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Woodsman
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Its not like every jew in the world lives in Israel were talking about a few million people here. And they didnt move out they were driven out!
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games keeper
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celtics where driven out by the romans , indians where killed and driven away by the europeans , dont forget the people who got murdered over the land either .
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Woodsman
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your missing the point. No one is saying the palestinians have to go anywhere they just have to stop blowing themselves up on school busses!
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Phoenix
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your missing the point. No one is saying the palestinians have to go anywhere they just have to stop blowing themselves up on school busses! THANK YOU WOODSMAN!! Why the hell can't the rest of the world get this point???
Games Keeper: Do you know there were Jewish settlers living peacefully in land of Israel prior to 1948? Do you know how the land was originally divided with the 1948 treaty? It was divided along the lines of Palestinian and Jewish populaiton areas. Everyone HAD their own space, but at the same time, prior to 1948 you had an unprovoked massacre of over 100 Jewish residents owing to rising anti-semitic sentiment in the region, which was (surprise) already in the works decades before that and was largely behind Husseini's influence on Hitler's push to wipe the Jews out in Europe.
The Jews declared their own independence so they could be self-governed, free to practice their own religion without fear of reprisal by an Islamic government, and to be able to protect themselves since nobody else seemed eager to do so. The Arab world basically said "Let's wipe them out" in response to this. They're STILL trying to wipe them out. Nobody seems to care that the Jews aren't out to arbitrarily exterminate the Palestinians or the Arabs in the region. Militarily they could do it, but no, they've gone to the peace table hundreds of times over the last 56 years trying to secure peace and all they get in return is attack after attack. As Woodsman correctly stated the Palestinians are mostly immigrants anyway, and while there is a border dispute as far as who should control what areas the Israelis have recently been pulling back settlements to be closer to the 1967 borders established after the 6 day war. They don't make incursions into Palestinian controlled areas unless the Palestinians start blowing people up en masse, and after going in to root out the insurgents they withdraw. The security wall is seen as a solution to this problem. It will keep the terrorists out and remove the need for the Israelis to roll tanks in every time something happens. It will reduce the deaths on BOTH sides of this problem. The only other long-term alternative is extinction for Jews. They're willing to peacefully coexist with their neighbors, despite having the military capability to wipe them out. If the situation were reversed the Palestinian Authority, backed by every Islamic government in the region would not hesitate to act unilaterally and commit genocide on the Jewish people. You would have a massacre, and I'm sorry but I don't see your UN or EU government doing anything but turning a blind eye while it happened and secretly cheering that "The Jewish problem has been solved."
As for the "poor Palestinians" do you know how many Palestinians King Hussein of Jordan had killed? He kicked them out of the country quite voilently. Where was the EU and the UN condemnation for that? How about the recent slaughter of 150 Tutsis by Hutu terrorist in Africa? They held a vote to "unanimously condemn" the action. Well? Where were the UN forces to protect these refugees - women and children - in the first place? This was a UN-run refugee camp, right? What was the response against the people who killed them? Are they protected now? No. The UN did absolutely NOTHING to protect these people or bring their killers to justice. Good job UN. This is exactly why nobody in the rest of the world takes the UN seriously. All talk, no action. Whenever trouble arises, count on the UN to turn tail and run the opposite direction, as it did in Iraq. The UN is completely worthless, and completely hypocritical. |
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  I fly into the night, on wings of fire burning bright...
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games keeper
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and the jewish dont have blood on there hands , yea right . Whenever trouble arises, count on the UN to turn tail and run the opposite direction, as it did in Iraq against some of the other countrys who say they are a democracy , most of the UN are , if people dont want to go to war and protest against it then the politcans know they shouldnt go to war because they have to listen to the people . |
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« Last Edit: 2004-08-21, 00:09 by games keeper »
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Kain-Xavier
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To me, the whole Israel thing is akin to two junior high school students fighting over the same seat at a crowded lunch table with an empty seat. The one feels that he has a right to sit there because he was there first, the other feels the same. The other children at the table are so used to the two bickering and fighting that they ignore it. Some side with the one boy, others side with the other boy, either way the children at that table want one of them to disappear to resolve the problem. The children that sit at the farther away tables are different however. They are troubled and wondering why nobody is taking action to mediate between the two, especially when there is clearly room for both.
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games keeper
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jews may live wherever they want from me .
but they should not be laying claim on a city due that it was in the bible that they lived there .
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Skullhunter
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They're willing to peacefully coexist with their neighbors, despite having the military capability to wipe them out. But thankfully lacking the pretext for wholesale genocide. I'd think they're probably smart enough to know that the rest of the world would probably notice a whole bunch of people going to camps and never coming out of them. This isn't the 30's, all it takes is some guy with a cell phone/digital camera combo, within 24 hours everybody and their dog will be seeing whatever he'd seen. Their willingness to peacefully coexist with their neighbors may not allow for genocide, but it seems to be flexible enough to allow for shooting kids throwing rocks, performing "assasinations" using air-to-ground rockets, knocking peoples' homes down, shooting at people working on their farms and in general a level of callous brutality that far outweighs the level of callous brutality performed in the name of the Palestinians. If the situation were reversed the Palestinian Authority, backed by every Islamic government in the region would not hesitate to act unilaterally and commit genocide on the Jewish people. Unproveable hypothetical. The situation is NOT reversed, Israel fields the fourth most powerful military on the planet and is also one of the few world nuclear powers. Despite all of the hysterical "They're going to push the Israelis into the sea!" nonsense, it's not going to happen any time soon, none of the surrounding nations even come close to matching the IDF's military power. You would have a massacre, and I'm sorry but I don't see your UN or EU government doing anything but turning a blind eye while it happened and secretly cheering that "The Jewish problem has been solved." Israel doesn't contain every Jewish person in the world. Nor are its policies representative of every Jewish person in the world. Therefore Israel ceasing to exist != the Jewish people ceasing to exist. So, the ludicrous comparison to the Holocaust doesn't really hold water. Besides, if we want to talk about mass extermination of the Jewish people, we can just refer to the book that people keep citing as their claim to that land, the Bible. The Christian Zionists don't like to mention it, but I remember something about a lake of fire for people that don't acknowledge Jesus as their Lord and Savior, that would seem to include an awful lot of those same Israelis. But of course, nobody wants to upset the people that are supposed to keep the holy land secure. Just gotta get rid of that pesky Dome of the Rock so the temple can be rebuilt, these prophecies don't fulfil themselves without help you know... |
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Woodsman
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spin it any way you want but you know if the terror stoped the fighting would stop and the only ones who can stop the terror are the palestinians and they dont want to.
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Phoenix
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The Palestinians have no interest in peaceful coexistance, nor do the other Arabs. I wish you'd quit being completely blind to this fact. What do you think happened in 1948? The Arabs DID try to push Israel into the sea. Egypt tried to do it again in 1967 with a modernized military force, along with Syria and Jordan, and they got their tails collectively kicked. Here's a link to a timeline of the events leading up to it:
http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/sixdaywar.html
And here's some choice quotes:May 14, 1967: Egypt's President Gamal Nasser demands the withdrawal of United Nations force--established in 1957 as an international "guarantee" of safety for Israel--from the Sinai peninsula. The UN meekly obeys; the United States and Britain fail to rouse the Security Council to take action.
May 15: Three Egyptian army divisions and 600 tanks roll into the Sinai. World community does nothing.
May 17: Cairo Radio's Voice of the Arabs: "All Egypt is now prepared to plunge into total war which will put an end to Israel."
May 18: Voice of the Arabs announces: "As of today, there no longer exists an international emergency force to protect Israel. We shall exercise patience no more. We shall not complain any more to the UN about Israel. The sole method we shall apply against Israel is a total war which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence."
May 18: Nasser announces blockade of Straits of Tiran in the Red Sea, severing Israel's southern maritime link to the outside world. Israel considers the closure an act of war. (US President Lyndon Johnson later says: "If a single act of folly was more responsible for this explosion than any other it was the arbitrary and dangerous announced decision that the Straits of Tiran would be closed.")
May 20: Syria's defence minister (now president) Hafez el-Assad says: "Our forces are now ready not only to repulse the aggression but to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland. The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is united ..."
May 27: Nasser: "Our basic objection will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight."
May 30: Nasser : "The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel."
May 30: Jordan's King Hussein signs a five-year mutual defence pact with Egypt and the two set up a joint command, making clear its stance in any future conflict.
My 31: Egyptian newspaper Al Akhbar reports: "Under terms of the military agreement signed with Jordan, Jordanian artillery, co-ordinated with the forces of Egypt and Syria, is in a position to cut Israel in two ..."
May 31: Iraqi President Rahman Aref announces: "This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear--to wipe Israel off the map."
June 4: Iraq joins Nasser's military alliance against Israel.
June 5: Six Day War begins: Israeli Airforce attacks airfields in Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq.Not out to push Israel into the sea, huh? You really need to go back further back in history than just current events, and you need to start questioning some of the BS that's being fed to you through the news media and liberal circuits. You're only parroting the propaganda that's coming out of just about every anti-semetic publication I've seen to date, including Al-Jazeera and Pravda.
The Christian Zionists don't like to mention it, but I remember something about a lake of fire for people that don't acknowledge Jesus as their Lord and Savior, that would seem to include an awful lot of those same Israelis. Now you're just being ignorant. If you want to know what happens to the Jewish people I suggest you consult a biblical scholar or actually research bible prophecy instead of making snide comments that have no relevence to this discussion. Let's not forget that God sent his only begotten son to die for the sins of men so that nobody HAS to go to that place. God promised that he would not forsake his people even during times of chastisement for their disobediance. He made a covenent, and with the establishment of the nation of Israel in 1948 that covenent was fulfilled. God has no intention of turning His back on the Jews.[/color]
But of course, nobody wants to upset the people that are supposed to keep the holy land secure. Just gotta get rid of that pesky Dome of the Rock so the temple can be rebuilt, these prophecies don't fulfil themselves without help you know...
Again, you're being completely ignorant and blatantly snide. Look, if Almighty God decides the Dome of the Rock has to go it will go, whether by man's actions or natural disaster. If not, then oh well, that's His call. Either way, the Jewish temple WILL be rebuilt, whether the Dome of the Rock is displaced or the temple is built to sit next to it. Believe what you want, but just be patient, wait and see.
As for the fulfillment of prophecy, I will not derail this topic in an aside discussion as to its accuracy or inaccuracy. I would ask you, however, to stop spinning Christianity into something it's not. If you want to know what Christians believe then ask me in private, I happen to be one. I can tell you what the bible does and does not teach, that is, if you're actually interested in hearing the truth as opposed to being content with accepting the spin and distortions commonly spread about Christians today. That is your choice, of course.
Now let's continue with the topic at hand please.
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Skullhunter
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The fact that Israel's military is the fourth most powerful and advanced military on the planet is not propaganda. The fact that the IDF routinely shoots people throwing rocks at soldiers wearing standard protective gear designed to protect them from high-speed shrapnel who happen to be sitting in tanks or armored personnel carriers is not propaganda. The fact that fighter aircraft have been used by the IDF in attempts to kill individual people in public areas is not propaganda. The fact that peoples' homes have been demolished by bulldozers is not propaganda. I've never read anything that's come out of Al Jazeera, let alone Pravda. However, I could easily say that you've been swayed by propaganda yourself, since you seem incapable of seeing the Palestinians as anything besides some faceless, monstrous other that can only be dealt with using force. The Palestinians have no interest in peaceful coexistance, nor do the other Arabs. I wish you'd quit being completely blind to this fact. That is most definitley not a fact, that is a blanket statement condemning a pretty large chunk of humanity as being incapable of desiring peace. If I were truly as stuck on anti-semetic propaganda as you say, I wouldn't have bothered to differentiate between the IDF, the government of Israel, and every other Jewish person on the planet. See, actual anti-semites don't give a damn about fine distinctions like that, they're all a bunch of Jewish filth and it doesn't matter where they live or what they do. Having actually gone toe-to-toe with honest-to-goodness anti-semetic, racist neo-Nazi scum, I've got to say the comparison is pretty damned insulting. They're the same people that've tried to latch themselves on to the Palestinian issue solely due to their very real and undifferentiated hatred of all Jews everywhere, and thusly have been told by pretty much everyone involved in supporting the rights of Palestinians where they can go, what they can do when they get there, and to do it until they break something off. Now you're just being ignorant. If you want to know what happens to the Jewish people I suggest you consult a biblical scholar or actually research bible prophecy instead of making snide comments that have no relevence to this discussion. Let's not forget that God sent his only begotten son to die for the sins of men so that nobody HAS to go to that place. I have actually read Bible prophecy. I used to be Christian. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. See, I know that the "nobody HAS to go to that place" bit is dependant upon acceptance of Jesus as Lord and Savior. Don't accept Jesus, go to Hell, go directly to Hell, burn for eternity, do not pass Go, do not collect $200. Just one of the many "do as we say, or God'll get ya" lines that finally got me fed up with the whole racket. So please don't patronize me with this "But you haven't read the REAL truth" stuff. There is no "real truth" that can justify to me the idea of sentencing people who ordinarily might qualify for sainthood to eternal torment simply because they aren't buddies with Jesus. Which would include any Jews that didn't convert. As far as Christians go, what you call spin and distortions, I call real life experiences dealing with people who think they know the "real truth" of existance and that everyone who thinks differently is at best, stupid and wrong, at worst, wicked and in league with "Satan". |
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Woodsman
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I dont know what kind of christians you have been talking to. You may want to consider that jerry farwell dosent represent every christian in the world.
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Hedhunta
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yeah, the israelis kicked butt in the 5 seperate wars that have been declared upon them. wonder what would happen if the US didnt have them on a leash so to speak.
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Phoenix
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However, I could easily say that you've been swayed by propaganda yourself, since you seem incapable of seeing the Palestinians as anything besides some faceless, monstrous other that can only be dealt with using force. Nice try, but you're way off the mark. Have I once said the Israeli government should wipe the Palestinian people off the map? No, I remember condemning the Jordanian government for doing the very same thing to them within Jordan's borders. Don't confuse my support for the right of Israel to defend itself with defacto sponsorship of genocide. I desire to see peaceful coexistance between all concerned parties.If I were truly as stuck on anti-semetic propaganda as you say, I wouldn't have bothered to differentiate between the IDF, the government of Israel, and every other Jewish person on the planet. From what you have said, in your mind it's still Israel's fault no matter what happens or who starts it in the first place. Your mind is already made up, so why bother trying to persuade you that Israel should continue to exist as a nation when you see the Palestinians as justified in everything they do and the Israelis as justified in nothing they do? Do you desire to see Israel gone as well? What is your desire in regards to the middle east? I personally have nothing against the Palestinians surviving. I WANT them to coexist peacefully with their Jewish neighbors. It is their choices - not my view of them - that dictate their actions. By their actions they demonstrate their intentions. Railing against me does not undo historical fact, and I've presented plenty of historical facts that demonstrate the intent of the Arab world at large that you continue to outright ignore in favor of your biased position.I have actually read Bible prophecy. I used to be Christian. There's no such thing as a "has-been" Christian. You either accepted Jesus into your heart sincerely, or you never did at all. If you really believed with all your heart then you are still forgiven. God does not give then take away that precious gift. If not, and you never truly accepted this gift, well there's still time for you to change your mind.  and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works... and they were judged every man according to their works. Alright, you brought this up so I will correct you on this error. The saved cannot be judged, for they are already saved. The saved also cannot be given up from death and hell at this judgement since they are already resurrected into new bodies. Those being judged by their works, and checked against the book of life are the unsaved. Would it surprise you if I said non-Christians may be written in the book of life? I can prove this as well.Romans 2:12 - 2:16: For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.Those who have never heard the Gospel will be judged according to their works and their conscience. Only those who hear the gospel, understand it, and choose to outright reject it, or those who are hypocrites claiming to believe the gospel while with their actions doing otherwise are guaranteed their fate. This rejection has to be pretty damned stubborn as well as God gives people a lifetime full of chances. Has it ever occured to you just why God takes so much time and effort to try to get people to listen? If God was so quick to judge and condemn, then why even bother sending Christ to die in your place and mine in the first place? Why not just strike everyone down, cast them into hell and be done with it? I have your answer for that too, and it's II Peter 3:7-3:9:But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.That is the mercy of God. He wants everyone to be saved. Those who end up in the lake of fire get there by their own choice.So please don't patronize me with this "But you haven't read the REAL truth" stuff. There is no "real truth" that can justify to me the idea of sentencing people who ordinarily might qualify for sainthood to eternal torment simply because they aren't buddies with Jesus. Which would include any Jews that didn't convert. As far as Christians go, what you call spin and distortions, I call real life experiences dealing with people who think they know the "real truth" of existance and that everyone who thinks differently is at best, stupid and wrong, at worst, wicked and in league with "Satan". I'm sure you've read the same bible I have, but that doesn't mean you've gotten the same things out of it, and the attitude you're displaying toward Christians mirrors the same fallacies I hear from those ignorant of what Christianity is. Do I think you're wrong? You bet! Do I think you're stupid? No. However, I do think you are blind to a great many things. You've certainly chosen to see only the negative side of Christianity and completely ignored the positive. If your real life experiences have been only negative, then for that I am sorry, as you have missed a great deal of wonderful things. If you've encountered only hypocrites, then depart the hypocrisy, yes, but turning away from God will solve nothing. This is your choice of course. As far as judgement is concerned, where have I judged you? Have I once said you are going to hell? Where have I condemned you? Only God has authority to judge one's eternal status, and only God decides who will and will not receive salvation. As He said himself, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy." Any so-called Christian who says "You're going to burn in hell!" should worry about their own salvation first. Only God knows the hearts of men. I have not judged you, I am quite sad to see that you are quite eager to stand in judgement over me. |
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