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Author Topic: AMD vs Pentium 4 (Any thoughts?)  (Read 13912 times)
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Phoenix
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« Reply #20 on: 2005-05-17, 04:41 »

Shambler:  I sent you a PM requesting some additional info.  Just a heads up incase you have pop-ups blocked and don't see it you can check your message indicator up at the top of the page.
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shambler
 
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« Reply #21 on: 2005-05-17, 11:17 »

Thanks, I'll have to check it out when I get home. the school computers don't let me do much.
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Phoenix
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« Reply #22 on: 2005-05-24, 05:29 »

Bump - Sent another message your way, incase the popup window doesn't work again.
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Phoenix
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« Reply #23 on: 2005-05-25, 05:43 »

Bump.
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shambler
 
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« Reply #24 on: 2005-05-25, 10:51 »

Thanks. I did send you a message back with details, but haven't done anything since.

Just sent a new mesage. Thanks Pho.  Slipgate - Smirk
« Last Edit: 2005-05-25, 11:15 by shambler » Logged
Phoenix
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« Reply #25 on: 2005-05-31, 05:40 »

I've sent you a message with all the info requested.
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Phoenix
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« Reply #26 on: 2005-06-01, 16:41 »

Bump again because everyone keeps replying to the other threads.
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Phoenix
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« Reply #27 on: 2005-06-01, 21:18 »

And again...
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Dr. Jones
 

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« Reply #28 on: 2005-06-02, 00:33 »

Quote from: scalliano
One question I have: I was planning on upgrading my CPU later in the year. My current system is running with an 32bit 800Mhz Athlon. Could I get away with installing the above, or am I limited to a 32bit CPU until I get my arse a new PC?
With an 800MHz Athlon, you likely have one of the older Athlon cores, meaning you have an older Athlon board, which will likely not support even a newer 32-bit Athlon processor, let alone a 64-bit Athlon.  Your memory is also likely either PC133 or PC2100, which won't work with anything much better than what you've got

At this point, I'd just suggest saving up and getting a new 64-bit setup (CPU, mobo, memory, and PSU)... you should be able to salvage your current sound card or use on-board audio, as well as your current hard drives and optical drives.  If your video card is at least AGP4X, you should be able to use that too, just make sure you get a board that has an AGP4X/8X slot (I'd recommend looking for one that has both AGP and PCI-E, for future upgrades).  If you're not too concerned about pinching pennies at this point though, I think the better path would be to just build a new system from scratch, so you don't have to worry about any older bits crapping out on you, or just slowing down the system in general.

P.S.: The reason I recommend a power supply in the upgrade is because older power supplies generally don't put out adequate power for newer CPUs, as well as everything else.  Also, a new (enermax, antec, or PCPC) power supply ensures you have smooth, clean power for all the components, as opposed to "noisy" power that you sometimes get with aging supplies.
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Phoenix
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« Reply #29 on: 2005-06-02, 01:34 »

I've already PM'd him a bunch of specs on a prospective system, which covers just about everything mentioned.  Regarding the PCI-E and AGP... I'm not aware of any boards that support PCI-E x16 and also have an AGP slot.  I've only seen one board so far that has a PCI-E and an AGP slot has a single 1X PCI-E slot, and that was an Asus board with a Silicon Graphics chipset with onboard video.  I'm not aware of any dual-solution chipsets.

My problem is that while I sent him the PM I just don't know if he'll see the popup window, which is why I keep bumping this thread so it'll appear on the main page as "last updated."  Unfortunately everyone keeps replying to the other threads on this board so it keeps getting shoved down again, and I have to keep bumping it again.
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death_stalker
 

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« Reply #30 on: 2005-06-02, 04:47 »

Hey thanks again for all the info. Thumbs up!  I had no idea soo much went into choosing a processor.

My friend just got his computer yesterday and he went with the AMD. That thing humms!!! And he paid alot less than what I did.  Banging Head against Wall Oh well. Anyhow, thanks again. Thumbs up!
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mecha
 

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« Reply #31 on: 2005-06-02, 04:49 »

Quote from: Dr. Jones
With an 800MHz Athlon, you likely have one of the older Athlon cores, meaning you have an older Athlon board, which will likely not support even a newer 32-bit Athlon processor, let alone a 64-bit Athlon.  Your memory is also likely either PC133 or PC2100, which won't work with anything much better than what you've got

At this point, I'd just suggest saving up and getting a new 64-bit setup (CPU, mobo, memory, and PSU)... you should be able to salvage your current sound card or use on-board audio, as well as your current hard drives and optical drives.  If your video card is at least AGP4X, you should be able to use that too, just make sure you get a board that has an AGP4X/8X slot (I'd recommend looking for one that has both AGP and PCI-E, for future upgrades).  If you're not too concerned about pinching pennies at this point though, I think the better path would be to just build a new system from scratch, so you don't have to worry about any older bits crapping out on you, or just slowing down the system in general.

P.S.: The reason I recommend a power supply in the upgrade is because older power supplies generally don't put out adequate power for newer CPUs, as well as everything else.  Also, a new (enermax, antec, or PCPC) power supply ensures you have smooth, clean power for all the components, as opposed to "noisy" power that you sometimes get with aging supplies.
as an Athlon user, I had nothing but constant problems with my old XP 1800+ on account of using an overloaded power supply. I had every expansion slot full, two hard drives, and a collection of case fans (anyone familiar with the old Coolerguys Cyclone 5000? 230+ CFM airflow!) that would cause my machine to "black out" (it runs the fans, but the safety feature in the power supply cuts off power to everything else to prevent damage from the overload, it's an ATX 1.4 feature I believe).

I continue to run a gig of 2100 speed ram in my Barton 2500+ machine because well... I don't have the money to fork over on upgrades anymore. I'm not really a PC gamer anymore and only play mostly older games anyway, so I don't really give two shits about the bottleneck it produces.

the power supply that I replaced my old BBQed 300 watt unit with is a 460 watt Enermax. ALL of my problems with my 1800 setup disappeared completely with this replacement, which goes to show it's not just the CPU, the RAM or the ATA interface that matters, but the friggin power supply matters with performance as well! Slipgate - Smile

I prefer Enermax, myself, but my dad and my uncle are running Antecs and they haven't had any problems with theirs. I'd stray away entirely from using any power supply that comes bundled with a case, if anything, delete the option to cut down on the price of the case and buy your own unit instead. be forewarned, that if you get into the 400+ watt territory, you'll get more like a server grade power supply with a SHITLOAD of power leads, so there will be a jungle of power cables for you to tie up or stuff somewhere else in the case to prevent airflow intrusion. I say to get as much wattage as you can afford -- it only uses up as much power as your devices plugged into it demand (it won't run your electric bill up) and in the case of higher end hardware, you're better safe than sorry, especially with these new damn nVidia cards that I think REQUIRE you have a 500 watt power supply in order to use them.

sheesh.
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Phoenix
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« Reply #32 on: 2005-06-02, 17:21 »

Crap..  I was half-asleep when I wrote that.  My PM was to shambler, not scalliano.  Sorry about the confusion!  Slipgate - WTF

I don't think any nVidia boards require a 500watt PSU.  I think a 400 is recommended or something like that.  Now if you SLI two 6800Ultras... that's another story.  I'd really do some serious research on the wattage requirements if anyone's insane enough to do that (and has that much money to throw away).  What's more important than raw wattage is maximum deliverable Amperes on each rail.  If you have a 425 watt PSU that can only put out 10 amps on the 12 volt rail, you might as well use it as a rifle target.  Higher amps per rail is always better, but how it's divided is also important.  Having all of it dumped to the 12 volt rail would be great for peripherals, but lousy for the CPU which needs it on the 3.3.  When comparing brands and models within the same wattage ratings.  Here's an example of what you might see:
Code:
DC OP/Load       Max.   Min.
+5V                    44A  11A
+12V                  20A   5A
+3.3V                 38A   0A
-5V                       2A   0A
-12V                     1A   0A
+5VSB               2.2A   0A
Max Continous DC output power shall not exceed 431W.
Max output combined on +5v & +3.3V shall not exceed 220W.

These are the specs off my power supply.  Note the max output is 431W, even though it's a 460Watt PSU.  There's a reason for this, and it's not false advertising (though it would seem so) and every power supply manufacturer on the market does this.  What you want to do is look at your amps per rail and combined wattage and match them to your needs.

Some PSU's have dual 12 volt rails, some have a single 12 volt rail.  Some argue dual-rail PSU's are better because the current load is split between the mainboard connector and the peripheral connectors, reducing electrical noise and maintaining a cleaner power signal to the mainboard/CPU by isolating peripherals on the other rail.  I've also heard it argued that dual-rail PSU's exist because it's cheaper to manufacture a two-rail PSU than a single-rail, high-wattage PSU.  A single-rail's advantage is that it allows all devices to draw from a pooled supply.  Either way, the best power supplies out there will have a very large current capacity on all the important voltage levels (5v, 12v, 3.3v) and will have a lot of open space for airflow.  PSU's with larger fans are preferred, and dual-fan PSU's are nice not in that airflow is really increased but rather that if one fan stops the other will continue to ventilate the unit.  Of course there are other bells and whistles to consider, but they're useless unless the unit can keep up with current load of the devices.  Stability should always be the number one consideration of any power supply, with "nifty features" and price coming in well after that factor.  You can have $1000 in quality components and skimp on a $20 power supply trying to feed it and you'll sit there wondering why your system keeps crashing all the time.  It's like towing a 53 foot long semi trailer with a Yugo, why would you do that?  Why do the same with your PC?

Most power supplies that come with cases are really low-end like mecha said.  I've seen some Enermax cases that come with Enermax power supplies (big surprise, considering they made the case), and there are some Antec ones out there I believe but those are the only bundled ones I've seen that are any good.  Enermax is the best manufacturer from what I've seen, with Antec running a very close second.  Now I've seen articles rating Antec a lot higher than Enermax based solely on combined wattage output.  I have a problem with that, as combined output should not be the only factor in determining quality.  I'm using a 460 watt Enermax in my system, and my voltage levels have zero fluctuation when viewed in realtime on my monitoring software, even if I kick all of my fans to full throttle, whereas I've seen the most expensive Antec models on the market that have the same ripple as a 400Watt CodeGen that came with my old Noblesse case.  One of those fans of mine is a 119CFM Tornado that draws 12 watts of power, as well as three additional 50CFM Sunons and various other fans and blowers.  This was NOT a cheap power supply, I paid $100 for it new several years ago.  However, I've only paid for it once, and I have no stability problems whatsoever (so long as I don't do something stupid like overclock my video card but that's not a power issue).  Stability is not something that's achieved just through high wattage/amperage ratings.  Component grade really comes into play here.  If you've ever seen or built a bridge rectifier you'll know what I'm talking about when I use the term "ripple".  The less ripple the better, and to get a really clean DC signal the rectifier has to have beefy filter capacitors on it.  The bigger the better when it comes to filter caps.  For those who don't know what a rectifier is, it's what converts AC from the wall into DC for the computer to actually use.  The bridge rectifier is the heart of any power supply.  Basically you want a beefy transformer coil and beefy caps on the rectifier.  That's what will give you clean, stable power flow.

Another thing to consider is the whole "how much do you really need" or "can you have too much power" arguments.  The short answer is "No".  Remember that the closer you run an electrical device to its maximum, the more it's going to be stressed and the more it's going to heat up.  You always want some breathing room.  It's no different from redlining an engine.  You can baby a car and make it last, or burn it up in a year's time.  Same with a power supply.  If you can maintain a 20% or better ceiling from your actual load you're in good shape, and the power supply should be adequate for your needs.  If you try to max out an underpowered supply you can expect to run into the problems mecha did, along with such fun things as random reboots, boot failures, blue screens... need I go on?

Now in Europe the branding is different, so some stuff may not be available there.  I know when I was putting spec recommendations together for shambler his preferred vendor doesn't sell a lot of stuff you can find in the US, and there's a lot of stuff there that doesn't exist in the US.  It makes it a trickier game recommending the best components![/color]
« Last Edit: 2005-06-02, 18:23 by Phoenix » Logged


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« Reply #33 on: 2005-06-03, 03:34 »

Another premium brand (I believe the best of the best) is PC Power & Cooling - however, I'm not sure the premium price is entirely worth the premium quality.  I do know that they last forever though, have very smooth output, and pack the current where it counts (Kenny is on his third PCPC supply, after frying the first with some insane tweaks, then outgrowing the second).

Similar to what Pho said, you can't have "too much" when it comes to a power supply.  If you've got the money to get a 700W power supply, heh... go for it - the reason being that when you aren't stressing a power supply, less of the electricity drawn is dispersed as heat (note Pho's reference to redlining a PSU).  Therefore a 500W PSU powering 380W worth of components will actually be a tad friendlier to your electric bill than a 400W PSU powering the same setup.  How much efficiency this translates to I'm not sure, but it does make a difference - I've seen it :o
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shambler
 
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« Reply #34 on: 2005-06-03, 08:56 »

been away, just got back. will read all later thanks Pho.
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