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http://www.guardian.co.uk/korea/article/0,...1136483,00.html (http://www.guardian.co.uk/korea/article/0,2763,1136483,00.html)

:mellow: That is extremely sporked up.  No good can come from this.

boh , its something else then the electric chair , the rope  or  the bullet .

My limited understanding of broken english read that as:
Bah, it's just something other than the electric chair, hanging, or firing-squad[for execution].

And I'm afraid I'd have to disagree with that, it's one thing to execute someone for actual crimes, but:Three generations. That's your grandfather, your father, and YOU because your grandfather said he didn't like the dictator's haircut, or because he recites the Lord's Prayer before bed. And this isn't execution, this is sadistic slaughter. 20 minutes.. TWENTY MINUTES of excruciating pain before dying.

I'll take the chair, the rope, or the bullet over that ANY day...

10 bucks says you wont see any europeans protesting this.

I am a european and i thing you will find that the guardian is a british paper. the clue is in the co.uk part of the address. we brits (I am Welsh myself) wrote the article for you to read.

It's a bit of a mix-up I'd imagine. Plenty of Europeans protest these dictatorships. The controversy over Iraq is simply because a number of countries in Europe were negotiating with Saddam for oil. And now that the US/etc. have more or less kicked his ass, they're having a fit because they no longer have the opportunity to get oil cheap. The PROBLEM with this, is they insist on flinging propaganda around and are trying to use the UN as leverage in this. No country can afford to politically admit that they've been dealing with a dictator, so they're looking for any scapegoat they can.

no! i want you to protest in the streets! complete with stupid signs and chants!!! :angry:

*cough*Saudi Arabia?*cough* Kuwait?*cough*Indonesia?*cough*China?*cough*Pakistan?*cough*
Sorry, I think I'm getting a cold or something...

Honestly though you are quite correct on the politicians protesting the Iraqi conflict, the people on the other hand had a considerably different view of why this war should or should not have happened


Actually the UN simply did what its mandate has been since its inception, prevent the agression of one state against another. Irregardless of whether or not you agree with that stance. The problem ultimately lies in the fact that conflicts in this day and age are not clear cut along sovereign territorial boundaries (granted the US invasion of Iraq was cleary an act of agression), war these days tends to be internal, tends to be ethnic and tends to disregard governments or boundaries of any kind. As Joseph Nye in his book "The Paradox of American Power" put it, we have seen the privatization of war, and the inability of any organization or state to effciently deal with it. I personally would favour a new world order based on limited sovereignty as long as it is equal for all countries, but as long as the United States, Russia and China are around that will not be a possibilty

We were talking about Korea, and gas chambers.  All of this is now  :offtopic

Lets maintain the topic here, we dont need another bash the US thread.
 <_<

But its just so easy when your politicians act the way they do

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/arar/ (http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/arar/)

As for North Korea, its really not surprising, but then Sadam was a bigger threat right? Makes me wonder what would have happened if the national export from Iraq was Cabbage. Would they even have bothered? Most likely no, and both Iraq and North Korea would remain intact. Instead we have one group gassing their civilians and another being shot by American troops (22 a day on average).

Its a beautiful world

Let's not forget that Saddam was no saint either.  They've found plenty of mass graves in Iraq.  Either way I find all of it disturbing, but not surprising.  Butchery and barbarism has always been a part of human history.  Mankind has merely become more efficient about it, and more detached, methodical, and scientific in its methods.  While no government is innocent of foul deeds, this sort of thing should not be tolerated and anyone who perpetrates such things should be dealt with severely.

I personally blame the government for this.
We live in an anti-ceptic world now where wars look like video games, freedom of speech doesn't exist because the things about war that they should be showing cannot be shown, blame the FCC and the CRTC. Its about controling what you see and hear, yet sadly, you are not in the Outer Limits. The dead and mangled bodies, cannot be shown, the conduct and behaviour of the soldiers cannot be shown (they are profane to say the least) and the mental impact of war cannot be shown. All that's left is simple stupid sensationalization regardless of the angle.

The CBC this year ran a story called "The Uncensored War in Iraq" They got in trouble for it from the CRTC (Canadian Radio and Television Council) because it was "graphic and disturbing". Maybe that's what this world needs is a mild reality check on "graphic and disturbing"

Oh and Phoenix, I agree in Limited Sovereignty. I agree in dealing with individuals/governments/groups that participate in genocidal acts, but the thing is, it has to apply to everyone. That means if the US farms out its prisoners for the purposes of torture they should be held just as accountable as those who actually do the torture. It has to be a level playing field not one tilted toward the US

I read a report not to long ago, talking about the numbers of wars and deaths through history, suprisingly, these last 50-100 years have had fewer deaths and and wars then at any other time in history, amazing.

Now if i can find the link, i will post it asap.

Cold War anyone?

Also even if you factor in WW1 and WW2, per capita deaths in wars have been relatively few

at first i misinterpreted what you said and was going to argue that this is because they dont want the whole vietnam syndrome to happen again(soldiers coming home and being spat on etc) ... but then i read it again and realised that you are absolutely correct in that they do it only for sensationalism and for ratings not caring for anything but their wallets..

In this world, there is such a thing as the cold, hard truth.  And it's generally not what anyone wants it to be.  So why bother showing it to anyone?  Anything that is true is going to offend someone.  So why bother telling the truth at all?  Fill everyone up with sugary sweet half-truths and fantasy, leave no-one with any time to ask questions, and for God's sake don't let anyone get bored; bored people have time to think for themselves. [/sarcasm]

If you ask me, people need to be offended.  People need to be violently offended on a daily basis.  Especially by the cold reality of things, by the things they don't want to face.  If no-one is allowed to be offended, people will go out of their way to not be offended or say something possibly offencive.  And that's how people in power get away with stuff like this.

Reccomended Reading:
Farenheit 451 by Ray Bradbury
If this book doesn't paint an accurate picture of where US society is headed, I don't know what does.

Night by Ellie Wiesel
Be offended.  Be very offended.  Otherwise, what's to stop stuff like this from happening again?

Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty
Okay, not a book.  Still.  Play the game.  Pay good attention to the story.  Especially listen to the speeches by the Patriots and Snake at the end.  VERY true, both of them.  Granted, the Patriots had completely the wrong idea, but they make some good points.

John Stuart Mills would be proud

I agree with MaxAstro here.  What I wish is that people would grow a spine and stop being offended at the WRONG things.  A kid bows his head to pray in school and gets suspended for it?  Someone want's to take "under God" out of the pledge of allegiance because "they're an atheist and don't want to deal with it"?  You know what I say?  DEAL WITH IT.  Grow the !@#!@ up and stop being a nation of sissy-assed whiners.  Just because people think different than you do doesn't mean you have a right to live an a completely antiseptic environment free from any little tiny thing that might come along to piss you off.  I'm so sick of the petty ruling the causes of the day when stuff like this is still going on in the world!

There is a large degree of difference between being offended and institutionalizing the offense.

Worlds between as far as I'm concerned. There are many reasons why PUBLIC schools should be atheistic as well as the state, especially in north america of all places.

Institutionalizing Atheism by punishing students for praying in school is institutionalizing the offense.

I'm not saying there should be sanctioned prayer in school, but freedom of religion is freedom of religion. As are the freedoms of speech and expression that gets touted all the time by these very same people who insist on condemning religious expression.

And yes, there are lines that shouldn't be crossed simply for the cause of common courtesy. As a general rule, if you don't mess with me, I won't mess with you. I don't see anything different between a teacher preaching a class of Atheists and the school punishing a student for a silent prayer.

While going through highschool, I wasn't the most popular individual because I insisted on staring the truth in the face. In every single history class, they go on and on about how much evil was caused by the "white man." And you know what's funny? most of my ancestors worked actively AGAINST this crap. So here I am, having these idealistic boobs trying to shovel guilt on my shoulders because of slavery, and the indian wars, etc.. Add to this the school-sanctioned "cultural exercises" where the only expression allowed is of a non-christian and non-white basis. All this in the name of "diversity." They have a word for that, and it's not "diversity" it's "discrimination."

I judge people on their actions and reactions, not on the color of their skin, the clothes they wear, or their religion (or lack thereof). I see PEOPLE, I don't see black, white, hindi, arab, etc. I see people, with a range of cultures, backgrounds, and customs. THAT is diversity, not this crap being taught in public schools..

:offtopic: *sigh*

I don't really have the time at the moment to properly respond to this (150 pages worth of reading for my Post-Soviet Course for tommorow) but here is the short version

First off, A kid praying in class should not get him in trouble, unless of course he's doing it so everyone else can hear. No more than imagining nude women should not get him in trouble, unless he starts yelling out descriptive words. If he wants to pray before every class he can go right ahead, but the school should not be making accomodations for his faith, he can show up 5 minutes early and put his head down and pray if he wants to, no one should be able to stop him. BUT, that being said, bringing in a specific pray time during class is without a doubt an attempt to marginalize those of us who don't believe the clouded boogieman upstairs.

So if you want to pray, pray. A school shouldn't be able to tell you to not do something like that if you want to, but don't shove it in everyone's faces because then it becomes a problem.

The only time institutionalizing atheism becomes a problem is when its taken to extremes, such as when a student has his head down and hands together quietly praying he gets suspended for it.  Since that is really no different than suspending a student for not wanting to participate in pray time or the allegence to the flag.

This is about ensuring a lack of indoctrination into a religion at an institution that is fundamentally atheistic (unless this is a private school). Its also about ensuring that if someone choses religion that the choice is made of sound judgement, and according to the state the age of concent is 18, which is beyond high school for most. In this regard what the French are doing is absolutely right.

As for the reverse descrimination thing, I'll say, as a relatively straight white male who took a trip to NYC last year I can say, I more or less agree with that assessment. Unfortunately, the assessment is idiosyncratic to American Culture. Racial Tension in NYC is something that hits you like a hammer in the face the second you leave the airport, but it is not that way everywhere else in the world. Certainly not in Canada (with certain exceptions since we still have enclaves). The point I'm trying ot make is that the model I speak of, of relative complacency can be achieved, but for some reason you Americans can't seem to get past your history, and I say that for both sides of the arguement

Back to the topic on hand

Gas chambers == wrong

Yes, and that's what we all should be getting offended at here.  I'm seeing a rather disheartening lack of outrage about this...  I can understand myself being this way, but is everyone else really that jaded?

"Go back to bed America, your government is in control again.
Here, here?s American Gladiators.
Watch this, shut up.
Go back to bed America, here?s American Gladiators. Here?s 56 channels of it.
Watch these pictuary retards bang their f***ing skulls together and congratulate you on living in the land of freedom..." (Bill Hicks, again. Yes I am a fan.)

I come from Northern Ireland, recently dubbed "Race Hate Capital of Europe", a place where bigotry is widespread and in many cases actively encouraged, a place where terrorism is still ongoing, a place where people are chastised for taking their children to school along a certain road because the residents follow another religion and don't approve of their street being given 'a bad name', and a place where elections ultimately make absolutely no difference at all. I'm not comparing Northern Ireland with North Korea, but you get the picture that it's not all that great here.

I agree. The truth hurts. Why shouldn't it? What hurts worse, though, is living a life of ignorance only to wake up one day and realise that the world isn't as rosy as you thought it was. There are some sick mofos out there and a lot of shit going on that they don't want you to know about. What gets me is when I'm treated like an absolute nob by the government and the media telling me about how awful it is in Iraq/Chechnya/North Korea/Antarctica when the shit is going on in my own backyard!

Political correctness isn't working. It does for the fight against bigotry and hate what cheese does for DVD players. I'm tired of saying things or referring to certain things in complete innocence only to be rebuked cos apparently it was an offensive statement/word/gesture. I'm not white, I'm caucasian. He's not black, he's African-American/English/Siberian/whatever. She's not ginger, she has 'auburn' hair. Give me a break. If we keep going like this, it's eventually going to take us half an hour to say something that would normally take ten seconds. As a white heterosexual male, I am the last ethnic group that anyone is allowed to take the piss out of, and I hate it. Slavery? White supremacy? Persecution? Yeah, but that was someone else!

It is disturbing though that this kind of thing (concentration camps) still exists, but back to Woddsman's point, and this applies not just to Europeans, but to anyone who isn't North Korean, they're over there, we're over here. Protesting about something that's going on over there while we're still here isn't going to make the blindest bit of difference. The NK government isn't going to care, is it? It's like Robert Mugabe saying, "Oh dear, I'm going to have to resign because England refuses to play cricket with us!"

It does raise the question, how can we end this madness?

(sorry for the double post, coudn't edit the last one for some reason.)

It would be nice if the UN could pressurise the NK authorities into wising up, but the UN hasn't had much weight left in it since roughly March 2003.

Blowing them up comes to mind.

Yeah. Get yer biosiut on, winter's comin'...

Then by all means tell your government to deal with the extremists in your own country before messing up others. Tell them to stop supporting the Putin regime in Chechnya (another For-Oil program), stop selling weapons to dictators like you did in Iraq, and stop messing with the Polar Bears with your global warming! ^_^


AHAHAHAHA, maybe in America, but the only person who lost any credibility in world politics since March of 2003 is the United States for making up ridicilous stories of fictious weapons programs in order to tap the natural resources of countries that do not belong to you

The only thing that the Iraqi war has proven is that UN Weapons Inspectors work

Thread closed, for obvious reasons. :offtopic