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Phoenix
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The Dual Gatling Guns are a BFG-class weapon. They are easy to get, sure, but they have the following drawbacks:
1) They eat ammo even faster than Skippy's Super Nailgun
2) Several of Earth's other weapons share the same ammo
3) They're only good at close range, otherwise you're wasting ammo
4) You have to keep them trained on someone to make a kill
5) If you die with them out and active, someone else just got a BFG - and the whole server knows why
The DualGats can be very lethal if used properly, and part of the problem right now is you can't tell who is dual from someone who's single because they're only toting one gun around from third-person. This will change with 1.0. I had code in place during Gen's initial alpha to draw both guns from third person, but the source changes that included Team Arena code made that incompatible, and I've had too many other things that had to be done first before I could implement that kind of thing again. It also requires new player model animations to be included, so we've had to wait on it. For now, if you see an Earther running around with a gatling gun, assume he has two. You can tell them apart by sound, but by then it's usually too late if you're the target. 
Regarding the "BFG = noob" attitude, I can certainly understand annoyance with the Q3 BFG, especialy for those who may not have "grown up" with the older Id games. The Q3 BFG is an overpowered, no-skill spamcannon. That's why we changed it by default to behave more like a real BFG, similar to the BFG10K from Quake 2 and the BFG9000 from Doom, but with its own unique behavior. The old one can still be accessed with a dmflag. I don't, however, subscribe to the mentality that "if-you-even-think-of-touching-a-bfg-there-is-something-wrong-with-you". This probably comes from the fact that I'm a casual gamer and always have been, and I've never played competitively. I also tend to like to clear a room full of people from time to time. I am, however, aware of the fact that certain gaming "cliques" tend to develop certain attitudes toward certain elements of play. Back when I played RA2 a lot it was considered in poor taste to use the chaingun, especially on HPB players (of which over half of all people playing at the timer still were) because you'd get a few LPB's on a team simultaneously chaingunning people from match start. You had absolutely no chance against that sort of thing if you were on dialup. The BFG thing I see as more of an attitude difference than a gaming fairness issue.
As far as Doom, Q2, and Gen is concerned, I'm of the belief that BFG's are just part of the game, and like anything else they can either add some serious fun or be overused and abused. Someone who constantly heads straight for the BFG and only the BFG (or camps the thing) is behaving as lame as someone who constantly heads for the Quad 110% of the time, and I've seen (and dispatched) players that do both. I've seen "pro" players chatfrag, spawnfrag, and camp all the strong items and yet they see absolutely no problem with that kind of play, and consider themselves better than everyone else for it. Why? That's how everyone else they know plays, or they flat out just don't care about fair play because they want the win and nothing else matters to them. I have the problem when the game is no longer about playing to have a good time and becomes, as Tab would put it, a virtual penis-measuring contest. I have absolutely no use for that sort of thing.
Lame behavior really can involve any item, but the way I see it the other players should not be penalized by one person's abusive behavior. Stripping items out of play really doesn't solve too much unless it's something that makes someone completely unkillable, like the Q2 Power Shield, which never belonged in deathmatch in the first place. In Quake 2 there were also servers that disabled the BFG10K, but all that did is allow railgun-camping bot cheaters free reign over the server, or whoever got the Power Shield would become an unkillable tank since that was always left in play if the BFG was ripped out. You can frag someone running around with a BFG, you can't frag someone with the deflector shields from the freaking USS Enterprise. The BFG=lame attitude was epidemic back then, and I really think it just took on a mind of its own, a sort of "groupthink" mob mentality against it. I played on a Weapons of Destruction server from time to time, and I was called a lamer by one individual for using the BFG10K to kill a guy who constantly grappled to a wall and lobbed napalm grenades everywhere. It was WOD for crying out loud, the LAST place you'd expect someone to whine about the BFG10K!
The only problem behaviors I see are deliberate chatfragging, camping, and generally being an ass to other players for no reason. If you're out to ruin it for everyone else because that's how you get your jollies, there's a word for that - bully. It's no different from a schoolyard thug who gets off on stealing someone's lunch money. Thuggish behavior doesn't belong in an online game. As long as the game stays focused on being fun and the hostility is kept to a minimum then everyone wins. That's what I think anyway.
Washu: As long as the "I suck" doesn't turn into "I suck and I have no chance of improving". You can always get better. Just don't be defeatist about it. I've seen a lot of players go from "I suck" to topping scoreboards within a year or two of playing a game.
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« Last Edit: 2005-05-17, 16:38 by Phoenix »
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Tabun
Pixel Procrastinator
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Also, in Generations there aren't many free frags that are exclusive to 'good' players. Some classes are just easy to frag with in specific situations. There's no escaping a mortar sometimes, just like there's no escaping a Doomer with ammo, or a railing Strogger in a space map. So unless you're referring to that, you're not on the receiving end of free fragging ;]
One of the things I've come to despise (ever since Quake 2 1on1'ing back in the 'good old days'), is the rail-and-switch-to-shotgun or rail-and-switch-to-chaingun tactic. So what happens is that someone gets a lucky rail shot in and proceeds to finish the target off in the easiest way possible. Lame. Anyone can kill a player with 10-20 health points with a supershotgun. Only gutless wussies need to.
Here's what a stylish and honourable gladiator does: He finishes the player off with another rail shot (if he was railing in the first place). I hear you thinking: "But Tab, that's not efficient!". Break-pause-stop-hold-it. This is a game, not an insurance marketing convention. Prove that you can aim and play ball. Besides, what's wrong with leaving an opponent with -60 health? Let the gibs fly freely and work for it.
That kind of thing annoys me way more than the (occasional) BFG blast, or the unwarranted use of the dualgats..
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| Tabun |
?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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Moshman
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Personaly Tabs I don' t think that tactic is that bad. I mean, not everyone is a good shot with the rail, and if they suceed in a shot, and pull out a weaker weapon because they may not hit you a second time, is just a playing strategy. To me the goal is to get frags honestly, and developing tactics and using them, even if it seems cheap. What you do in return is develop a counter-strategy. I mean if you are really that good, you'll mop up that cheap ol' annoyance right?  |
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Tabun
Pixel Procrastinator
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That is a 'tactic', just like raping someone by ganging up on them is a tactic, like fragging the one with the least health in a crowded room is a tactic, like going Doom only when you get a free Supershotgun on spawn is a tactic. Just because it works doesn't make it right. If I would want it, I could go that way and score about 20-30% more frags in my games. (depending on several factors, ofcourse)
Being a bad shot is not an excuse for dirty tricks. If you have relatively bad aim (and I've been there, believe me), the best way to go is to work on your dodging skills and item control. If you get 4 tries versus the opponents 2, you not only have a chance to nullify his aim-advantage, but you get to practice and hone your own skills more in the process. Everybody wins. Score a cheap frag and you annoy someone else and fail to improve. Everybody loses.
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« Last Edit: 2005-05-17, 18:10 by Tabun »
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?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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Moshman
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That is a 'tactic', just like raping someone by ganging up on them is a tactic, like fragging the one with the least health in a crowded room is a tactic, like going Doom only when you get a free Supershotgun on spawn is a tactic.
I did say honest frag. I don?t want to sound like an ass but here it goes. *sigh* Don?t take this as an attack. Of course there is a point were you draw the line. But really. Every time I develop a tactic, a good player who is usually good, comes across my tactic, and can't beat it, shouts insults and calls me a cheater and a cheap shot. Then I just lose all desire to play anymore, because I can't develop a playing style other then just plain sucking without players whining about how I'm cheap. That's one reason there why I suck, because I am afraid to play how I play in fear I may offend someone, because they can't figure out how to beat my tactic. What if a player uses a rail gun and has only 1 shot left. They hit you and switch to the shotgun. What are they supposed to do? Say ?okay go ahead and beef up a bit, grab a mega health and a BFG or two, after all you?re only 20 frags ahead of me and it would really put a large sufficient hole in your game if I gain one frag.? /sarcasm Like I said there is a point where you need to limit your clever ingenuity in developing tactics. But when playing and you get your behind moped all over the floor because someone has a clever strategy, don?t jump to the chat box and start yelling ?Cheap Cheater!? You got to find a way to BEAT the strategy. Obviously if you spend 3 serious hard thinking hours trying to counter their strategy there is something you can defiantly question. |
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ConfusedUs
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Washu's got a point, but it really comes down to how 'serious' the game is. In a competitive or a heated match between several equally good players, using finishing weapons makes sense.
But if you're just having fun and goofing off, why not practice your aim a bit more.
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scalliano
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Yup, that's me
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I hear ya.
By the way, this kind of thing is what I'm talking about:
In which game we were just having some laughs, goofing around and not even trying at times. I know I was, and I'm pretty sure he was too, which is why this kind of post raises my left brow. Relax, Tab. I was only joking. Any time I've gone on the Euro server and seen All vs Tab I've just gone along with it. If I'd known what I know now from this thread I'd have done auto-join. I don't play competitively, not just because I can't, but also because it's a GAME. That was actually a fun round that night. I don't play much online 1v1 myself and it was refreshing to have a bit of stealth action on the go for a change. That said, your reputation as Strogg does precede you, so does Pho's as Doom, and it wouldn't have been the first time I got plastered against the wall.  As for the BFG-spamming on Dead Simple, I personally expect nothing less from that map  although I do see Tab's point on how it can be a pain in the arse on all vs 1 TDM. Doom blimp-spamming, guilty as charged although it was only once and as a wind-up a few weeks back. Not mentioning any names, there were some anti-Doom "learn some skill" comments passed, albeit NOT by the victim of said barrage of rockets I find it more fun trying blind trick shots with the GL or mortar. They rarely come off, but it's a laugh seeing the "?" when they do.  This isn't to intentionally annoy people, just for one of those "heh" moments. I play mostly as Doom, but I'd still play as Doom if it were one of the weakest classes because I'm a Doom fan, NOT to gain any unfair advantage. It wasn't long ago that Slippy players were getting it in the neck for only ever using the RL and don't get me started on the Arena BFG... If you're only out to win, then you're missing the point, but there is a knife-edge between the fragger being a cheap shot and the fragged being a sore loser. |
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« Last Edit: 2005-05-17, 20:34 by scalliano »
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PSN ID: scalliano
The Arena knows no gender, colour or creed, only skill.
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Thomas Mink
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I'm an avid weapon switcher, so I guess my play style annoys Tab. If I happen to get a rail hit, I always switch to a lower weapon to score the frag. It's the same with Slippy and his rockets too... after hitting with one or two, I switch to something else most of the time... unless rockets are still my best option. I'm a horrid shot with railguns and all sniper weapons... I always have been since I started playing games online. I get a lucky streak every so often, but that's all it is really. So when I get a hit that doesn't kill, I switch to something I can actually hit with. Working on my sniper aim isn't going to happen, because I'm the type who hates railguns more than he hates BFGs. I've always hated snipers.. and probably always will. So there's no way I'm going to become something I hate. |
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Tabun
Pixel Procrastinator
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Washu:
I don't see anything that could be interpreted as an attack in your post? I certainly don't whine about it, to my knowledge. I've also never seen you handle any questionable strategy in any game I've witnessed, so perhaps I haven't been clear about my views here. Obviously I'm not talking about:
- running out of ammo (even in a sarcastic tone of voice, this is a no-brainer)
- incidental use
- application when playing sudden death or CTF panic situations
- newbs vs 'pro's'
What bugs me here, as with all cheap tactics, is that the more experienced players seem most eager to apply them. Someone is kicking the shit out of a newbie and keeps playing hardball, grabbing powerups and using said weapon switch tactics. That ticks me off.
In incidental use it's mildly annoying, but not a big issue for me. It still is weak, but hey, we can't all be heroes. Everyone's free to go 'dark side' to any extent, as long as they're not ruining the game for someone else by any objective standard.
There will come a day however, that you'll find yourself playing in traditional patterns that have grown on you throughout eons of play - that's when you'll hardly notice you're doing it, and that you don't need to be doing it (anymore). That's one of the 'dangers' of trying them at any time IMO.
Scalli:
I'm relaxed :] - It was just a typical example of the kind of message I often see after something like that, and the timing was nigh-perfect.
If I'd have lost (in either that game or the All vs Tab one), you could have called me a sore loser - but I think I'd have been less eager to start this whole discussion. I wouldn't want to give people the incentive to link my opinion to the result of a couple of games ;]
Anyway, I hope I don't come across as a whiner in general, because I fear I'd be having a really distorted view of things. All I know is that I have a love of honour that is uncommon in today's society, whether it be virtual or 'real', and that is somewhat disheartening. Sometimes a trivial thing can lead me to blow something out of proportion, at other times, it will not. Either way, I'm sure the core of my message is be clear and sensible.
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« Last Edit: 2005-05-17, 21:34 by Tabun »
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?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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Lordbane2110
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hmmm dark side, good is dark dark side weapon switching after rails Mwhaaa haaa haaa seriously though I am a weapon switching kinda player, generally it is a sound tactic, and that's the whole point. you have all the weapons in deathmatch for a reason sniper weapons for long range rapid fire for close to mid spamming weapons, just pick a point and up close and personal weapons like the shotgun, for when you really have to rip somebody's face off so if it annoys you tab, sorry but that's how i like to do things and at the end of the day a frag is a frag, whether it be seen to be cheap or not and yes i'll admit right hear and now, that yes i say the "All against Tab a fair bit" but generally there's no malice involved, and it's usually because even with 4 or 5, or however many players you have against tab he still comes up on top ~ which you either admire ( as he well deadly), or you think "right, he's not getting me next time" and find way to stop him as he aint unbeatable as for power up hogging, not my style. if you can frag normally, why use the quad.  |
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CrioKnight
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This discussion is funny considering that the 4 or 5 players that cream us all aren't even here. Tab and Pho are a given. But people forget we have players like makou, kajet, spawn, and a handful of others that when noobs or people whose skill isnt up to par get creamed. Me included. Like someone stated before. We're in it for the fun otherwise we wouldn't be playing this mod. Yeah. Its fun to win and it gives us braggin rights amongst ourselves. But it serves no other purpose. You won. Good. Don't be an ass. ENJOY! |
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Tabun
Pixel Procrastinator
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Just tonight I saw people using those tactics against a total newbie. I also saw a Doomer pull a QUADED chaingun spawnkill against a Strogger wielding his blaster. Call it sound, call it tactics; it's weak and if you're in the lead, you best show some backbone. If you're getting stomped by everyone, it's a different story, but if not - grit those teeth and get to work, just like everybody else :p
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« Last Edit: 2005-05-17, 23:46 by Tabun »
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?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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Thomas Mink
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Hey... he spawned in the middle of a crossfire and lost his protection. That's not my fault. I just decided to finish him off after getting my original target. As stated, I also do things without thinking... weapon switching is one of them. It's a habbit for me any more because it's what I've always done.
If I notice I'm utterly slaughtering someone, I do change my style a bit.. avoiding certain weapons and such. Unless it's a bigger game (5+).. then I just keep going.
As for the newbie... I dunno how to handle that really. My train of thought is as such... if I kill him normally, at least he won't feel (as?) bad. If I switch to a low weapon and kill him (I did this with the axe once).. I'll seem like an ass to him, as if I'm trying to make myself feel all godly. Some advice here would be helpful to me. ;p
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« Last Edit: 2005-05-18, 00:05 by ~SpAwN~ »
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Tabun
Pixel Procrastinator
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I don't see the prob. really. When I'm quadded (the rare occasion that I actually pick it up and not /gib), I pay close attention to where I'm firing. I also don't go out of my way to assault said player.. Anyway, I certainly don't hope I'm making people feel humiliated when I'm playing with a handicap or refraining from using some items/powerups/weapons/classes. It's all about fun, and when you keep dying 20 times a minute, I'm sure the fun can be improved upon by such simple means without making one look arrogant. Correct me if I'm wrong here - I'm fine with not using said handicaps, but I do think it makes the game more enjoyable for most people?
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« Last Edit: 2005-05-18, 02:32 by Tabun »
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| Tabun |
?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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scalliano
Elite
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Yup, that's me
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I couldn't agree more. I wasn't specifically calling anyone a sore loser, but I've had my fair share of "GG BFG" etc thrown at me in the past over incidents which were more or less inoccuous, and while I'm not in the league of using handicaps just yet, they are there for just that purpose: keeping the gameplay in the sweet spot. That's why I hate playing InstaGib online, cos all you need is a better connection than the other guy.
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PSN ID: scalliano
The Arena knows no gender, colour or creed, only skill.
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Thomas Mink
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I like handicaps.. but I doubt I'll ever make it to that level.
In any case... sorry if I come off sounding like an ass. I just play in the classic SpAwN fashion that I've been using for the last so many odd years now. Some of my tactics might seem underhanded and low, but it's what I'm used to. If there's ever a problem with how I play.. just tell me and I'll most likely think a bit more instead of going on my instinct.. at least catch myself, hopefully. ;p
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Phoenix
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I'm the kind of player who will use a shotgun to pop someone I just nailed with a railgun, and I'm not one bit ashamed to admit it. Why? Because if I don't, one of the following things will happen:
1) The said player will pop me instead
2) Someone ELSE out of view will steal my kill (I did all the work dammit!)
3) Someone else will frag me from behind (Rob) while I'm trying to take potshots at the guy
4) He'll run away
Using something like a shotty or machinegun to followup a solid railgun hit to me has always just been part and parcel of gameplay. The judicious selection of weapons was a serious part of Quake 2. If you played Rocket Arena 2 as long as I did you learned really quick that if you didn't finish the other guy off FAST you'd bite it when he whipped out the chaingun. This was especially important when playing pickup games (elimination-style team deathmatch) because there are no items in RA2. No health, no armor, no extra ammo. You start with what you start with, and play until you're dead. Being dead doesn't help your team because you can't respawn until the next match. Even 1 vs 1 matches you'd have to manage your guns. I started playing deathmatch in Quake 2, and I can't count the times I've died because the other guy had the sense to switch guns a split second before I did. I don't see that as cheap on his part, I see that as a fault on my part to not compensate and anticipate his move.
I see nothing wrong with the tactical application of weapon switching in public games, especially the big ones, and I've never been against the use of finishing weapons. I've been known to switch to the blaster after railing someone to near death for giggles too. If this seriously ticks someone off, let me know and I won't do it, but I like to add some adrenaline to the match and you'd be surprised how fast people move when "blaster kill" is a threat. 90% of the time they get away anyway. If it's a small match or there's a lot of new players, then yeah, make it a bit challenging on yourself, give the other guy a break, but I'm not going to feel guilty about popping someone with the Q2 single shotty (it's underused anyway) after corkscrewing him or her once or twice (or three times if it's a tanked Earther). As much as people gun for me the way they typically do I'm going to kill people in the most efficient manner I can, though, I may have a bad tendency to toy with my "prey" occasionally by using weaker weapons. I hope that doesn't bother anybody, I'm not doing it to be mean, just for a few good natured cackles.
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« Last Edit: 2005-05-18, 05:36 by Phoenix »
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shambler
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Changing weapons at the best time is common sence. I don't see a problrm here. I try to do it all the time. I even go into a fight with a nailgun, and quickly swop to the RL when the opponant gets in close for the kill, rather than staying back! Common sence. (I don't attack noobs, I encourage them) I call this stratergy, using my exrerance to make up for my slower reactions. Handicaps make the game more fun for all players, and it keeps the top men on thier toes, so they don't get bored. I've had a couple of 1 on 1 with tab, if I remember rightly, and with out the handicaping it would have been 10-0 etc. no fun for anyone, and niether would improve thier game play. Another example: due to my job I play a lot of Chess with 12 year old 'noobs' I Never paste them. I always give them a few pieces start. Otherwise I wouldn't enjoy it. (like Tab, I've been known to do 4-1!) Just my view on this thing.  |
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games keeper
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due to my job I play a lot of Chess with 12 year old 'noobs' I Never paste them I once saw a chessmatch between a teacher and a student . t took the student 7 moves to win the game . best match ever , even the teacher couldnt believe it . |
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Tabun
Pixel Procrastinator
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Weaker weapons are not the issue; it's the easy kill that makes it weak (and obviously, the less-skilled way). I just find it funny that hardly anyone is willing to admit there is weakness in the weapon switch. I'm not saying it's not efficient and that it isn't useful, practical, succesful - I'm saying it's the easy way out. If you're mopping up the floor with the server, why not take the hard road once in a while?
When someone is stupid enough to follow me into a narrow hallway, I'll switch to the Rocket launcher, or Flamer etc - that's sound IMO. When I feel like a little fun, I'll go grenades only. When someone's tanked, I'll switch to the Strogg chaingun.
It does not compare to an unescapable situation (let's say you're both in the center of Simply Dead - your opponent having 110 health), connecting the rail, doing the switch. You must recognize the situation, you all have been there - there is no escape possible: the outcome is predetermined. If the other player has a choice to do anything but die, it is not what I'm talking about. To me, this fits more in the easy-kill category: It's like chasing a player who wields nothing but a blaster down relentlessly, going quad when you're tanked, picking on the weakest player in a crowded room from a safe distance: it works, but why take the easy road systematically and structurally?
I'm seriously rather surprised I am practically the only one who feels this way about that kind of thing; I'm also one of the few high scoring players who leaves the Quad alone most of the time and uses handicaps regularly.
( I'd like to hear from Euro players how they feel about that, because if it is an annoyance rather than somewhat of an improvement, then I will certainly stop doing it. My intentions are to make the game more enjoyable, not less. So speak up if something about my play-adjustments has the opposite effect of what I intend it to have. - this aside for now - )
I have also detected that since a few weeks or so, people on the Euro server have improved and keep improving noticeably. The way I play might help here too, because there are less inescapable situations, which means more chances to get shots in, escape or try something new altogether. At the same time, I get some practice in hunting/escaping. I've noticed this kind of learning exchange with Alu mostly: he's improved on every level and we now have fun and strategic conflicts - the frag is not decided after the first shot connects, but rather after we both had to do some cunning cat/mouse-cat/dog fighting and map-navigation. We could trade about half of those situations in for a quick, clean and easy kill, but neither of us sees the fun in that.
To sum it up:
- I don't see the nescessity for a good player: I've not felt the need for it even though I tend to miss the second rail shot often enough.
- It's less entertaining, it leads to less challenging and more predictable play. Instead of training a hard skill, you train an easy skill.
- It gives (esp. newbies) that 'well, I can just type /kill or stand still here and save my strength' feeling relatively often - one of the things that I've seen people driven away from servers by.
But:
- This is not about every weapon switch one can ever make. This is not about incidental use. This is not about application in big frag-nights where everyone keeps stealing your kills. This is not about tense 1on1s between equally skilled players. This is not about 'when Strogg meats a closing in Doom'. ;]
This is not about other situations where it makes sense and the above 3 points have no connection to it. This is not black-and-white for me.
- Obviously, switching to the blaster makes it tougher, not easier :]
Now, I'll admit it costs me a couple of frags here and there, and sometimes that's an annoyance. Even so, I seem to be doing just fine. I'm honing my skills in preventing people from stealing kills, making tougher shots and defending myself from people backshooting me in the process. There is a choice, is all I'm saying.
I won't whine when a 'newbie' kills me this way, hell, I won't whine when equally skilled players like most of you will do it to me. But if it happens a couple of times in a row by someone who didn't need to, there's a chance I'll go on a rampage, hunt down the 'offender', and wrap that shotgun around his/her neck ;]
----
P.S. Games: That's something we call 'herdersmat'. It's one of those sequence-errors you'll make in Chess once, then never again. I'm surprised the teacher fell for it :]
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« Last Edit: 2005-05-18, 14:29 by Tabun »
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?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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