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Phoenix
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http://www.gorenfeld.net/blog/Sen. John W. Warner's office acknowledged yesterday that the Virginia Republican arranged for religious activists to use a Senate office building last March for a ceremony in which the Rev. Sun Myung Moon declared himself the Messiah and said his teachings have helped Hitler and Stalin be "reborn as new persons." Take blog author's gender equality rant with a grain of salt, but do check this out. Besides being extremely disturbing to a Christian or Jew to have anyone claiming to be the Messiah, the fact that this ceremony took place in a Senate office building in front of numerous members of Congress should have everyone's hackles up. What kind of madness is your taxpayer dollars being used for here?
It gets better: http://www.gorenfeld.net/blog/2004/05/im-a...is-messiah.html
And here's his little speech from the link on that page: The five great saints and many other leaders in the spirit world, including even Communist leaders such as Marx and Lenin, who committed all manner of barbarity and murders on earth, and dictators such as Hitler and Stalin, have found strength in my teachings, mended their ways and been reborn as new persons. Emperors, kings and presidents who enjoyed opulence and power on earth, and even journalists who had worldwide fame, have now placed themselves at the forefront of the column of the true love revolution. Together they have sent to earth a resolution expressing their determination in the light of my teaching of the true family ideal. They have declared to all Heaven and Earth that Reverend Sun Myung Moon is none other than humanity's Savior, Messiah, Returning Lord and True Parent. This resolution has been announced on every corner of the globe. Anyone see anything wrong with this? Oh, and if so there's no doubt of his intentions, there's this, which preceeded this little ceremony a while back:http://www.tparents.org/UNews/Unws0304/cross_bronx.htmWe were thankful to Bishop Kim's detailed and simple observations leading us up to the Resurrection and letting go freely, prayerfully of the Cross for the Crown.... The tapping sound of the make believe nailing of Jesus with the two criminals by his side left people with a reflection type realness indicating that we have to take Jesus off his cross and finally remove the cross. So this organization says we should trade the "cross" for this "crown", and now following this the crown rest's squarely on Moon's head? What did Jesus actually say about the cross?Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people [unto him] with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. Jesus said to take up the cross, not tear it down, and this guy is now running around calling himself the Messiah, and King of Kings? This is extremely disturbing. Even if you're not a Christian, then the problem still remains that this ceremony took place inside a US government building with full knowledge of several members of Congress. Basically your government is saying "It's OK for this man to call himself God and be crowned the Messiah with your tax dollars, in your government buildings."
Comments and/or rants welcome. 
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« Last Edit: 2004-07-22, 23:16 by Phoenix »
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  I fly into the night, on wings of fire burning bright...
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games keeper
Elite
Posts: 1375
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told ya world is coming to an apokalyps .
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McDeth
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How is Europe this time of year GK?
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Beer? I'm down.
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games keeper
Elite
Posts: 1375
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belgium now ? not to bad . spain , nice and hot the rest I dont know .
come on over and we catch a beer or 20 together .
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dna
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That doesn't sound too bad GK.
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games keeper
Elite
Posts: 1375
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actually who should take more then that to taste them all , but who cares .
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« Last Edit: 2004-07-23, 08:51 by games keeper »
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McDeth
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Yea, I had enough of this shit and since beer rules, I may have to take you up on that.  |
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Beer? I'm down.
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Naoscaire
Imp
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This is from the same congress that doesn't want the Ten Commandments and such in schools and on courthouse lawns. *sigh* I'm not so sure there is a god, and if there is I'm pretty sure he hates me. The thing I am sure of is that if god picked a messiah, it's not moon. (I hope) I'd rather see Arnold as the messiah. "Hear me now and worship me later. We are going to kick some demon a$$."
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« Last Edit: 2004-07-28, 22:37 by Naoscaire »
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..::WHAT!?
Ogre
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This is from the same congress that doesn't want the Ten Commandments and such in schools and on courthouse lawns. *sigh* I'm not so sure there is a god, and if there is I'm pretty sure he hates me. The thing I am sure of is that if god picked a messiah, it's not moon. (I hope) I'd rather see Arnold as the messiah. "Hear me now and worship me later. We are going to kick some demon a$$." heh, that made me laugh... hahahaha. That really is disturbing, like congress is funding a cult or somthing. Maybe we should take Moon out? If I remember right isn't the Anti Christ supposed to appear as an important figure? He is supposed to be so endearing that the world just loves him. I don't think that the Anti Christ is gonna be this Moon guy, but for some reason I am seeing shades of that in this story, and I'm really not that much of a beliver these days.... maybe I am teh paranoid. |
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« Last Edit: 2004-07-29, 20:17 by ..::WHAT!? »
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Naoscaire
Imp
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If I remember right isn't the Anti Christ supposed to appear as an important figure? He is supposed to be so endearing that the world just loves him. Well that leaves out Kerry I think. Maybe it will be Obama. I think they are grooming him for the next shot at president. |
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scalliano
Elite
Posts: 1095
Yup, that's me
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US Congress NEVER HAD the 10 Commandments. (Talk about coveting your neighbours goods! If the rest of the world is your neighbour, then...) I'm sure the fundamentalist Christians are all over this! 2 holes in Moon's claims: 1. Jesus never publicly proclaimed that He was the Messiah, He let people make up their own minds, and 2. He never metioned ANYTHING about reincarnation. At least before Judgement Day anyway. The guy's a psycho. Of course his opinions should be embraced. As for the Antichrist/important figure issue: http://mirrors.meepzorp.com/geocities.com/...ush-antichrist/Need I say any more?* *the disclaimer cracks me up! |
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« Last Edit: 2004-07-30, 01:16 by scalliano »
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PSN ID: scalliano
The Arena knows no gender, colour or creed, only skill.
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Woodsman
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okay lets get this out of the way Jesus did infact claim to be the messiah. As the book of mark 14:61 reads : Again the high priest asked "are you the christ? the son of god?" and Jesus replied " I am and you will see the son of man seated at the right hand of power and coming with the clouds of heaven".
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« Last Edit: 2004-07-30, 06:07 by Woodsman »
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Phoenix
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The antichrist will be of Roman descent, and is a political world leader. He is not a religious leader. As much as some would like to think so, he cannot be George W. Bush.
There is also, however, a false prophet who deceives the world into worshiping this antichrist as if he were a god. There is very little information about the false prophet other than he creates an image of the antichrist in the temple at Jerusalem (yet to be rebuilt) and "gives life" to it, and performs other "signs and miracles". There's no telling who the false prophet is or of what descent he is, all we know about him is what he does during the seven year tribulation period.
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Assamite
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The antichrist will be of Roman descent, and is a political world leader. He is not a religious leader. As much as some would like to think so, he cannot be George W. Bush. I KNEW IT!!! The Antichrist is Silvio Berlusconi! He's like Moon, except in a less messianistically-insane way. If life was a comic book, Moon would be Magneto (or something), while Berlusconi would be the Kingpin. Hell, even as life ISN'T a comic book, these figures act like their comic-book counterparts nonetheless. And Berlusconi owns AC Milan. Bastard. Anyways, this Moonie business is absolutely nothing short of disturbing. Even more so is the TOTAL lack of coverage on the mainstream media. Perhaps they are on his payroll? Coming up next: Mass weddings on Capitol Hill, followed by mass genital-mutilating sexual ceremonies. Naoscaire: The Alabama Ten Commandments are as unconstitutional as this debacle, pure and simple. AND OBAMA?!?! Good heavens...  |
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Phoenix
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The problem with the whole separation of Church and State stuff is that it ends up being decidedly discriminatory against Christians 99% of the time. Proof? Look at the suit against Los Angeles to get the tiny cross removed from the city seal. Nevermind the great big pagan "goddess of the harvest" that's left in place without any objection. I've ever heard grumblings about having the city's name changed since it has religious connotations.
Seriously, can society show a little bit of maturity here? Why is it people want to wipe all traces of religion out of civilization? Here's what the First Amendment says:Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people to peaceably assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. Emphasis mine. Nowhere does it say "All religious references that individuals may find offensive shall be removed from all public property, and all religious actions that individuals may find offensive must be prohibited on public property." Removing items of historical value because they may offend someone is ludicrous. Los Angeles was founded by a mission if I am not mistaken. Are they going to remove that part from the history books too? How about the relief of Moses handing out the Ten Commandments in the US Supreme Court? How about all the other federal buildings with religious references in the structures? Here, take a look:
http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1028864/posts
What ever happened to all this tolerence I keep hearing about? We Christians are always called intolerant, bigoted, etc... Can't anyone be tolerant of us, or is it just as Jesus predicted, that we are hated of all men for his name's sake?
Many will argue that showing religious items or wording that references Christianity is violating the establishment clause. Read the amendment for what it says: Congress shall make no law. This is specific that it is in regards to Congress passing legislation. NOWHERE does it say any and all religious references must be stripped from government. That attitude has come directly from the benches of judges who have absolutely no authority to make such decisions. While it is unconstitutional for Congress to pass a law establishing a religion, it is completely wrong to deny the religious part of the heritage and history of the Unites States of America by trying to blot it out. To do so is rewriting history, and denying the truth of the nation's past to all its citizens today. That to me is nothing short of discriminatory, not just against the Christian faith, but against all Americans. History should not be revised to please intolerant whiners, and the truth should never be sacrificed just because some people don't have the stomach to take it.
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Assamite
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Silly Phoenix... Christianity remains the DOMINANT religion in the United States, and it is BECAUSE OF separation of church and state that it remains so!
You highlight the "free exercise thereof", but you kindly skimp the part about "establishing religion." The placement of the Ten Commandments on the Alabama COURTHOUSE grounds obviously ESTABLISHES a stance that the law is of Judaeo-Christian influence. NO ONE is preventing Moore to having his statue in his own property. And they sure as hell are NOT preventing him from using his faith to influence his decisions. After all, what politician doesn't (say so)? But sending a message of clear ESTABLISHMENT is not acceptable. How can the majority-Christian Alabamans exercise their pride in their faith? By building it in COMMUNITIES, CHURCHES, and inside the HOME. The State House is not the place.
On the LA case: I don't think that just because the LA government is trying to make its MUNICIPAL symbols clear of religious imagery mean it's going down and oppressing the Catholic Christian plurality, preventing them from worshipping. No, the city's decision to change the seal that THEY THEMSELVES ESTABLISHED is a state-only thing. Putting a cross on a state symbol doesn't seem like worshipping in the least. People are still free to attend Mass, hold rallies, and use religious symbols on public property. And southwestern states may still build monuments to religious figures, provided they are people- and democracy-oriented. (Father Hidalgo comes to mind. Hell, so do the Puritan Pilgrims in the northeast.)
Let me give you an example: My own state of Maryland. The government makes NO SECRET of the fact that the state was founded as a haven for Catholics. It's taught in schools, and the government sponsors historical grounds that reflect that. Still, they are ever-so-careful not to let religious symbols on government grounds. Because THAT would be establishment. That's not to say interns and assemblymen are prevented from carrying crosses or wearing headscarves! *coughFrancehack*
Shall I pull out textbooks and/or law books to show you a case-by-case analysis on state-church Constitutional relations? It would take too long to say so NOW, but if you wish, I'll make another post.
Point: using the state as a tool to sponsor religion - I'm sorry - preserve religious heritage is not a free exercise, it is establishmentarian. If you want to exercise freely your religion, you are welcome to do so. Don't want a person of a certain faith to come in your door? Don't let them in. Just don't badger the state to match your personal beliefs or offense to those with other beliefs.
It is utterly foolish to paint Christians as victims in a decidedly majority-Christian country, where the near-vast-majority of government officials are Christian, even as the law is decidedly secular. And religious heratige or not, we have a DEMOCRATIC heritage to preserve, which is enshrined in our Constitution. And in this modern world, we don't allow religion to meddle with democracy, or vice versa. Wall of Separation. Quite easily done. Unless you want to crown as savior another Korean psycho comic-book villain in Congress.
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Phoenix
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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof Didn't you read what this said? What you're going on about is purely opinion and has no actual basis in the First Amendment. All the First Amendment states in regards to establishment is that Congress is forbidden from passing legislation that establishes or bans any religion. It is judges who have made decisions purely on a political or personal basis that have twisted this to somehow mean that anything that smacks of religion is somehow establishment. No. Sorry, but you're wrong, and liberal judicial opinion is wrong. Let's get one thing clear - nowhere does the law say something has to be removed because it might give an impression or "offend" someone. I'm fed up with everyone getting "offended". They really need to grow some backbone and learn how to live with people different from themselves, but I digress... The letter of the law is quite specific in this matter. It is the decisions of these judges that are unconstitutional as they have absolutely no legal basis for their position, that is, unless you start digging through judicial precedent...
Let's see, one activist judge decides to ban the Ten Commandments from a building, then another hops on board in a completely different state and says "Judicial precedent, this guy did it!" so he can't be challenged. See the pattern there? That's how it begins. Judicial precedent in these kinds of cases is equivalent to enacting legislation since it determines how all future decisions will be made on a matter. This is exactly why judges are accused of legislating from the bench. When a judge ignores the letter of the law in favor of opinions it's time for that judge to be kicked out.
As for Christianity being the "dominant religion" in the US... I would say that's changed much in the last 40 years. Secular humanism/atheism is more of the dominant religion among people 30 years of age and less, and it tends to try to dominate by stamping out all traces OF religion. The fact that there are all these recent lawsuits wanting items of Christian or Jewish heritage stripped from every government building in the country, even when some have been there for 200 years, makes this quite evident. If Christianity is indeed dominant in the US, and these momuments are such a huge constitutional threat, then why was this left completely alone until recently? Why were so many federal buildings constructed with the Ten Commandments chiseled right into their walls? I would say it's because people are less tolerant toward Christianity today than they were 200 years ago, but then, nobody hears about anti-Christian sentiment in the mainstream press. Perhaps that's because the mainstream press is onboard themselves, hmm?
Recognizing the existance of a religion is not establishment. If Congress went to pass a law saying "Christianity is the official US religion" then I would be staunchly opposed to that since that would clearly be establishment. In fact, I think I have a better idea. Instead of kicking religious symbols out of government buildings, there should be a monument in Washington DC called the "Religious Heritage" monument that traces the religious history and heritage of the USA, with exhibits devoted to ALL religions and historical information about how they've shaped the country. |
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« Last Edit: 2004-08-26, 09:37 by Phoenix »
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