Angst
Rabid Doomer
Team Member
Elite
  
Posts: 1011
|
I honestly can't think of anything more disgusting than a religious leader who twists said religion for political gain. Dug this up, thought a couple people might be interested: http://www.symtronic.net/~shugawz/duaagainst.swfInterested yes, enjoy, no. Sad thing is, specific as this may be, this hate is directed by ALL unbelievers. Which, as a side note, was translated as "atheists" in the subtitle. There IS no word for atheism in arabic, you're either a slave of Allah, or you're an unclean beast. They just happen to hate particular groups in order of proximity. Fundamentalism is bad in general, but these people hold a greater sway over much of the population than the political leaders of the region. This isn't just about the US, or England, this is about the entirety of western civilization. For their sakes, I hope the other countries don't forget about that. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Who says a chainsaw isn't a ranged weapon?"
|
|
|
|
Devlar
|
Unbelievers is pretty much everyone who isn't a Wahhabi Muslim (hopefully I spelt that correctly). This means egypt, iran and turkey are enemies also, a large chunck of the muslim world is an enemy.
The political leaders in those countries do not have any influence over the masses since they are all seen as dogs of western imperialists, which 99% of the time is an accurate assessment. The reason the Saudi Royal Family gives money to suicide bombers isn't because they particularly like suicide bombers but that if they do not appear to like them they can expect a coup d'etat any moment. When 90% of your population hates America, being seen as too close to them is hazardeous to your health.
This conflict isn't going to end well. I really hope that Europe does not side fully with the US, not to say that if I had a choice between the US winning and the Wahhabi muslims winning, I wouldn't choose the US, but from a tactical point of view of preventing terrorist acts, the US policies have been a disaster. This isn't something that you can solve with a really large hammer, in fact, it is the large hammer on both sides that has created the problem in the first place. The secular world should pay lip service to the US, but other than that should deal with the problem its own way.
Pretty much the only thing the video showed was that in the struggle between the leaders on both sides, the people are the ones who are caught in the middle and pay the real costs of this so-called war.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hedhunta
|
ive always held that most of the extremist muslims are not just out to get just the US, but the entirety of the western world.. its a jealousy thing imo, theyre upset cause the world no longer revolves around them anymore.. so theyre getting attention by blowing things up.. thats not to say we should ignore them, but the fact that they get so much media coverage doesnt help to get rid of them any quicker.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Woodsman
|
In feudel Japan th emperor was more of a religous figurehead than a political leader. He was more like the pope than the president. Officially the Shogun would rule the the Emperors stead as the Emperor was not to envolve himself in petty and corrupting matters like politics. Men who would claim to be men of god would do well to embrace the same policy.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Devlar
|
You think this is Jealousy??
I can say, I do not agree with you, but could you tell me exactly how you came to that conclusion?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Woodsman
|
very simply by two words. Al sharpton. oh wait you were talking to that other guy.
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: 2004-03-29, 03:18 by Woodsman »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Devlar
|
I really have a bad feeling about asking you what Al Sharpton has to do with all of this...
But as with all of my bad situations... I say... by all means do explain.
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: 2004-03-29, 04:18 by Devlar »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Woodsman
|
al sharpton is a perfect example of the currupting influence of politics on religous leaders. duh.
Yes Al sharpton is considered a religous leader thats what the reverend part means.
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: 2004-03-29, 04:28 by Woodsman »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Phoenix
|
I can sum it up like this:
"They are rich and powerful, therefore they must be evil and in league with Satan! God has commanded us to wage Jihad and bring them down! They are the cause of all our suffering!"
In the end it's really that simple. Jealousy, greed, and hatred all rolled together, and twisting of religion used as a tool for exacting control over people who would otherwise just end up going about their lives and instead turn them into suicide troops. It's not about religion as much as control and being at the top for the ones in charge. After all, if they're at the top they can make whatever rules they want and claim it to be the will of Allah.
Al Sharpton does have some relevance here. The class warfare politics that are waged in the US by black political leaders involve the same fear tactics and blame game to convince poor blacks in inner cities that all their problems are the result of discrimination by the more numerous and more wealthy whites, when in fact those they vote for enact legislation that has the effect of keeping them poor as opposed to helping them step out of poverty. If you want any proof of this, look at all the times Democrats (champions of social programs) have been in control of the legislature and look at how many black folk are still poor. The only ones who gain are the political leaders themselves, and they have no shame for what they do.
Basically it is easier to hate someone who is better off than you and blame them for your woes than it is to work hard to make your own circumstances better. Those who lead these people know this and play upon it, convincing people they are right to hate and telling them what they want to hear, then inciting them and goading them on to achieve their own ends. Any tool is fair game for this. Religion, racism, and economics just happen to be the most effective.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
  I fly into the night, on wings of fire burning bright...
|
|
|
|
Devlar
|
As for Mr. Sharpton, I believe it was Marx who said that the best way to keep a man in chains is to convince him that he belongs in chains.
So to you, the 60 odd years of proping up viscious dictators in the middle east and using them to export oil from the region has nothing to do with why they hate Americans? The fact that they have the most valuable resource on this planet yet the vast majority of their population are piss poor while the US sponsored dictator has a golden toilet, this has nothing to do with their anger toward the US?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Woodsman
|
First off Marx was a biggot so really his views on religion are terribly slanted. ( im so tired of hearing quotes from 19th century german philosophers) secondly has it EVER occured to you that its easier for arab countries to blame us for ever proublem they have than to hold thier own radical leaders (who of course would kill them if they dared to speak of it) responsible? and last Saddam's toliet was not gold only the plumbing in the bathroom was. (i know because my older brother boasts proudly of entering one of saddam's palaces and taking a crap in his golden john).
The United states DID NOT prop up every evil dictator in the arab world europe had its own part in that. While the French and the Russians were protesting the war in Iraq they were simultaneously negotiating oil contracts with Saddam so pardon me if i dont believe in the notion of pure european love for peace. The Arab world will NEVER be free from this kind of crap unless they refuse to let radicals rule them and all the blaming America crap you could barf up in a thousand years will not change that.
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: 2004-03-29, 05:13 by Woodsman »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Devlar
|
A bigot you say, so religion really isn't a manipulative force that will lead to man's destruction. Well, Woodsman, you certainly have opened my eyes. I'll never read Hagel, Webber or any other German philosopher ever again, because they are evil, evil to the core! Let me get my book burning robe on and we can do this... Anyway, now that your done your bigoted remark, lets back to the point secondly has it EVER occured to you that its easier for arab countries to blame us for ever proublem they have than to hold thier own radical leaders Sure I've considered it, but I also know that this is a response. Radical Islam is a response to the actions of others in the region. Also I ask, what other voice do they have? As much as the radical leaders are fanning the flames of violence, it seems constantly that the US gives them nothing but ammunition to do it with. (See... Saudi Royal Family, Israel, Sadam, Shah). So sure they should be blaming those radical leaders, but the US blame is justified, its a viscious cycle of violence and both groups of leaders are to blame. While the French and the Russians were protesting the war in Iraq they were simultaneously negotiating oil contracts with Saddam French Yes, Russians, what? Have you heard of the Caspian Sea? The Russians don't need to import oil, they have enough to sustain their entire country and export. As for the French, the Europeans have had a totally different relationship with the arab states for the past 50 years than the US. Have they done buisness with these dictators? Yes, of course, if there is only one person you can buy from then you buy. The difference is they didn't create the situation where those were the only people to buy from. The US on the other hand... The Arab world will not be free unless they begin to govern themselves, even if it is in a way that we may not like. It took several thousand years for westerners to escape fanaticism and feudalism (although some still haven't gotten out of either). The only way they will escape is if they do so by their own accord, and their own choice. This means a pull-out by the US and Europe from the region, but don't expect Big Oil to let you. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Woodsman
|
To view religous people solely the way marx discribed it and not on an individual basis is bigoted. As you have clearly demonstrated time and time again. I went to church for several years and i was never once taught people should be burned for being witches or that i should follow what my pastor told me without question. I was never taught that all jews were responsible for the death of christ and i was never told to hate homosexuals. I am religous but i am not a sheep as marx would describe me. Perhaps if you didnt judge religous people by a single standard you might understand them better.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Devlar
|
No book taught me that religion is evil, humanity in the past 20 years has done a darling job of that. You on the other hand should try reading another book for a change. I've read yours
Working to change the world is a whole lot better than sitting and hoping everything works itself out
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: 2004-03-29, 06:51 by Devlar »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Woodsman
|
for the record ive read alot of books not just the one.
You also seem to have spent the last 20 years ignoring the contributions of people like mother teresa and Martain luther king Jr and countless christian charity groups. (which make up 80% of charity groups in the US) When my father and his brother were thrown out on to the streets from an abusive foster home when they turned 18 they were taken in by a woman from thier church as an act of christian kindness. Today i call this woman Grandma even though i dont have a drop of her blood and am not even being legally related to her. I find myself unable to refuse people who ask for free gas at my station when they run out and dont have money because a passage from the bible "let he who has two tunics share with he who has none" springs up in my head every time. Do i even need to bring up mohat magandi ? if you really think religion has only had negative influences in the world you must not have been paying attention.
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: 2004-03-29, 07:07 by Woodsman »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Phoenix
|
I've also read a lot more books than just one. As I've stated before, I do work to make the world a better place - just not in the way you want or would expect, however what I do benefits all in ways they cannot see, and interferes with the freedoms of none. You should be glad I do what I do Devlar, as I work to prevent those who would see you forcibly worshiping their master from forcing their will on mankind.
Only 20 years, eh? I've watched your kind for much longer than that, so I would say I'm a bit more qualified to judge human behavior. As for your consistant badgering about sitting back and hoping things fix themselves, I don't have to hope. Either you will drive yourselves to extinction through war or overpopulation and the eventual collapse of your infrastructure, or God will judge mankind according to the prophecies, of which all the signs are now in place for this to happen. From my perspective the slate is going to be wiped clean one way or another, either by God's hand or by man doing it to himself. In the latter case, nature will survive and adapt and again reclaim the Earth. In the former, God's creation will be respected instead of exploited. If mankind wakes up and stops fighting wars, stops overtaxing the earth and learns to live in harmony with nature, then my goals are met. If my cycles here end and I am allowed to leave this place and live with my mate, then my goals are met, since the Earth is no longer relevant to my existance, nor I to it. No matter which of these happens I always win. It is only a matter of time, of which I have plenty.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
I fly into the night, on wings of fire burning bright...
|
|
|
|
Devlar
|
if you really think religion has only had negative influences in the world you must not have been paying attention. A Lutheran Priest helped pay for my familiy's plane ticket out of a refugee camp in Shlevik Holstein. I never said that religion could do no good, but no amount of small good deads can make up for The Crusades The Tartar invasion The Spanish Inquisition Albania Boer War WW1 WW2 Israel Kashmir Apartheid The Former Yugoslavia Northern Ireland Chechnya East Timor Rwanda Somalia And this is all i could think up in 5 seconds Only 20 years, eh? I've watched your kind for much longer than that, so I would say I'm a bit more qualified to judge human behavior. Ad Verecundiam. Drop the character, putting feathers in your ass does not make you a chicken I do work to make the world a better place Praying and Waiting does absolutely nothing |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: 2004-03-29, 17:41 by Devlar »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Hedhunta
|
Only 20 years, eh? I've watched your kind for much longer than that, so I would say I'm a bit more qualified to judge human behavior. Ad Verecundiam. Drop the character, putting feathers in your ass does not make you a chicken known pho for quite a while.. (almost 3 years now i think)... as he so put it for me.. if he beleives he is the mythical phoenix, and you cant prove otherwise, how do you know for sure he isnt? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
