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Wirehead Studios > Wirehead Modifications > Generations Arena > Old Maps' Size, Player Speed
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Author Topic: Old Maps' Size, Player Speed  (Read 9400 times)
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bengreenwood
 

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« on: 2008-01-28, 16:07 »
Hi,

I've been playing around with Generations, trying out the maps, and I thought I'd give you guys some feedback, so you can make this mod as awesome as possible. I hope this doesn't offend anyone, but I've been a bit disappointed with some of the maps that are conversions of maps from old Quake/ Quake 2. Not because they're bad, but because the rest of the mod is so awesome.

Basically, I think sometimes there's a bit too much detail, when there doesn't need to be. Also I found that sometimes, the maps seemed smaller than they used to. It's hard to explain why but ultimately I think this relates to the increased detail, and because your players are moving faster than in Quake 2.

The following screenshots give an example of an instance where I thought a map seemed smaller in Generations:




So I took a look at some of the maps that came with Quake 3 and something I noticed was that they do contain a lot more large, open spaces for combat- they're bigger, basically. Now I think this relates to the points I raised above about more detail/ faster player speed meaning that the maps look smaller. I have this idea that id probably realised this (subconsciously) and made the maps bigger to keep them looking as big and impressive as they did in Quake 2. You moved faster in Quake 1 but again, there, there was less detail in the maps so that didn't affect how big they looked..

So obviously, my suggestion would be making the converted maps much bigger, using the extra power Quake 3 gives you to really increase the size of the rooms in them. I don't know how much work that would involve but there you go, I think it would be really cool and worth doing.

By the way with Return to The Edge I think you lose a bit of the original feel of Q2DM1 because previously everything was smooth, clean, etc. but in the new version it's grittier. Some people will probably prefer that but I dunno, I really liked the old style.

Again I hope this doesn't annoy anybody because I know it can be really frustrating to work hard on something, then have someone tell you they've noticed what they think are problems with it. I just mention this stuff because I really like how this mod is turning out and I think the things I've mentioned here could help you guys make it even better.
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Phoenix
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« Reply #1 on: 2008-01-28, 18:43 »
A good majority of the maps we've included in the mappack were not actually authored by Wirehead Studios.  Return to the Edge, for example, was created by Charon.  It's nearly impossible to ever get a 1:1 conversion on a map for a few reasons.  One is that the original maps are (c) Id Software.  That means we can't release a true conversion.  Another is that building a map from the ground up takes a lot of time and effort.  We have a limited number of people on the team who do map work.  ReBoOt, one of our mappers for the team, has been working on some very good Quake 2 map remakes.  If you want a good example of one of his works, check our req2dm4v2 - The Frag Pipe Reborn.  This is more in the line of what we prefer in a conversion where possible.  It's like Q2, but updated.  Spawn's q1dm4v2 - Bad Place v2 - is another example of what we like in a remake.  Tabun is also trying to throw some maps together, but he's very limited on time at the moment so his progress is sporadic (much like my coding lately).  Another thing we try to do since we obviously don't have every Q1 and Q2 dm map is to incorporate generally good maps or maps with a theme.  Something that looks like it might be a Quake1-themed map, or a map with Stroggish or Doomish textures, for example.  For these maps we have to select available maps (and there's a lot to choose from), test them rigorously for bugs, gameplay balance, aesthetics, performance, bot stupidity, relevance to the mod, and general likability.  If the map passes this testing process and seems like it works for Generations, then we have to contact the author for permission to use the map in a mappack.  We've been doing internal testing on a large selection of maps while developing the next version, as well as trying to make a few new ones ourselves.  It's an ongoing process right now.

If you want to see what a direct conversion of a map looks like, a fellow by the name of Mastaba wrote a Q2 to Q3 map conversion utility.  It may still be around on the net for download somewhere.  I think it used to be on the Mean Arena site, but I don't remember offhand.  I've used it in the past to convert some Q2 maps over for testing in Generations.  I cannot release these maps (nor would I) to the public as they are not my property.  I can legally convert them on my own machine because I legally own both games, so I've done so for testing of certain game elements - projectile physics, player jump and movement physics, etc.  One of these is a conversion of Q2DM1.  That's where I've done most of my testing, as well as a copy of Railgun 101.

Now as far as design on a map goes, that's somewhat subjective and difficult to place at times.  Making maps exactly the same size as the originals cannot work.  Bad Place in Quake 1 was very smallish.  In Generations, it would be TOO small.  The same goes for remaking Entryway from Doom 2.  Low ceiling, anyone?  Some older remakes we have are a bit too big as well.  There's a balance in size we'd like to go for in making maps.  Slightly larger than the original with some extra movement height for jumping if needed, otherwise try as close as possible to the original with updated looks.

I hope that helps give some insight into the design and map selection process anyway.  Any development-related questions are welcome and we'll do our best to answer.  Doom - Thumbs Up!
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Arnie
 

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« Reply #2 on: 2008-01-28, 20:11 »
Quote
It's nearly impossible to ever get a 1:1 conversion on a map for a few reasons.  One is that the original maps are (c) Id Software.

What about the Q1 source maps that ID released a while back, can they be used??.
« Last Edit: 2008-01-28, 21:23 by Phoenix » Logged
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ReBoOt
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« Reply #3 on: 2008-01-28, 20:44 »
To remake a map with the correct size compared to the original is almost impossible.
As a general rule you need to increase the size the size abit to be able to have a playable map in q3.
My first remake attempt wherent that successfull to be honest the map got abit to oversized so rather than increasing the size i've actually reduced it for my recent remakes Slipgate - Smile

Also when it comes to DooM its very hard to remake a map due to the fact that most maps werent made for multiplayer.

There is no legal way to use the q1 source maps for q3 as far as i know. Even with remakes its hard to know if they are legal or not, thought so far no remake has been "foxed" to my knowledge.
But it was also one of the reasons why the maps didnt get released in a package with gen, but as an separate package. (correct me if im wrong about this pho)
Thought i might ask why in the whole world whould anyone want a direct conversion map??

One of the goals regarding remakes is to capture the original maps "spirit" it should "feel" like the original but it should be an updated and better looking map than it used to be.
If you take a look at q1 maps, hell they do look really horrible textures gets tiled everywhere.

Which is also, i might dare to say the spirit of Generations it should feel like the original but look better!
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Phoenix
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« Reply #4 on: 2008-01-28, 21:30 »
The original Q1 maps were GPL'd, yes, but as ReBoOt said, why would you want to use an exact copy of the original?  It would be like making a 12-polygon grenade launcher for the Slipgater.  Sure it would look accurate to Quake 1, but it would be sporking ugly!  If the original .map files were to be used for anything, I'd say use them for a testing ground for "how can I update this old favorite?"  That's the approach we're taking overall. Slipgate - Wink

Boot:  Yes, Todd H. had expressed some concern over the maps when we first started out, thus we've always opted to make them a separate download to avoid any possible conflicts with Id.  That's another big reason I've insisted on Gen being compatible with all retail Quake 3 Arena maps.  If a problem were to be brought up and we had to pull a mappack, it would be a sucky development, but Gen will still be playable without the custom maps.
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bengreenwood
 

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« Reply #5 on: 2008-01-28, 23:24 »
Well, the copyright thing is one of the things I was things I was thinking about when I suggested significantly increasing the maps' size. And I think it would make them look more impressive, too.

Actually it's funny, I originally thought you'd need to play Generations in the old-style maps for it to be fun but it's still awesome with new-style maps anyway. That said that re-make of Q2DM2 in the preview video does look cool.
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Arnie
 

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« Reply #6 on: 2008-01-29, 17:39 »
I compiled E1m1-> E1m8 using wordpad & gtkbuild and the maps look quite good with 32bit textures.

I personally think the size is ok because some bigger maps tend to seem empty with only a few players.

Anyway I enjoy them.
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Tabun
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« Reply #7 on: 2008-01-29, 18:28 »
I really like how Gens makes it possible to "enter" the world of one game with the character, arsenal and physics of another.

It helps if maps are accurate (this is why I love ReBoOt's Tokay's Towers remake, because it feels Quake2 all over), but it's fun even in third-party maps that are not so hot, nostalgia-wise. I must say I'm one of those (the few?) who liked Q3A out of the box, for it's easy-access gameplay and smooth strategic possibilities, but Generations just adds to the mix in a serious way. There's no way to get bored with playing intense FFA, now..
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bengreenwood
 

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« Reply #8 on: 2008-01-29, 19:16 »
Well, yeah I totally agree about liking the feel of the old games (the animated Quake 2 weapons in that trailer movie are a particularly cool example of this), but I think if the maps were bigger it would feel more like the old game in question anyway. Basically because like I said you've got more detail now, and you move faster.

BTW in Generations the Quake 2 guy runs faster than he did in Quake 2 right? Or am I imagining that one?
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Phoenix
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« Reply #9 on: 2008-01-29, 20:14 »
He runs at the same speed as the grunt did in Q2 as far as per-unit speed is concerned in the program code.
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