from the strogger!! Power Armor (or the screen)!!!
Yes! Definitely go for it :D

omg.. that is such a cool idea :]
It should be a little less effective (or timed?) than the original, because that was insane, but very cool indeed..

O.o buhWHAAA? As if strogg can't get enough armor as-is! :P

Sounds like fun though :P

Oh, and pho: a hasted doomer is about the speed the player was in doom.

Only problem is, q3 handles gravity different, in doom you kinda stuck to the floor. It's easiest to point out in the 2fort remake in the ctf mappack. a flag dropped on the stairs is a pain in the ASS for a hasted doomer to grab at full-tilt. But that's a minor consideration. Doom moving at his oldschool speed would be EVIL, and I don't know how/if that would kill gameplay.