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Author Topic: Quit Smoking or be Fired?  (Read 19297 times)
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Moshman
 
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« Reply #20 on: 2005-12-25, 07:35 »

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ban it all. im tired of the money wasted on ciggarette smoking idiots that end up with emphysema, heart attacks, cancer and more. imagine if even..

Unfortunatly it is not illegal to be an idiot, or a complete mental *ahem* did I say that out loud?  Slipgate - Smile
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Angst
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« Reply #21 on: 2005-12-26, 02:43 »

Yes, let's ban smoking because it's addictive and controls your life.

While we're at it, let's ban caffeine and alcohol; maybe even move on to obsessive and/or habitual behaviour.

Seriously, your friend lit up after a movie, it's not that uncommon. I can't go more than 5 hours without hitting the brick wall that is caffeine withdrawal. Addiction is addiction, and fact of the matter is, while it's good to see you care about your friend; keep in mind that it's their life to live.

Nicotine is a highly addictive substance, IF ABUSED. As is just about any addictive substance or activity. The constant use changes how your brain functions. Whether this is good or bad is almost entirely subjective. Workaholics are praised, never mind the mental and physical stress they endure day after day. You can burn out just as easily overworking as you can shooting heroin into your veins.

I've seen people who regularly burn leaves and petroleum products in their back yards, walking through said smoke without any form of respirator or mask; who then turn around and throw an absolute FIT if someone lights up a single cig. People who will actually walk over onto a neighbors property, pull the offending item out of said person's mouth, and stomp it out.

That is NOT acceptible social action, in my opinion. It's beyond rude to invade someone else's property to put a stop to a single instance of (in this case) responsible smoking habits. My friend smokes 4-5 ciggarettes a day, less than my daily dosage of caffeine by far. And I'm tired of seeing people who MANAGE said habit in a responsible fashion persecuted in this manner.

There are bona fide assholes on either side of the fence with this issue, and there are at least as many good people. As far as I'm concerned, so long as people mantain control of the habit, smoking is minor. I refuse to lay the blame squarely on ciggarette companies, or nicotine itself. It's the SMOKER who has to choose how often they smoke, and where they do it.

So lay blame at the foot of those who deserve it.
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« Reply #22 on: 2005-12-26, 03:12 »

I would take issue with the personal space invasion of someone crossing a property line (called trespassing, which is illegal btw).  The blatant inconsideration of someone burning as you said, hazardous materials is just as bad if not worse than the smoking because, in essence, it amounts to the same thing.  Bad behavior is bad behavior, and inconsiderate acts are what we are talking about here, is it not?  I would rather people not pollute at all, but short of extinction of the human species or some other drastic change, I don't see that happening.

The problem with addiction is that often times the addicts defend the behavior or seek to justify it in some way.  That also includes feeding the addiciton at the expense of others and without considering the rights of those around them.  When you put something ahead of your family, and your coworkers, and your friends - something that is harmful, costly, and utterly useless as tobacco, then that's a problem.  I will certainly lay blame on tobacco companies because they make money off other people's misery by selling something that has no practical or positive benefits.  They exist, like all companies, to perpetuate their existance and to expand through profit.  That they do it through and addiction, to me, is doubly damnable.  Someone might level the "misery" argument at firearms, but you can save a life or stop a theif or rapist with a gun, and police use them to protect themselves as well.  I figured I'd just cut that argument out before it even surfaces.

As for smoking being "minor", ever see a kid in a car with the windows rolled up with both their parents puffing away?  Think they asked for that or have a say in it?  You wouldn't like it if someone was shooting herione into their veins, and it's illegal to give them alcohol to drink... why is it legal for their parents to force them to breathe tobacco smoke when they cannot purchase tobacco at that age?  See, that's a double standard.

Anyone who thinks it's a minor thing should try to see how it feels to have a plastic bag over their head and try to breathe when the air starts getting thin.  I know 3 people who are so allergic they suffocate around tobacco smoke, and two of them are former smokers who became allergic after they quit, the third never smoked himself but grew up in a heavy smoking household and went the same way with the allergies.  Now imagine living with that suffocating sensation every public place you go, having to hold your breath going in and out doors because of the people standing around smoking, having to constantly stay aware of which way the wind blows, and having to roll up your car windows and cut the vent fan when you're behind someone.  No, I am not exagurrating either, it affects them that badly.  That's my grudge here is that it's hard to avoid exposure to tobacco smoke.  A person can choose not to drink alcohol or caffeine, or do drugs, or have sex even, regardless of their setting or what the people aroudn them are doing, but when it's the very air you breathe you have little say if the wind changes or you're in a confined space, and you're screwed if you have emphesema, asthma, or bad allergies.  It's murder on avian lungs too, which is another reason I outright hate it, the same as I hate any airborne contaminants.  I can't be anywhere near it myself, and I can smell it from a lot further away than any human can.
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Moshman
 
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« Reply #23 on: 2005-12-26, 04:38 »

Wow I've never seen so many derogotory statements in just a few paragraphs. Slipgate - WTF
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« Reply #24 on: 2005-12-26, 06:31 »

Huh?
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Moshman
 
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« Reply #25 on: 2005-12-26, 08:34 »

Collectively throughout this topic, you give a feeling of personal hatred twards anyone who has ever weilded anything that has to do with smoking. You like to use "addicts" to describe smokers, and somehow all smokers are rude and incompotent. Lots of sterotypical content.
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Phoenix
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« Reply #26 on: 2005-12-26, 10:43 »

*sigh*  Again, I have to tag a freaking disclaimer because somebody misinterprets what I say.  You're reading too much into my choice of words.  Addict is used to describe someone who is addicted to a drug.  All tobacco smokers are by definition addicts because nicotine is an addictive drug.  I am not using a derogatory term, it is a descriptive term.   If you view people who are drug addicts in a negative tone, then I think you're confusing the clinical definition of the word with the connotation of a "junkie".  Addiction is an involuntary response to a chemical agent.  A junkie just gets stoned off their ass because they want to.

I also never said all smokers are rude and/or imcompetent at any stage of this discussion.  Go back and read what I said carefully and you'll see statements like this:
Quote
As I always have to say after posting, I'm not lumping the people who go out of their way to try to be respectful with the ones who I described above, but for brevity's sake I thought I could actually make a post for once without having to add a disclaimer to it. Sheesh.

Or is it that people only like to read the parts they want to attack when I talk about something?  It seems to me you're getting upset because I have a strong opinion on this.  Are you taking any of this personally?  I dare say you sound like someone who smokes and is taking offense to what I'm saying.  Correct me if I'm wrong.  I'll be blunt and say I do hold a lower opinion of people who smoke, but it's because of how they treat people around them in relation to their smoking.  I'm sorry if this upsets you, but my feelings are based on what I've observed in regards to how smokers generally behave.  It's not stereotype, it's fact based on observation.

That doesn't mean I'm a heartless bastard though.  I understand what addictions are like, and how hard they are to break.  A friend of mine has a cousin who was hooked on oxy by a crooked doctor.  It destroyed her life, and has strained their family to the breaking point emotionally as a result.  Nicotine is a harder addiction to break than cocaine is.  I've seen what tobacco does to people.  Don't you understand it's the tobacco - not people - that I despise here?  I want to see people quit this nasty crap and get rid of it so they can have better lives!  My God, man! I said I have friends who used to smoke.  Do you think I hate them too?  Why would I still value their friendship if that were so?[/color]
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Angst
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« Reply #27 on: 2005-12-26, 11:37 »

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As for smoking being "minor", ever see a kid in a car with the windows rolled up with both their parents puffing away? Think they asked for that or have a say in it? You wouldn't like it if someone was shooting herione into their veins, and it's illegal to give them alcohol to drink... why is it legal for their parents to force them to breathe tobacco smoke when they cannot purchase tobacco at that age? See, that's a double standard.
A perfect example of irresponsible behavior, and one I cannot, and WILL not support in the least. If you can't wait until you're out of the car to light up, you've crossed the line from use to abuse.

I'm not saying that people have to put up with smokers if they don't like it, what I AM trying to say is that it's up to the smokers to regulate their behavior. The tired excuse that it's the few making a mess for the many grates on my nerves.

I take issue with the support for broad-based smoking bans because they limit the freedoms of those who do so responsibly. In most areas, when a smoking ban goes into effect, there are rarely exceptions for locations that make quite a bit of secondary business off of smokers; bars for example.

I can understand frustration in customers who don't want to deal with smokers in a bar. But keep in mind that as a general rule, smokers outnumber non-smokers there. As such, why not open a smoke-free bar? Why can't people use their own bloody freedom to MAKE something for themselves instead of stealing it from someone else?

I cannot, will not, support rude smokers; but I will not simply tolerate rude anti-smokers either. If someone responsibly imbibes nicotine, for whatever given reason, I will respect that choice. I draw the line at abuse; smoking carries risks, and I view responsible nicotine usage to be similar to any number of habits and addictions people partake in on a daily basis. I use caffeine as an example beacuse it IS as addictive as nicotine, and it's abuse can be almost, if not as damaging in the long term.

And this is the crux of the matter for me, at least.

Any form of chemical abuse is damaging, and a great number of people inhale dust particles floating about their own home that are just as harmful as anything coming out of a smoldering tobacco product. I fail to see how singling out tobacco does anything productive.

Do I smoke? yes, after a fashion. If I somehow exceed my temper, it's easy stress reduction. Certainly preferable, in my mind, to a large number of more effective forms of stress relief that involve obnoxious and easily injured coworkers. I imbibe on average 1-2 cigarettes a month, and have no troubles maintaining that limit. While I can do without the nicotine, I'm certainly happier with it on those rare occasions.

I'm not saying tobacco is harmless, I simply hold the opinion that this is more a matter of civil liberties and personal responsibility.

Paradoxical as it sounds, I believe that free will includes the right to risk harm to oneself. I don't think people need to be saved from themselves, I think they need to take responsibility for their own actions. And I think they need to be HELD responsible for said actions in order for this to occur. Quitting a habit is meaningless if the will to quit does not originate from the addict. Unfortunately, part of said responsibility involves not becoming heavily addicted in the first place.

*edit*
Slightly related rant, I'm entirely supportive of proper separation of smoking vs non-smoking areas. But I keep dealing with double standards in this arena. Smoking has no place in the office, but neither does any item that could produce a counter-productive reaction.

If smokers have to stand in the rain because it's illegal to smoke within 20 feet of an office building, maybe the women who wear strong perfume should as well. The slightest whiff of some of this stuff practically makes my sinuses collapse. To make matters worse, there's nothing I can do about the perfume because said scents, according to the supervisors, are all from a supposedly hypoalergenic brand.
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« Last Edit: 2005-12-26, 12:26 by Angst » Logged

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Moshman
 
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« Reply #28 on: 2005-12-26, 18:12 »

Pho, there is no need for a disclaimer. Calling someone an addict just because they smoke is quite blatent. Sure it's addictive, but not all people do it because it's an addiction. Take me for an example, when I was pissed off, I used to have a cigarette, and that calmed me down, but I never smoked because "I needed one". Granted I don't touch them anymore, It's been at least 4 years.  It's like calling someone who plays a video game an addict or one who uses the computer other than work. I've been called an addict for going to LAN parties. I'm sure you have a nitch about you that we could link you to being an addict. Like calling someone who is overweight a fatty because they are fat, without knowing how and why they got this way.

Try going up to someone who smokes, say your best friend and say, "Hey addict how's it going?" Or you know what might work better is their name instead of addict.

I did not skip over parts of your post. My point is just calling someone a stereotype is not going to help them quit, rather increase their stress, wheather you say it to your face or not.

I did not say that you hated them, if you read my post carfully it says a " feeling of hatred" the vibe, you know.
« Last Edit: 2005-12-26, 18:20 by Little Washu » Logged

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« Reply #29 on: 2005-12-26, 18:28 »

My parents quit smoking before but went back to it, after being smoke free for a 1, and the other for 3 years so that habit must be pretty damn strong ill stay away from it. Oh i quit drinking caffeine and i can sleep much better now, and when i drank that stuff again it gave me a headache and made me all nervous. Now other habit is quake addiction lol.  Doom - Huh?
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Moshman
 
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« Reply #30 on: 2005-12-26, 18:46 »

Ah yes Quake addiction, just don't fired from your job. :p And might I say that I love caffine with a passion. *Drinks a case a bawls
MMmmmmmm....... bawls. Ops hope my employer doesn't find out.
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Phoenix
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« Reply #31 on: 2005-12-26, 21:40 »

Well we can debate semantics until the cows come home.  Yes I would call a nicotine addict just that if my intent is to shock them into understanding that they are addicted to a drug.  I will not apoligize for calling a spade a spade.  I'm not as concerned about wounding someone's feelings as I am getting them help they need to break their addiction.  If someone were breaking a commandment, would you want to straighten them out, or would you just fluff over it and ignore it so you don't make them feel bad?  What if someone were on hard drugs like cocaine?  Wouldn't you want them to break free of it?  Understanding is the first step, and acknowledging that you have an addiction is the only way you can have a chance in hell of overcoming it.  Yes, I know not everyone becomes addicted to nicotine.   There are a rare few who are not prone to it, but the majority of people who start smoking have an extremely difficult time quitting.

As for the "stress reducing" effect Angst is describing, that's a chemical reaction within the body.  That's what drugs of any kind do is affect one's physiological state.  That's why people take Vallium when they can't sleep.  I sometimes have to take diphenhydramine because of my allergies to this wonderful pollution, and sometimes it makes me very, very loopy.  It's the closest you'll see me to a state of intoxication since I cannot and will not consume alcohol.  Other times it makes me very tired, and sometimes it does nothing at all.  That's a result of my physiology.  I do not depend on it though.  I don't need it, but it has some benefit when I'm absolutely miserable and is not addictive nor harmful to anyone around me.  I have absolutely no problem with beneficial, legitimate drugs when used responsibly and when they are regulated, tested, and researched.  I would never decry someone using aspirin when they have a headache, nor would I criticize someone who is dependent upon a medication for their survival.  A person who can't live without a heart pill, for example, is dependent upon a drug.  That's different from being addicted to a harmful chemical like nicotine.  Nobody needs nicotine to live.  It is harmful, addictive, and has absolutely no benefit whatsoever.  I find the entire concept of inhaling burning plant vapors ludicrous to start with.  You wouldn't stand in a burning house to breathe the vapors, why would you suck burning plant fumes into your lungs?  Talk about a stupid thing to do!

Angst:  I think perfume is evil myself, as much as tobacco.  Odds are you're not allergic to the fragrance, but rather the volatile oils used to vaporize said fragrance.  There are a lot of people beginning to have bad reactions to this, and they tend to, again, be those who are already prone to allergies and breathing problems.  The old perfumes did not have this problem so much because they were based on natural oils, but you can thank the chemical industry for making binding agents that vaporize more readily and cling to everything twice as much at the same time.

Phoenix can't help it.  He wants 100% clean air.  To me there's nothing better or more refreshing than clean, crisp, fresh air.
« Last Edit: 2005-12-26, 21:41 by Phoenix » Logged


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Moshman
 
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« Reply #32 on: 2005-12-27, 04:53 »

Okay here's an example. If someone was breaking a commandment would you go up to them and say. "YOUR GOING TO HELL YOU SORRY SOB!!!" That is not going to make them understand, especially one who doesn't even know what God is. They're going to say, "This is what a Christian is? Pheh, they're assholes. I sure don't want to be like that." Same with smoker you call them Addict (notice the capitalization) their stress will increase and make them want to smoke even more, it's ALL about HOW you approach things. You have to take it one step at a time, not shove it all in their face.

I know you are a realist, like you I am one as well. But there is a time to be a realist and a time to show compassion and help them with their problem. Being a realist twards someone show great hostility and then people will avoid you and your message you are trying to get across.
« Last Edit: 2005-12-27, 04:57 by Little Washu » Logged

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« Reply #33 on: 2005-12-27, 11:35 »

I understand what you're saying, and I do agree with your point.  No, I would not bludgeon a complete stranger like that.  I tend to beat my closer friends over the head when I feel they need it because they know I'm acting in their best interests when I do.  I suppose I should have made that distinction.  Slipgate - Wink
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