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Author Topic: "Anyone but Bush" (Al Qaeda choice for president)  (Read 20303 times)
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Phoenix
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« Reply #20 on: 2004-08-12, 11:27 »

Well you know I've never really cared if you respect me or not, that's something you probably missed along the way.  I really don't have any vested interest in politics one way or the other, or either political party.  However I do have an interest in reality, and some compassion for people.  As much as I may hate mankind and what humanity does, I do care about people and I don't like seeing any living thing suffer.  Why, I do not know anymore, but that's why I continue to try to warn people about this sort of thing, despite the flak I get for it.  You also continually mistake me as some kind of Republican or "Bush Supporter".  I've never once said I flat out support Bush for everything he does.  I oppose a hell of a lot of what Bush has done, and I've said this many times before.  Is he perfect?  No, but I certainly see Kerry as doing a worse job.  Kerry IS weak on terrorism, and foreign policy in general no matter what you've deluded yourself into believing about this.  Since the terrorists seem to fear Bush more than Kerry what does that tell me about both candidates then?  The terrorists are NOT stupid, and as 9/11 showed it is foolish to understimate either their will or their capabilities.

As for sources, hey, take it or leave it, but at least I'm quoting what's being reported on the major media outlets (and before you pounce on that - no, I don't believe everything I read and I read a lot more than you think I do) and not some message forum somewhere who doesn't even provide source links, or (God forbid) Comedy Central.  Regarding the swift boat vets... I'll take their word over yours OR your sources on this any day.  It was Elliott who supposedly issued the retraction as reported in the Boston Globe, and Elliott has since denied the retraction ever took place.  Please get your facts straight on this.

I'd kind of like to see the US in one piece for a bit longer, and it certainly won't happen at this rate as long as people are out there who care more about deposing the sitting US president than actually getting rid of the people who decided it would be a nice idea to fly airplanes into US buildings and kill a lot of people.  Oh yes, sorry, I forgot, the US can do no right and they're "only reacting because US foreign policy has oppressed them in the past."  Silly me, I should have remembered that! (/sarcasm)

You know I'm going to find it quite sad when I'm finally proven right on this.  I'd really like to be proven wrong, to see that all this danger is just because poor and needy people need food, and that love and "feel good" measures could overcome hateful hardline attitudes.  I would love to see that happen.  Unfortunately that's not how the world works, and playing ignorant to the dangers in the world is only going to result in more 9/11's and worse.  All I see any more is people bitching about the price of gas, bitching about jobs going overseas, bitching about this, bitching about that, and nobody's really lifting a finger to do anything about it.  "I want I want I want, Me Me Me."  This country is being run by  the whiners anymore, and all I see from the "hate Bush" crowd is a bunch of spoiled little brats who have nothing better to do than to whine about not getting their way.  Whatever happened to JFK, remember him?  "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country."  Well forgive me for actually trying to make a difference here and giving a damn about people's lives.  Believe whatever you want, but don't come crying at me when the hammer falls and you're caught on the anvil when it hits.  Just go on with your merry little lives, pretending the problems of the world don't exist, or are all the faults of the evil Republicans or Jews or whatever you want, and since you're not to blame nobody's going to hurt you for it.  Why should I be concerned, right?

We can debate this as much as we like but it's future events that will decide the truth of it, not rhetoric or posturing.  I have about as much chance at the end of the day of influencing your position as you do of mine.  At least I have something more substantive to offer than "I hate Bush", however if you want to continue this needless back-and-forth discussion just to have a "let's see who can out-conversation the other guy" that's up to you.  I'd originally set out to educate people on the dangers of Wahhabism, not turn this into partisan-style bickering.  Do you even care about what I originally posted, or the subesquent link regarding Wahhabism, or are you just here because you enjoy arguing with me?

Skullhunter:  I appreciate the link regarding the story that World Net Daily ran.  This is EXACTLY the sort of thing that needs reporting - not sweeping under the rug.  Also, yes, I agree with you that the US policy toward Saudi Arabia sucks rotten eggs.  Saudi Arabia is definitely not an ally to anyone.
« Last Edit: 2004-08-12, 11:30 by Phoenix » Logged


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Hedhunta
 
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« Reply #21 on: 2004-08-13, 01:05 »

w00t i started a debate! lmfao
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« Reply #22 on: 2004-08-13, 03:08 »

I'm not gonna say anything but this:
http://www.majorityreportradio.com/weblog/...Sovereignty.mp3
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Phoenix
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« Reply #23 on: 2004-08-13, 05:42 »

So he's not a good public speaker.  Your point?  Oh wait, to most people this means Bush is a complete idiot, I forgot.  How about his education, if we want to pick on his intelligence:

Graduated from Yale University (1968)
Graduated from Harvard Business School (1975)

Again, facts before rhetoric please.  You can't graduate from Yale and Harvard if you're a complete dumbass.
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« Reply #24 on: 2004-08-13, 06:51 »

I, for one, have never thought Bush is an idiot. His public speaking strikes me as being half ill-preparation and half him not seriously believing in what he's saying. What I do think though, regarding his intelligence, is that he is actually willfully ignorant. The only thing wrong with his thought processes is that he has arrived (like many other rich elitist scum) at a point where he need not learn anything else. The world can be put into black-and-white terms, there is only one true way to live, to think, to worship and all others are wrong at best and the very work of Satan at worst. No one unlike himself has anything of any worth to say, nor does anyone have the right to criticize or lampoon him (see his statement "There ought to be limits to freedom" regarding a pardoy website about him). In other words, he's a typical rich child of privildge. Almost no level of education can change that. Certainly not a C average worth of education.
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Phoenix
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« Reply #25 on: 2004-08-13, 08:21 »

Again, some very good points there.  Kerry is just as rich and elitist as Bush, which is why I don't really trust either one of them, I can only hope one will screw things up less than the other.  I don't trust any politician outside of trusting them to be predictable.  I am also of the mindset that you can never STOP learning.  I may know a lot of things, sure, but all I've really learned is that I'll never be able to learn everything.  As a very wise old man I knew once put it, "The more you know the dumber you feel."
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Woodsman
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« Reply #26 on: 2004-08-14, 18:09 »

well this isnt the first time outside opinions  have been brought up to try and influence american ellections. I really couldnt care any less how anyone feels about american leadership who dosent vote in american ellections because its really none of thier buisness. so when i see things in the media like "terrorists prefer anyone but bush" or " most europeans see bush as bigger threat than saddam" i dont put much stock into it and i certainly wont let it influence my vote in either direction.
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« Reply #27 on: 2004-08-14, 18:18 »

On the issue of john kerrys war service i dont really see a whopping 4 months as anything impressive. My brother spent an entire year in iraq but i wouldnt vote for him for president based on that. Seems to me a person who gets 3 purple hearts in 4 months is proubly more careless than heroic.

 While i dont see bushs service in the air national guard as anything significant in this campaign ( for me anyway ) i do think that the claiming that  nation guard service is not worth while  for the sole perpose of hurting bush  politicly is a bit out of line. The national guard isnt shown a 10th of the respect it deserves despite the considerbale peace time services it provides so if you want to bash bush thats fine but leave the guard alone.  They may not be Green barrets but that dosent mean its cool to spit on them.
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Phoenix
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« Reply #28 on: 2004-08-14, 22:26 »

Quote from: Woodsman
well this isnt the first time outside opinions  have been brought up to try and influence american ellections.
I'd say in this case the outside opinions are a little more relevent, owing to the fact that they belong to the people who would like to see all Americans dead and are attempting to do just that.  Knowing the minds of your enemies is important to understanding how to defeat them.  What's wrong with sharing information in this respect?
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« Reply #29 on: 2004-08-14, 22:50 »

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What's wrong with sharing information in this respect?

Because it may not necessarily be legit. It sounds a lot more like intentional disinformation than anything else. I've got a rough time believing that the same intelligence apparatus that claimed the Soviet Union was a powerful threat right up until the point where they collapsed suddenly knows who our enemies want us to vote for. Seriously, it's so prejudicial it's not even funny. You all know I don't like Kerry, I see very little difference between Bush's policies and what Kerry is promising, but the only way this could get more blatant would be if Bush himself issued a statement that voting for Kerry was a treasonous act. Not only that, but it reinforces the idiotic "people who don't like Bush love terrorists and Saddam Hussein" nonsense. Why else would "sensitive intelligence" like this be shared with the press? For that matter, again I ask why such a secretive group like Al Qaeda would let their "candidate" be known? There's far too many gaping holes for this to be legitimate.
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Phoenix
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« Reply #30 on: 2004-08-15, 01:14 »

There is a valid reason for Al Qaeda not wanting Bush in the White House for another four years, and that's Afghanistan.  Bush is a known factor among the terrorists, they know when he makes a threat he follows through with it and there's a lot of terrorists that are dead or captured as a result.  Bin Laden is in hiding, the Taliban is gone, and even though Iraq is a mess right now Saddam Hussein is awaiting trial, his sons are dead, and Al Qaeda has had to shift their methods of operation around completely and decentralize in order to avoid being caught.  This is not disinformation, it's common sense based on recent events.  That there's some intelligence floating around to this effect should not come as a surprise to anyone.  It's cause and effect, nothing more, nothing less.  Bush has done them a lot of damage, so they want him out and by whatever means necessary.
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« Reply #31 on: 2004-08-15, 04:43 »

Al Qaeda was all ready decentralized, that's why it's been so difficult to get someone inside the organization. They're composed mainly of small groups or "cells" of people that operate independently. Infiltrating their network is so difficult because there's no network to infiltrate. That's why even though Bin Laden is either in hiding or dead, they continue to make attacks, a central leadership is unnecessary for them to function. As far as the Taliban being gone, someone better tell them because US military outposts in Afghanistan still come under fire regularly, their "morality police" still accost women for dressing immodestly, being seen in the company of men that are not relatives and trying to go to school or work. Afghani "President" Hamad Karazi can't go anywhere in Kabul without a heavy armed guard and can't go anywhere outside Kabul period. People that keep wanting to bleat "Mission accomplished" should probably check with the people actually getting shot at first. As far as Bush following through with a threat, I've got two words for you: North Korea. And if he's done some much damage to Al Qaeda, where exactly are all these new recruits coming from that are showing up in Iraq? You know, the ones that weren't there before the US decided that NOW Hussein needed to go, not after the first Gulf War when Iraqis begged the US to support an uprising but were left to those same torture chambers and executions that were used as part of the pretext for this most recent war. If Al Qaeda wants anybody in office, they'd probably settle for either one of the guys who think military might is actually going to solve something it hasn't managed to solve for decades but has managed to do wonders for recruiting. I'm just so tired of the "if you are for this guy/think this way/say this stuff, you're for the terrorists" crap. History shows there's only one road that kind of mindset goes down. When you demonize entire groups of people for thinking differently, you can justify just about any level of atrocity committed against them. I'm not terribly comfortable being in that group, but I'll be damned if I'm going to shut up and behave like a good little citizen of the State.
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Phoenix
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« Reply #32 on: 2004-08-15, 06:06 »

Alright, what's your solution to this problem since you're convinced you know better how to solve it than those who are currently in power?
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« Reply #33 on: 2004-08-15, 21:40 »

Logical fallacy. That's like telling me that because I can't rebuild an engine I'm not qualified to notice when it's not functioning right. I never said I know how to solve the problem better than those in charge, I just said I know what's currently not working. Look at Russia, they've been even more brutal than the US in dealing with terrorists. They've buried them in pigskin to symbolically deny them access to Heaven, they've murdered family members, they've tortured them, summarily executed them and if anything it has increased the resolve of the Chechen terrorists. Some people say insanity is repeating the same actions and expecting different results. Military action is not going to provide a solution to a problem that is mainly being CAUSED by military action. My main gripe is, neither party is going to put a stop to that any time soon. As always, they and the people that give them financial support make the policy and the profit, the rest of us get to do the dying. That's something that 9/11 should have really been illustrative of. The vast majority of the people killed that day weren't captains of industry, politicians or government intelligence operatives. They were regular people like us that figured they were going home after work that day. If the body count keeps going up, which it has been, we are not winning. It's not enough to kill them if more people are going to sign up to follow in the footsteps of the martyred dead. Figuring out how to stop that cycle isn't appeasement, it's not weakness, it's common sense. Of course, it's ultimately not profitable either.
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Phoenix
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« Reply #34 on: 2004-08-16, 01:31 »

I see.  So what you're basically saying is the situation sucks, you see no end in sight, politicians suck because they're the cause of it, and regular people do the dying and that sucks too.  I've heard these complaints so many times across so many generations, and people still complain about the same things.  They complained about this in the middle ages.  That's the problem, too much complaining, not enough action.  All I'm hearing from you is a lot of compaining that the current system isn't working.  Well, if you think it's broken then either fix it, or find someone you think can.  Isn't that what elections are for?  Otherwise, if you have no solutions then you're just out for attention.  We have a word for complaining incessantly, it's called "whining".  Actions > words.

I've also got some rather rude news for you if you think there's a way to break this cycle by being "humanitarian" about it.  Humans have been killing each other for as many reasons as there are grains of sand along the beach all throughout history.  This has not changed for several thousand years now.  This is why the dream of world peace is an illusion.  Human nature will never break from this, and even if you enforce rule with an iron rod you'll never stop it.  Disarming the world won't stop it.  The people behind the Wahhabi movement will NOT stop and sit down at a table for peace talks.  They are interested in killing and conquest.  These are murderous religious fanatics that began this movement several hundred years ago.  Neither the US nor Israel started this, but they are the focus of the Wahhabi movment because the US is seen by ALL Arabs as the center for Western Christianity, and Israel is targeted because they've always wanted the Jews gone.  (You should do a little history on Nazi Germany some time as well, to find out just how much influence a certain Haj Amin Al Husseini, former grand mufti of Jerusalem had on Hitler's anti-semitic campaign.  By the way, Haj Amin Al Husseini was none other than Yasser Arafat's mentor.)  While you're shaking hands in friendship with them they're waiting with a knife behind their back to put in yours when you're not looking.  The only thing you can do is break down the immediate threats they pose and remove the leadership behind organized movements bent on attacking you in order to reduce the long term chances of repeated attacks.  9/11 wasn't the result fo some random rabble or resistance fighters, it was a top-down planned operation that had been in the works for years.  You had attacks on the US embassies in Africa, the 1996 World Trade Center bombing, then the USS Cole...  What did the US do?  Nothing.  That's why 9/11 happened, the US appeared weak so they pounced.

The ONLY way this is going to stop is if EVERY country in the civilized world works together to reign in Islamic extremism.  Those who advocate or support extremism should be toppled, period, end of story.  Harsh?  Damn right it is, and that's the only way to do it - all or nothing.  You cannot sit down and do nothing when people are out to kill you, or they will succeed.  Either stand and fight, or lay down and die.  The war is already on, and it cannot be rolled back now and just forgotten about as if it never happened.  Advocating a cessation of hostilities just because people are dying is lunacy.  It's a war, what the hell were you expecting, bridge club?  You want more US civilians to die instead?  If someone's going to die I'd prefer it to be the terrorists.  So what if people want to sign up to be martyrs?  Let them!  Let them run up against the US military and die.  Let them pour over the border into Iraq to get shot up by the US Marine Corps.  I have no sympathy for fools, and if that's what they want is to become martyrs then I say it's time to start making a whole lot of martyrs.  Give them what they want.  If they want death then let them have it, just not on their terms.
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« Reply #35 on: 2004-08-16, 06:19 »

i think razchek(sp?) said it best in starship troopers when he said "the theory that 'violence never solved anything' is wishful thinking at best, brute force has solved more conflicts in history that all other options combined"



btw, everyone harps on OUR body count(700ish? out of about a half million or so people in the armed forces, yeah we certainly are losing; idk what it is, dont care really) .... how many non civilian(since everyones so uppity about that too!) people have we killed? thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, its pretty simple, kill more of them than they kill of us. eventually there will be none left of them due to a) weve killed them all and their ideology is gone, or b) there will be too few of them left to be of any consequence and any of them will be shunned by the people that once supported them either out of fear or of good conscience.
« Last Edit: 2004-08-16, 06:24 by Hedhunta » Logged
Phoenix
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« Reply #36 on: 2004-08-16, 08:15 »

Aye.  You know, I think the US isn't given enough credit.  After all, look at how humanitarian the US military is for going in the hard way - troops, tanks, planes, etc, trying to not kill everyone except the bad guys?  They're respecting holy sites instead of blowing them up, even though the "FIGHT TO THE DEATH IN THE NAME OF ALLAH!!" bad guys are holed up in there, and they're providing food and water for the local people instead of just mowing them down with heavy machineguns so they don't breed any more insurgents for 20 years down the line.  I mean, why not do it the easy way and just lob a few ICBM's into the entire region and be done with it?  That would pretty much solve the entire "Mideast Problem" swiftly and permanently.
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« Reply #37 on: 2004-08-16, 20:15 »

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I've heard these complaints so many times across so many generations, and people still complain about the same things.

Maybe it's because they're not getting fixed.

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That's the problem, too much complaining, not enough action. All I'm hearing from you is a lot of compaining that the current system isn't working. Well, if you think it's broken then either fix it, or find someone you think can. Isn't that what elections are for? Otherwise, if you have no solutions then you're just out for attention. We have a word for complaining incessantly, it's called "whining". Actions > words.

We also have a word for thinking you know what someone's doing without evidence to go on. It's called "assumption". The "you're just trying to get attention for yourself" and "you're just whining" are very familiar criticisms, usually leveled by people who don't want to contemplate that a system by and large controlled by those with money and power is no longer within our ability to fix. It's been taken out of our hands. The people who end up running for office that we're supposed to vote for are not necessarily the best people for the job nor do they have our best interests at heart. They're the ones that could spend the most money and make themselves look the best in the media. Incidentally, there's also word for refusing to acknowledge a situation, it's called "denial".

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The people behind the Wahhabi movement will NOT stop and sit down at a table for peace talks. They are interested in killing and conquest. These are murderous religious fanatics that began this movement several hundred years ago.

They're also not going to be deterred by the possibility of dying either. As you said, they're religious fanatics. Dying for their beliefs is not something to be avoided but to be embraced.

 
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Neither the US nor Israel started this, but they are the focus of the Wahhabi movment because the US is seen by ALL Arabs as the center for Western Christianity, and Israel is targeted because they've always wanted the Jews gone.

The US is targeted because the US has supplied arms to Israel, because they've propped up numerous dictators in the region like the Shah of Iran and Saddam Hussein and because they've destabilized governments whose only transgression was to engage in policy that ran counter to US interests. As far as Israel being targeted because "they've always wanted the Jews gone" you might want to look into a little history yourself, like what happened to all the people that were living in that area right before Israel was formed. You also might want to look up groups like Irgun and the Stern Gang. That may provide a nice perspective on ?terrorism? in that region. And the "center for Western Christianity" thing might not be so if certain idiots would quit proclaiming that we are a "Christian nation" in direct ignorance of a). all the citizens of the US who are NOT Christian and b). centuries of law and Constitutional doctrine, like the Treaty of Tripoli.

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The only thing you can do is break down the immediate threats they pose and remove the leadership behind organized movements bent on attacking you in order to reduce the long term chances of repeated attacks.


Thereby creating tomorrow's honored martyrs for the next batch of terrorist recruits to idolize. Maybe if we weren't rolling our tanks through their countries like we own the place and giving them fresh stacks of bomb-shredded bodies to point at as they rail against "The Great Satan" they wouldn't draw as much of a crowd.  Killing them is not working.

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It's a war, what the hell were you expecting, bridge club? You want more US civilians to die instead? If someone's going to die I'd prefer it to be the terrorists. So what if people want to sign up to be martyrs? Let them! Let them run up against the US military and die. Let them pour over the border into Iraq to get shot up by the US Marine Corps.

Yes, I was expecting bridge club. And I'd love for more US civilians to die. I'd also love for fanatic fundamentalist Muslims to take over the country and put me and all of my pagan, homosexual and atheist friends to death. Look, hang the condescension for a minute. I know full well what war is like, not as much as someone actually in it but a hell of a lot more than some average CNN-watching armchair general. This is combat in the really real world; the participants don't get to respawn after they get splattered and there are tons of noncombatants that happen to be living in the arena that don't get to respawn either. This is a lot deeper than this "We're the good guys, they're the bad guys" nonsense, because you know what? They think they're the good guys and we're not. That's what they're taught, and they don't think any farther than that either. Both sides engage in the same chest-thumping, flag-waving, ?we?re #1!? routine. They don?t realize they?re being suckered into throwing their lives away by fanatics, and until they do this definitely won?t stop. They think they?re fighting against a foreign invader that?s out to destroy their culture and their faith. And every time the military levels a mosque, shoots up a wedding party, talks about this war as a ?Crusade?, has soldiers who call them ?ragheads? and worse, humiliates and degrades them and then waves it off as being no worse than a fraternity initiation, the fanatics are being proven right. Oh, and much like our esteemed President, it?s very easy to say ?let them run up against the US military and die?, ?bring it on?, when you?re not the one sitting in the desert getting shot at. Oops, my mistake, I?m supposed to hate the soldiers, not feel sympathy for them.

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i think razchek(sp?) said it best in starship troopers when he said "the theory that 'violence never solved anything' is wishful thinking at best, brute force has solved more conflicts in history that all other options combined"


Hedhunta, it's funny you should mention that. I always liked that movie, but not for the reason most people did. I liked it because it showed how easy it is to get people to root for the fascists. That's exactly what the "good guys" were, a high-tech version of Nazi Germany, except instead of being white supremacists they were human supremacists. The propaganda, the uniforms, the society structure, take another good look. Verhooven did a great job of integrating that stuff subtley enough that not many people noticed. Oh, and in case you think that upping the body count is really the solution, I've got one word for you: Vietnam.

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Aye. You know, I think the US isn't given enough credit. After all, look at how humanitarian the US military is for going in the hard way - troops, tanks, planes, etc, trying to not kill everyone except the bad guys?


Yes, yes, the inherent nobility and goodness of the US military, trying to spare the civilians while our wicked, Satan-inspired enemies cover themselves in babies, hold old ladies up infront of themselves and hide inside busloads of schoolchildren. "Collateral damage", folks. The military plans for and accepts collateral damage, which as we all know is the cleaned-up term for "civilians who get smoked".  Now to quote you from earlier, Phoenix, "I've also got some rather rude news for you if you think there's a way to break this cycle by being "humanitarian" about it.". Now we are being humanitarian about it? Last time I checked, killing people was not any part of the definition of humanitarian.

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They're respecting holy sites instead of blowing them up, even though the "FIGHT TO THE DEATH IN THE NAME OF ALLAH!!" bad guys are holed up in there

That's patently not true. They may not be leveling them with concentrated bombardment, but it's not stopping them from busting the door in and shooting up the place.
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Kufa: US tanks, ground troops and aircraft launched a major offensive against Iraqi Shi'ite militia yesterday, killing about 20 in one raid on a mosque and pounding other positions around the holy city of Najaf. Pools of blood lay inside the green-domed Sahla mosque, one of three main shrines in Kufa just outside Najaf, and spent cartridges littered the courtyard. A tank had smashed down the door of the building, where US troops said they found weapons. US commanders say they are trying to avoid inflaming religious passions but will attack mosques used in combat.
story link

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and they're providing food and water for the local people instead of just mowing them down with heavy machineguns so they don't breed any more insurgents for 20 years down the line. I mean, why not do it the easy way and just lob a few ICBM's into the entire region and be done with it? That would pretty much solve the entire "Mideast Problem" swiftly and permanently.

I sincerely hope no one from that region reads what you're saying. Ever. What would you expect Iraqis to say to that? "Thank you for not exterminating us like cockroaches?". This is generosity and humanitarianism, the fact that we haven't started mass executions or nuked them? "Shut up and quit complaining, we're giving you food and water after we demolished what was left of your civilian infrastructure and we're only killing you by accident and whrn you piss us off, this is nothing compared to what we could be doing to you right now.", gee, how generous. I can't imagine why they haven't yet been coming out to meet our soldiers with bunches of flowers in thanks for not being shown what could be done to them. "Oh wow, it's all good, I don't have to worry about being carbonized and my entire country being reduced to a fused sheet of radioactive glass. It's just little stuff like getting blown away at a checkpoint, being handed back over to the Iraqi cops that were beating the crap out of me, having my house flattened by "stray" bombs or artillery, or getting caught in the crossfire between US troops and fanatic Muslim gunmen that don't live here and weren't even around less than a year ago. Oh joy." Funny you should mention the Jews earlier, since it looks like you have your own idea of a "Final Solution" to the "Mideast Problem".

What really gets me is that after a screed like that, you still don't have a single clue about where the new recruits for fanatics come from, why they hate us so much, or why it's so easy to get them to hate us.
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Phoenix
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« Reply #38 on: 2004-08-16, 21:21 »

Ahh yes, the usual line-by line "try to cut up the argument" approach.  Been there done that, you know you "debate" guys really need to find a new strategy.  As for assumptions... you're making plenty about me, either that or you're only going on what Assamite says about me behind my back. Slipgate - Wink

I'm not so ignorant as you think, so please, come down off your intellectual pedastal and try talking to me instead of skirting around the points I make.  I'll skip the tit-for-tat stuff and obvious sarcasm (at least I hope that was sarcasm about wanting civilian deaths) and just deal with your summary here.


Quote from: Skullhunter
What really gets me is that after a screed like that, you still don't have a single clue about where the new recruits for fanatics come from, why they hate us so much, or why it's so easy to get them to hate us.

Quite the contrary.  The recruits come from people being brainwashed by the Mullahs and the clerics.  Again - read about Wahhabism, and quit pinning the root blame on the US and Israel.  You need to throw that playbook out the window and deal with some REAL FACTS.  I already told you this started hundreds of years ago, WELL BEFORE THE NATION OF ISRAEL WAS REFORMED.  As for stopping the recruiting, it's pretty simple.  If you remove the brainwashers you remove future brainwashing.  Cut off the head and the body dies.  Sure, you have a lot of leftover rabble right now, but the whole long-term goal in Afghanistan and Iraq is to set up free and self-determined states in an area of the world where freedom is nonexistant.  I propose taking this further, and toppling the leadership of Iran, the world's biggest sponsor of terrorism, and I'd certainly take a hard look at Saudi Arabia, since that's where Wahhabism spawned in the first place.

There's three fronts to this war - physical, economical, and psychological.  You destroy the terrorists who are immediate threats, you cut off the funding to the terrorist networks so they can't buy weapons and pay recruits, and you work to demoralize the current terrorist networks as well as discouraging people from joining up.  The latter of those is done by spreading freedom and democracy in place of totalitarianism, fearfulness, and lies.  I invite you to name for me any democratic and free country in the entire world that harbors and spawns Al Qaeda-type terrorist movements from its indigenous population.  Free countries don't promote terrorism.  Are you against even trying to stop these people?  It seems to me you just want to prattle on about how the US is wrong no matter what it does, that nothing will ever be solved no matter what anyone does, so why even bother in the first place.  By your own words you're convinced the war is already lost while it's still being fought, so let's pack up and go home and hope the nice little insurgents and terrorists will just play nice after that.  With that kind of attitude failure is guaranteed, and I for one am damned glad that people like you are NOT running the show.  What exactly is it that you expect to accomplish thinking this way?  I'd really like an answer to that question.  What do you want?  What is your goal?  DO you have a goal?

Look, you can go round and round about what you think I do or do not know, I'm sure you're convinced you're as right about all of this as I am.  If you're so convinced the system is completely broken then what do you intend to do about it?  That's what I'm asking here.  I'm calling what you're doing whining because that's EXACTLY what it is if you can't pony up a solution or at least make an effort.  Perhaps the reason that's being leveled at you is because it's true?  Don't get me wrong, everyone whines about stuff some times, I do it myself.  However, I do at least try to think up solutions for problems as opposed to doing nothing but complain incessantly about those problems.  A futile effort is better than effortless complaining.  As Yoda said to Luke, "DO, or DO NOT."  Now if you're interested in discussing possible solutions for what appears to be a broken political system be my guest.  Start up a new topic.  Share your ideas.  I'm all for open discussion, especially if it's meaningful and can actually lead to getting something done.
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« Reply #39 on: 2004-08-16, 23:24 »

Quote
I'm not so ignorant as you think, so please, come down off your intellectual pedastal and try talking to me instead of skirting around the points I make.

Sure, I'll come down off my "barely passed high school and flunked out of college" intellectual pedestal. Here I figured I was keeping it fairly simple. I don't recall implying you were ignorant either, maybe just avoiding looking at certain things too closely. Just understand that I'm not some rich kid idle intellectual fresh out of Berkely or some crap, I'm a guy who crashed and burned in college and has busted ass working for the past 7 years to support a family, who used to think very much like you do now, hell, maybe I was even MORE gung-ho than you are and then ended up getting a very nasty wake-up call. So I don't study Marx, Engels or Bakunin, sometimes I read stuff that Chomsky writes if I can get my brain to focus that long, but I definitley don't have a bunch of degrees after my name. As for "cutting up the argument", that's how I do it. I address each point in turn rather than just ramble like a speed freak, which is how I'd write if I DIDN'T split stuff up. And yes, that was sarcasm. I may have mentioned this before, but after hearing all this "you just love terrorists/you want America to lose" stuff so often for so long now I tend to get a little snarky about it. Look, I understand Wahaabism pretty well, I have read up on it. I know how totalitarian and constrictive they are, I understand they treat women like property and I understand the contempt they have for those of other paths. I also understand that until the past 30-40 years, they were just some backwards offshoot of mainstream Islam that had no popularity because, well, it just wasn't appealing. That's shifted, you might say they've decided dying on their feet is preferable to living on their knees, whether or not they really ARE living on their knees. Selling something is as much dependent on WHO you're selling it to as much as what you're selling and how you're selling it. So while Wahaabism wasn't very palatable to people who were living fairly comfortable lives, once the misery level started going up, it started looking better. And like it or not, our government has had a hand in creating that misery. As I said towards the beginning, the CIA may not have created Wahaabism, but they've definitley made sure that it's got some nice blood-soaked ground to grow in. We can't have agents of our government going overseas and screwing with other countries that pose no military threat to us but aren't doing things the way we want and then cry "Foul!" when it comes home to roost. So technically we're both right. The fundamentalists have spread Wahaabism AND our government has engaged in actions guaranteed to make it appealing to people who feel we're screwing with them for no reason. Oh, and don't get yourself all wrapped up in wanting something done about Saudi Arabia. Barring a miracle (or utter catastrophe) nothing's going to happen there any time soon.

Quote
I invite you to name for me any democratic and free country in the entire world that harbors and spawns Al Qaeda-type terrorist movements from its indigenous population.

Baader-Meinhoff Gang, Germany. Irish Republican Army, Ireland. Pretty much any bonehead white supremacist group, the United States. Terrorists don't just have brown skin and live in the Middle East. I invite you to name for me any democratic and free country in the entire world that has become free and democratic due to the military intervention of the US since WW2. I can name you plenty that we've screwed with since then.

Quote
Free countries don't promote terrorism.

Four words. School of the Americas. One more word: Contras. If that isn't promoting terrorism, I'm Santa Claus. But I understand when they work for us, they're called "freedom fighters".

Quote
I'd really like an answer to that question. What do you want? What is your goal? DO you have a goal?

My goal will never happen in my lifetime. I'd like to see the whole diseased system torn apart and replaced by NOTHING. No heirarchy. No centralized government, no authority derived from money and power. But I know it'll never happen in my lifetime because humanity isn't mature enough to not want to be led. For the now, I'd like to see people stop whining about how everybody else in the world seems to hate us and then pretty much excusing everything our government does. It's like wondering why no one wants to hang out with you, when you've got a friend who won't stop flipping people off and crapping on the hood of their car every time someone disagrees with you.

Look Phoenix, I don't have a mad-on for you personally but I'm at the saturation point right now for "We're the good guys and we always do the right thing for the right reasons" shite.  I used to think that way too. I used to think Reagan was the best president ever and Oliver North was a real American hero. Instead what I find out is that Reagan was a lying old reptile that talked tough about terrorists and then cut deals with them behind our backs to make himself look good and North was a disgrace to his uniform and the Corps who helped a bunch of "freedom fighters" who went after nothing but soft civilian targets and never got within miles of real armed forces if they could avoid it. Nobody wants to look in the mirror and say "You know, maybe they've got a point outside the other crap. Maybe we are partly responsible."  Everybody just wants to dodge it and say "Screw that, it's their fault, goddamn backward savages, we're just trying to bring them democracy and freedom." Who knows, maybe they saw what happened to the last group of backward savages we tried to "help" and don't like that idea too much.  In light of stuff like Abu Ghraib, I don't think I blame them either. What I've seen so far is that not only do the insurgents not want the US in Iraq, they don't want the Wahaabists there either. There have been a few statements issued warning Al Qaeda operatives to get their carcasses out of the country or face the consequences. Look at it this way. The US supported Saddam Hussein for the longest time, right up until the Kuwait invasion. We had an opportunity to remove him then, the Iraqi resistance practically begged us to do so, and they were left to twist in the wind. NOW all of a sudden it's important to remove Hussein after he's been in place all these years, after all the mass graves, the chemical weapons used against his own people, after all the abductions and tortures. They're supposed to trust that we're there to do the right thing THIS time? I don't know, maybe I just ask too many questions. Maybe I'd be happier if I didn't. But I do. As far as my solutions and what I do, I try to get people to ask themselves those uncomfortable questions. The big solution, well, like I said, people like to be led. That's not going to change until they find themselves slogging around knee-deep in their own dead and realize who made it that way. That's what it'll take before people in general say "Okay, you had your chance, you cocked it all up, now you need to go." Until then, the people entrenched on both sides of this are going to stay right where they are and they're going to do whatever they have to to stay there. There is no sacrifice they are not willing to have us make. I don't feel like being used to grease the wheels. I used to think we really were free, but then I asked myself how free and saw that it only worked that way if we were willing to be our own jailers and stay inside the cages we're taught to build for ourselves. Don't question, don't complain, cooperate, consume, conform. All you've got to do is take a look at the way our system (and those in other countries) treat people who don't go along with that program, that'll show you how free we really are. We're free to be what they want us to be, once you step outside that area, like it used to say on maps of old "Here there be monsters". Anyways, I'm done rambling like I said I wasn't going to. Understand I mean no disrespect, I just tend to be very blunt, I prefer it to sugar-coating things. I'm actually a really nice guy once you get to know me  Slipgate - Smile

Oh, and I haven't talked to Assamite, he's usually too busy wiping the floor with me on the server.  Slipgate - Distraught
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