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Author Topic: WHY DOESEVERYONEHATEGLADIATORS (Well...WHY?)  (Read 10337 times)
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Lopson
 

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« on: 2005-05-24, 17:09 »

I was just wondering...why do u hate the GREATEST CLASS OF THEM ALL, The Gladiators?

They have: -the greatest RL of all classes;
                    -the greatest BFG (BFG10K);
                    -the greatest berserk weapon;

Want more?

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« Reply #1 on: 2005-05-24, 17:21 »

overpowered BFG + if we wanna play gladiator we can play normal quake 3
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Tabun
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« Reply #2 on: 2005-05-24, 17:25 »

First of all, although the RL is nice to play with, it is by no means the best. It's a rather odd design and nothing beats the mortar in coolness, obviously.

The BFG is only cool for one reason; we changed it. If you liked the Q3 BFG, you're a nutcase. (Also, the BFG10k is the Quake 2 version (which indeed rocks :])

Next up: Arena has no berserk weapon. He doesn't. He has a gauntlet, sure enough, which is a sort of a captain crunch boxgift version of a chainsaw, but he has no berserk powerup. 'nuff said.

Yes, I want more:

- I want to throw grenades myself, prime them and use them for cool tricks.
- I want to discharge into bodies of water.
- I want to punch someone into a pile of gibs with my bare hands.
- I want to make a trickjump with a railgun-class weapon.
- I want to set people on fire.
- I want to do insane things with movementcontrol in the air.
- I want to hit someone with a rebounding bullet.
- I want to do over 170 points of damage with a single shotgun blast.
- I want to launch someone up in the air with a rocket, and pin them to the ceiling with lightning.
- I want a style of play that I haven't seen exclusively in Q3A-FFA for the last 4 years.
- I want a class that isn't mainly played by people too afraid to try something new (something they have to get used to, that takes a bit of learning). That isn't mainly played by people afraid of losing even when they haven't played the mod for more than a week or so.

Beat that.

But to set the record straight: I laugh at the whole smiley-with-sign-saying-something>rest-thing, therefore I like making parodies. Don't get the joke? Fine, but don't try to defend the most uninspiring of Gen's classes in such a feeble way :]
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« Reply #3 on: 2005-05-24, 17:41 »

I already tried the other classes. Earth is still 1 of my favs. BUt:

-bfg 10k...ups
-still that gauntlet weapon rocks!
-i'm talking about the q3 bfg gen version. the other one was stupid.

I think people hate the gladiators because they still think that their BFG is still that damn BFSpammer. I know u cant blow up into stakes  Slipgate - Grin everyone thats in the water with their LG, i know u cant puch people to death. But i play GENERATIONS, not Q3. Why? Because i like to fight against something new! To fight against that DAMN GIGANTIC STROGG RAILGUN, or that Lightning gun or that plasma minigun, or even against those flamethrowers!

that is why i love gen! that smell of new challenge, that opportunty to say "MY CLASS RULEZ!".

BUT i still think that Gladiators RULE!

EDIT : BTW i play Gen since .99c, so i think i know what my oppinion is.
« Last Edit: 2005-05-24, 17:45 by [KruzadeR] » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: 2005-05-24, 19:14 »

Quote from: [KruzadeR
]BTW i play Gen since .99c, so i think i know what my oppinion is.
Well I should hope so if it's your opinion!  Slipgate - Laugh

All linguistic humor aside, yes I'm quite fond of the new BFG, and it's not because I pretty much invented the thing from the ground up, it's because I see so many people going out of their way to try trickshots with it, and there's not a single person that's ever complained about it in-game.  It's neither too strong, too spammy, or any other of the usual complaints.  I think the only complaint I've had so far is the fact that ammo is scarce for it since (at present) Arena does not share ammo between the plasma gun and the BFG.  That's something we can always tweak later if we wish.

My problem with the Arena class isn't so much the class as some of the die-hard Q3 players who absolutely refuse to use anything else.  Sure, I know it's "home turf", and there are some pretty good Q3 players who can use the class quite well, but never mixing it up or never even trying something else annoys me.  It's as bad as some players who always play Doom and nothing but Doom, or nothing but Slipgate, etc, but it bothers me more because everyone who has Gen has, at some point, played Q3 out-of-the-box.  Not everyone who has Q3 has played some of the older games, or had the experience of multiplayer in some of them even if they've played them single player.  That means a lot of opportunity for fun and variety is completely passed over.  A lot of die-hard Q3 players also find their usual tactics that work wonders in Q3 don't always stand up so well against the other classes in Gen.  I'm not talking cheap stuff, I just mean gameplay tactics.  They try charging headlong into a Doom plasma spray or wall of rockets, or try to go toe-to-toe with a tanked up Earther wielding two gatling guns, get set on fire, or get knocked all over by some Skippy bombs and shafted to the ceiling a few times.  As Tab so wonderfully pointed out earlier, this does not happen in normal Q3.  Some people just don't want to adapt and go back to playing Q3 because that's what they're used to, or some lodge complaints about "class X is too strong" or "class Y sucks".  The former I can deal with because usually it's a "failure to adapt" issue on the player's part.  The latter is fighting words and often times someone who is skilled with that class decides a lesson must be taught, and the complainer learns the hard way not to underestimate any of the Generations. Slipgate - Wink

Personally I've never been overly fond of the Arena class because I've never been overly fond of Q3.  The game itself seemed far too cartoonish, especially the floating, bobbing items, and the environments weren't appealing to me.  The weapons all seemed homogeonized, and this was by design.  You have a lot of the old staple weapons - double-barreled shotgun (Doom, Q1, Q2), rocket launcher (Doom, Q1, Q2), grenade launcher (Q1, Q2), lightning gun (Q1), railgun (Q2), plasma gun (Doom), BFG (WTF?), and the Gauntlet was created as a replacement for a chainsaw.  That's right, the Q3 source has the word "chainsaw" in the UI code, which obviously never materialized (until we gave one to the Doomguy).  While most of the weapons had some kind of nod to the original games, and the characters were obviously from the old games, nothing felt like the old games.  Q3 was an entirely new game, with an entirely different feel - which is why I didn't like it.  My deathmatch experiences were based on Doom and Quake 2, most of it having been Quake 2.  The rendering engine in Q3 is better in some ways, though I hate the lighting, but the gameplay just didn't do it for me.  It felt somewhat... squishy, for lack of a better term.

This is where I go into a little bit of Deathmatch Theory™.  In the original games, the weapons were designed for killing monsters, and worked on a system of starting weak and getting progressively stronger until you got some "room-clearing super weapon".  Wolfenstein 3D is the best example of this, since it's the simplest.  Start with knife and pistol.  Get machinegun.  Get gatling gun.  Each gun got better because it could hose more badguys down faster.  Doom was pretty much the same way - pistol, shotgun, chainsaw, chaingun, rocket launcher, then in Ep 2 plasma rifle, and Ep 3 BFG9000.  Quake 1, Quake 2 also followed this pattern.  Deathmatch was an afterthought until Quake 2, where some minor weapon balancing took place.  Basically for deathmatch the blaster damage was increased, hyperblaster damage decreased, railgun damage severely decreased, and chaingun damage very slightly decreased.  Getting pegged with a railgun in a coop Q2 game was no fun because it does 150 points in single player/coop.  Quake 3 Arena, on the other hand, is multiplayer by design, so the weapons were designed to all be somewhat balanced.  Ammo is extremely plentiful, and no weapon is a "dominating" weapon except that damned BFG.  Pretty much any weapon can dominate any other except the grenade launcher and machinegun under most circumstances.  This is why all the weapons seem weak when stacked against their counterparts from the other classes.  Arena's rocket launcher does nowhere near the knockback of Slipgate's, nor the damage of Doom's, nor the speed and reach of Earth's mortar.  His shotgun is a pop-toy compared to Doom's double-barreled cannon.  His plasmagun may be fast, but it can't saturate a room and pin you to the wall the way Doom's can.  His lightning gun is a joke compared to the old Thunderbolt.  Strogg's railgun may not do any more damage and may have a slower refire, but it's a hell of a lot more intimidating, and that chaingun of his can shred a Gladiator faster than that lightning gun can electrocute someone, and the chaingun's range isn't nearly as limited.  Where Arena's strength lies is home turf advantage, abundance of ammo, fast weapon refires, and fairly equivalent damage across the board.  The other classes have their strong weapons, and also have some weak ones.  Arena has an arsenal of ho-hum weapons but he does not have too many "Sucks!" weapons.  This is where the law of averages takes over, and that's where the class really shines.  Some classes get screwed royally on certain maps and completely dominate others.  Arena pretty much does the same no matter where you stick him.
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« Reply #5 on: 2005-05-24, 21:09 »

Quote
BTW i play Gen since .99c, so i think i know what my oppinion is.
 

ha , you never played with the doomsupershotgun from version 99a , now that was a bAD m****r F****r . ( and I still think it should return . :rules:
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« Reply #6 on: 2005-05-24, 21:19 »

Finally a fair judgement of the class. It's a "all-weapon balanced" class, and i like it! An Arena with a RL is enough to make a guy jump, giving him time enough to kill the flying guy. This is, when used properly. Like DooM once a guy is cornered, it's easy to kill him with the gauntlet. Like Strogg, the railgun has a gigantic range and it's, in most of the cases, lethal, ending up with gibbing the hitted player. Like Slipgater, he has a good and fast shtogun, wich can kill a guy in 2 shots when close, although it isn't as good as DooM's SSG or Strogg's SSG, but it's faster. And, like Eart and Strogg, it has a decent starting weapon : a machinegun that, when accurate, you can easily kill a guy.

Thank you Golden Flying Bird for your oppinion.
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« Reply #7 on: 2005-05-24, 21:48 »

I never really liked Arena... I never reallyed hated them either. I usually use randomized, but sometimes I go Doom only.
« Last Edit: 2005-05-24, 21:52 by Footman » Logged
Tabun
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« Reply #8 on: 2005-05-25, 00:18 »

That deathmatch theory is exactly what happens, but it works two ways. Arena has only useful weapons, and the way each weapon outshines the weaker weapons of other classes balances out the fact that most of the weapons are likewise underpowered compared to the stronger weapons of said classes. It all works out quite acceptably, and it means it is easier to play with, since (just like Pho said) there is more consistency in the arsenal.

When I would say I 'hate' Arena, which I don't (so stop using that inappropriate word here Slipgate - Tongue), I would only refer to exactly that which both Pho and myself have referred to in this thread. Arena as the figurehead of a conservative and fearful approach to playing Generations, hiding behind 'what you know' and 'what you can do' so you don't have to make an effort or take a chance.
If that's not what you're doing, and you've actually played /class random often enough to know what you're talking about, then don't feel like you're under attack yourself.

Just don't try to argue that if you go /class arena exclusively, you'll get as much out of Gen as everyone else, because you're missing out on a lot of things. Besides, it's always a little hurtful if you've made a modification of a game, and the greatest thing is the one that you've never touched.  Slipgate - Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: 2005-05-25, 00:22 by Tabun » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: 2005-05-25, 16:56 »

... essencially, use other classes to avoid the Q3A gameplay (for that i use the vQ3A), but that doesn't mean i don't use it every now and then... and i do like the Q3A BFG - in certain respect i find it an improvement over the previous incarnations, that's why i'm a nutcase :p . I also enjoy the "changed" GEN version of it, the more gameplay variety the better Slipgate - Smile ...

... and yes, they have a cool Rocket Launcher. One of the best working, sounding, and looking ones i've come to encounter - no argue :p There's only one other i'd place ahead, and that's the DooM Rocket Launcher (aka Blimp Laucher...)  :rules: ...
« Last Edit: 2005-05-25, 16:59 by Nahand » Logged
Moshman
 
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« Reply #10 on: 2005-05-25, 19:49 »

Here is the situation for me: [/u]

Earth class is a generally a short to medium range type class. Their weapons are not suited for long ranges. Even the Sniper, for there is a falling projectile so it is good for long ranges if you protean the skill.

I tend not to use this class often because the tactics in order to really use this class to its full potential, are to awkward for my tastes. I tend to use this class, when my aim seems good enough because this class requires some aiming/predicting/leading skills. (which these skills are most effective with this class in my opinion)

Doom Class is the ?anybody can pick it up?, and play it class. It requires no special skill to use, just the standard techniques. So this class is easy to play, but the weapons are kind of weak. Like the SSG is powerful, but inaccurate. The plasma projectiles are slow, and can be easily dodged, as the rockets can. To sum it up, Doom class is a series of high and low characteristics. It will own in one perspective, and get owned in another perspective.

I like this class when my focus is impaired for some reason, because this is a easy class to use.

Slipgate class is a simple class. You get 5 types of weapons: The Axe, Shotguns, Nail guns, Explosion type weapons, and your unique weapon the Thunderbolt. It also combines some elements from other classes as well. Like the nail guns act as a machine gun for players who?s aim is sub-par, so they can spam the nails. The shotguns, are actually really powerful, if your aim is up to par. The explosion type weapons are simplified and are easy to use. (easier then Doom?s rocket launcher)

I use this class a lot, since you can combine a lot of tactics into one. For instance I combine my plasma rifle tactics with my machine-gunning tactics when using the nail guns. I work with this class when I feel like developing more efficient tactics.

Strogg class offers a wide variety of weapons with unique characteristics bound to each one. You got your spam weapons, (BFG, Grenades) long range/accurate weapons, (railgun), explosion weapons (grenades, rocket launcher) et cetra, blah blah, yadda yadda, gobble gobble, blab blab, oink oink. *me tries to think of another annoying, onomanapiea* In addition, you can use a wide variety of tactics, bound to its weapon to achieve success.

I use this class a lot as well. Since I can apply all of my tactics to this class.

Arena class is an all-round class. It holds no real advantages or disadvantages. It will fit into almost every level with equal balance. (like Pho mentioned)

I like to use this class when I don?t want to deal with the ups and downs of other classes. Also this class is the class most at home to me. I do tend to use this class the most often.
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« Reply #11 on: 2005-05-25, 19:57 »

By playing as Gladiator, i do NOT mean to insult your work. My intention has never been insulting you guys. The mod is, in my oppinion, the greatest mod of Q3A. It bring back that "old school" feeling. That was the "missing link" in Q3A! And that is why I play Gen. The map only fitts with the proper Generation. Can you imagine how boring it is to play a Q1DM map without fighting a Slipgater (ok i think you know what i'm saying).

 Hail Hail to the kings baby!
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« Reply #12 on: 2005-05-25, 20:11 »

Quote
Earth class is a generally a short to medium range type class. Their weapons are not suited for long ranges. Even the Sniper, for there is a falling projectile so it is good for long ranges if you protean the skill.

I disagree. The MP-40, Sniper and mortar (a very fast and thus far-reaching projectile weapon) are all long-distance capable. The only weak point Earth has is ammo-shortage, especially if the player has some trouble aiming, or feels like using the dualgats. I play a stronger long-distance game with Earth than I do with Doom, Arena, Strogg and Slipgate, in the average situation.

Quote
Doom Class is the ?anybody can pick it up?, and play it class. It requires no special skill to use, just the standard techniques. So this class is easy to play, but the weapons are kind of weak. Like the SSG is powerful, but inaccurate. The plasma projectiles are slow, and can be easily dodged, as the rockets can. To sum it up, Doom class is a series of high and low characteristics. It will own in one perspective, and get owned in another perspective.

Agreed for the most part, except I'd add that Doom is a high-damage, high refire spammachine, without many weaknesses at this point. Gen's netcode also makes him twice as hard to hit with more precision demanding weaponry (ie. rails), because he tends to not-be-where-it-looks-like-he-is more often. I'd also argue that it takes some learning to use it efficiently in close quarters, which it is strongest in, while it also takes some learning to get close when you're picked on from a distance.. :]

Quote
Slipgate class is a simple class. You get 5 types of weapons: The Axe, Shotguns, Nail guns, Explosion type weapons, and your unique weapon the Thunderbolt. It also combines some elements from other classes as well. Like the nail guns act as a machine gun for players who?s aim is sub-par, so they can spam the nails. The shotguns, are actually really powerful, if your aim is up to par. The explosion type weapons are simplified and are easy to use. (easier then Doom?s rocket launcher)

Simple is the last word I'd use when describing Slipgate. The combination of air-control and a strong dependance on the available weapons and ammo make it one of the more (if not the most) complex and difficult classes to work with. Nailguns are more justly compared to Arena and Strogg plasma-class weapons, which operate quite differently from their machineguns. I do agree that the shotgun (at least the double barreled version) can pack a decent punch if you can use it at speed. Using the Rocketlauncher to the fullest (which means tossing people around effectively and in the directions you want) is not as simple as it may seem, especially when you consider that the code involved differs from the default (Arena) projectile code, meaning it takes a while to get used to. In any case: not simple. ;]


And in conclusion, since I agree entirely on your description of the Arena class: this again establishes that the latter is the most uninspiring of the available classes :]
I most definitely am not insulted when someone insists on playing Arena Gladiator class exclusively, just when they consider it the greatest class of all time... :]
« Last Edit: 2005-05-25, 20:13 by Tabun » Logged

Tabun ?Morituri Nolumus Mori?
Moshman
 
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« Reply #13 on: 2005-05-25, 20:17 »

Good point. Maybe I call slipgate a simple class because I played Quake 1 ALOT online. Even after Quake 2's debuit (which I never played online.

You missed a class though, in your analysis :^)
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« Reply #14 on: 2005-05-26, 06:29 »

The Doom class tends to be high-damage, short-range.  He's fast, but his armor is weak (unless you can tank to 200/200).  At close range he is the most lethal thing in the game, but getting in close is the trick.  If you get pegged even once by a railgun you're going to be fragbait for the next guy who gets a shot on you.  Doom tends to be spammy by nature because of his rockets and plasma, but the shotguns are where he seriously kicks ass in the hands of a skilled player.  If you can get in and pop someone point blank with that Combat Shotgun they're either dead or close to it, and that 12 gauge can wear down someone at medium range pretty quick.  The chaingun is slightly overpowered right now, so at present he really doesn't have a "weak" weapon besides the pistol and (non-berserked) fist attack.  Doomers kill pretty easy, and die pretty easy if you can hit them.  The idea of "grab gun, run up close, shoot someone in the face" applies to all of Doom's weapons, which is pretty much why he seems easy to use.  Using him effectively requires knowing how to dodge ordinance on the way in though, otherwise you just hand frags to your opponents.  A highly skilled Doomer can be one of the most difficult opponents you'll run into.

Tab:  Gen's netcode for player movement is pretty much default Q3.  Doom's speed is what makes him hard to predict.  I don't know how many times I've missed Angst with a railgun by a whisker, though there are some other Doomers that I peg on a regular basis. Slipgate - Wink

The Slipgate class is suffering a slight physics problem with jumping right now, which is acting as a bit of a handicap.  I don't care what anyone says, it is not an easy class to use.  It can be a very punishing class if you're good with it, but if you're not good with it then you're a target.  I can't hit the broad side of a hangar with that rocket launcher, which really hurts my score if I use the class.  Every other rocket launcher in the game I can predict with except that one for some reason.  Shaft, on the other hand, I can pin people with and I can lead nails very well.  If you can hit people with the rocket launcher you're a lethal force, otherwise expect an uphill fight.

KruzadeR:  I'm not offended if you like the Arena Gladiators, and I hope you didn't take any of my blanket criticisms as being personally directed at you.  I expect a lot of Q3 players to like and use the class, that's what it's there for.  That you appreciate the gameplay mix added by the other classes makes me happy.  That's the goal of Gen.  Some of us old-schoolers aren't drawn to that class in particular, and there's a little "best class bravado" that goes around with any player, that's all part of the game.  Arena isn't my favorite by any means, but I find ways to make it fun, and since the new BFG has come into play I actually enjoy having the class turn up in a random match once in a while now.  At present, I can't think of any class I dislike with a passion at this point.  Since I've been working on some of the new code even the Slipgate class is starting to grow on me.
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« Reply #15 on: 2005-05-26, 09:08 »

Why is this even a discussion? The title alone makes me want to deficate... profusely!
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« Reply #16 on: 2005-05-26, 13:56 »

Washu:
I was just responding to your post Washu, I have said enough about some things in the past ;]

Pho:
I also have trouble making those Slippy rockets connect still, and I've had time enough to adjust. I'm not complaining, but it is fun to note. Doing air-rockets with slipgate is quite a feat, and all the more rewarding if you pull them off :]


Q3A Vanilla Netcode is not something to write home about, so that makes sense to me. The way one appears to others is totally related to their personal settings and connection, making lag and bumpy connections (people using Kazaa or BTT perhaps) a very noticeable problem.

There are a few regulars on the Euro server that are twice as hard to hit with precision weaponry, because half of the time they seem to be not there. They teleport from position A -> position C, and your shot aimed at B in between misses unexplainably. The entire environment is observed at a steady 125 fps (or whatever your com_maxfps is), while half of the players look like they  move about at half that, creating a very disturbing circus in which direction prediction is quite tough at times.

Only when a connection to a server is really smooth (say, mine or Alu's), when the users disable anything that's on the upload or affects the bandwidth in any serious way, when there are no other odd packetdrops or ping spikes, only then does it look like a player moves normally (ie. like one would locally).

My guess is that Doom's speed makes the 'gap' between position A and Position B (as described earlier) bigger. Because of the speed he'll be further from where you thought he was if you predicted wrongly, but even if you predict correctly, timing can cause you to miss more easily than anything moving at slower speeds.

This is my explanation of what I see, and it might just be that there's no 'gap' to speak of, but it's just my prediction that's affected by choppy play, I'm not ruling that out. I just wouldn't be surprised at all if that's what is happening.

It is said that other popular mods have adjusted the netcode, but I know little to none about that, nor have I played them anytime recently. I'd like to do some comparing or asking around to see if there's any truth in this, and maybe test Kingu's appearance in those mods, since he's one of the unfortunates with a very unstable connection..
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« Reply #17 on: 2005-05-26, 22:30 »

About the "gap from point A to point B", you're correct.  What happens is a player's movement is determined by commands received by the server.  This is why people in Q2 could pull off some pretty sick tricks.  I know, because I used to do this.  Ever hear of the "Matrix Jump"?  Probably have, but for those here who might not know what it is basically you'd set off 3 rockets without leaving the ground, then fly up to an absurd height.  It wasn't very useful in Deathmatch because of self-damage, but in Rocket Arena (especially if armor damage was disabled) you could get to some places very high in a real hurry.  You could also do an "air stop" to screw up someone's prediction of where you were going to land.  This was all done with a bind that threw your cl_maxfps temporarily to 0.

Q3 doesn't allow the "matrix jump" behavior as far as I know, but the player movement code works similar in that the logic goes like this:

client processes user commands (keyboard + mouse input, etc)
client transmits user commands to server
server receives user commands
server processes user movement based on user commands

The server's handling of the player movement is dependent upon receiving the client commands on a timely and consistent basis.  Anything that screws up the user commands is going to cause the player's position to "hitch".  A flood of stacked user commands being received all at once will cause the user to "run really fast".  The only network code changes that handle player movement that I'm aware of are those mods that used "unlagged" code, which just makes backup copies of user commands and "virtually cycles the server backward" to test against client locations at a previous time.  Nice if you like being shot before you got shot, it's just lag in reverse where instead of the HPB getting snagged and pulled out from behind that wall they just ran past by a railgun shot, the LPB gets pulled out from behind the wall instead.  The problem is that it still relies on user commands to update the player, so if previous snapshot's playerstate information was bad, cycling the server back isn't going to help any.  In order to fix the problem of "teleporting players" the server would have to extrapolate their movement, which opens another can of worms as follows:

server stops receiving movement commands temporarily.
server extrapolates movement based on previous movement states.
client's connection smooths, now we have a choice:
a)  Update the client to reflect the extrapolated movement (makes the client's prediction bad)
b)  Update the server with the commands just received (makes the player teleport even worse to other clients)

At this point the server would have to decide which commands to keep and which to throw out.  The problem is a gappy connection and a lagged connection behave very much the same, so you'd have the client in that situation being updated like you're playing with cg_nopredict if the aperture is set too small.  If set to large, it wouldn't do any good anyway.  The server updating a client tends to be extremely bad for prediction, which is why it usually isn't done unless some absurd timeout level is hit.  If instead we extrapolate movement the player will predict differently, and any correction to the extrapolation will result in the player "teleporting" to the new location as far as what other players would see.  It would actually make movement appear worse.

The other option would be to try to "fill in the gaps" between the current player position and the previous one.  If you don't have a position to update to, you can't fill in any gaps, and by the time you have the data it's already time to update the client so there's no real room for interpolating it on the server.  Player movement actually is gappy anyway because of client-side interpolation.  Ever see how Quakeworld handles player movement?  That's what is really going on inside the server.  A smooth running player is actually updating every server snapshot and just looks like they're moving smoothly.  That's the nature of any snapshot-based system.  Increasing number of server snapshots sent per second could "fill in the blanks" so to speak, but then you increase everyone's network load in the process, and it's an exponential increase on the server's load.  Doubling the snapshot rate with 2 clients playing quadruples the outbound server network load since it has to update 2 clients twice as often.  Throwing 10 clients on the server I don't even want to discuss.  It also increases the server's CPU load, which tends to make server admins grumpy.

Now it might be possible to fix the gappiness a little by telling the server to "interpolate" between the last snapshot position and the current one prior to calculating collisions, but this will have the effect of stretching the hitboxes out.  A moving player would then have a larger chance of taking damage, and the more perpendicular to the shot you were and faster you were moving, the greater that chance becomes.  Those fancy dodge moves of some players would only serve to increase their target profile, and a hasted player or someone flying off a bouncepad would have a very long targettable area.  You'd have more of a benefit by sitting still and crouching and decreasing your hitbox size.  I don't think anyone wants that.

I'd love to have a good solution to this, but the balancing act of network load vs server precision is pretty much already optimized.  I can reduce network useage on the weapons quite easily, I just can't see any good way to improve player movement code without radically altering the entire way player movement is handled, which would affect everything from physics to prediction.  I wish everyone's network connection was nice and smooth like mine.  Maybe that explains why I get railed 10x as much as some other players?
 Slipgate - Wink
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« Reply #18 on: 2005-05-26, 22:36 »

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What net connection you have? I have a 512kbps DSL, but i'm  changing it to a 1mbps DSL.
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Tabun
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« Reply #19 on: 2005-05-27, 01:36 »

Quote
Maybe that explains why I get railed 10x as much as some other players?

You wink when you say that, and I actually think that's quite true. In fact, simply turning on some download will actually help you survive in the arena's, instead of diminish your chances..

Anyway, it goes without saying that the Unlagged doesn't work. Anyone that's seen it in action will probably agree it's a horrible experience in most cases. Interesting read, clears quite a few things up, too.

It would be cool if there was some cvar way to smoothen out the lagged players (something the cg_smoothclients settings used to do LONG, LONG ago, I think), even though it doesn't change the actual hitbox. As long as it doesn't look like some part of the game is chugging along at 10-30 fps, it at least remains a pleasure to look at, even though there would be skips and jumps at points where the prediction would be incorrect, ofcourse. I have no idea if this is at all feasible, but it sounds like id at one point tried to do this themselves.


I have Dutch ADSL, 8000 kbps down (effectively ~6000) - 1024 kbps up (effectively ~700). Although there's some ping shifting to even close servers (my ping to the Euro server is between ~10 and ~30), it's a damned smooth ride.
« Last Edit: 2005-05-27, 01:38 by Tabun » Logged

Tabun ?Morituri Nolumus Mori?
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