Tabun
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A person that says "they had it coming" is a complete moron and should be arrested immediatly. Anyone who would have freedom of speech obstructed that way should be forced to be re-educated for the rest of their lives.Pho: I agree that help must come first, but also that help must come first in the future too, and preferrably as early as possible :] |
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« Last Edit: 2005-09-06, 15:09 by Tabun »
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| Tabun |
?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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scalliano
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The US breaches its own First Amendment all thie time. For example, just look at rapper Kanye West's anti-Bush comments on that TV fundraiser for the relief effort the other day. Ah, yes, you can't cos they were cut out ...
While I personally have serious issues with Bush over the Kyoto treaty, I really don't think it's relevant here. What I will say is that global warming will create more extreme weather conditions and we will see more incidents like this in the future. Granted, global warming is a natural phenomenon, and deforestation is a major issue, but to say that CO2 emmissions aren't a big part of the problem too is surprising to say the least.
As for the bit about billions of dollars in aid, I could also go into the ludicrous preconditions slapped on things like debt relief, not just by the US government but by others, including the British govenrment, but that's opening up a can of worms I don't want to get into, not to mention being off-topic.
Other than that, Pho, I think you've hit the nail on the head. There are people dying right now as I type this. It is not a time for judgement, that doesn't help anyone..
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PSN ID: scalliano
The Arena knows no gender, colour or creed, only skill.
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Phoenix
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The US breaches its own First Amendment all thie time. For example, just look at rapper Kanye West's anti-Bush comments on that TV fundraiser for the relief effort the other day. Ah, yes, you can't cos they were cut out ... It's funny you mention that because I heard all about it today, just what he said. Look, nobody's putting Kayne West in jail for his words. If a privately owned network decides to censor him, that's their business, somebody owns that company and nobody has a right to force them to air certain content unless it's governed by an FCC ruling or public broadcast law. Other than that, they can do whatever the hell they want to. People have a very distorted view of what the First Amendment means. The First Amendment controls the behavior of government, not privately owned companies. If Kayne West wants to shoot his mouth off nobody's stopping him, he's not being arrested or deprived of any civil rights here. |
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« Last Edit: 2005-09-06, 20:02 by Phoenix »
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scalliano
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Fair do's, Pho. I stand corrected. However, it still begs the question, did the network have something to lose by airing what he said?
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PSN ID: scalliano
The Arena knows no gender, colour or creed, only skill.
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Tabun
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The network itself might in theory not, but the corporations sponsoring (and controlling) it probably do...
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| Tabun |
?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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games keeper
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That's b/c we've been the world's penny bank for YEARS. W/o the USes money, a lot of these countries would be worse off than what they already are. Say what you want, but a lot of that debt is b/c we give it to other countries to help them. I'm sorry that our country feels the need to help its fellow men.
you have the marshall plan. and in what other countries did you pump money in afterwarts pls ? |
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Lopson
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Tab, I was laughing while posting that, so it's a joke.
You know you pointed out something very important that purely irritates me : Censor of political opinions in musics. Another example : System of a Down have a "Censored" version and a "Non-Censored" version of all CDs and I can't understand the why for this situation. Why do they censor political opinions in musics? They're in a free country, why should they be censored? Scalliano made a good question : Does the network have something to lose by airing those oppinions?
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Woodsman
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That's b/c we've been the world's penny bank for YEARS. W/o the USes money, a lot of these countries would be worse off than what they already are. Say what you want, but a lot of that debt is b/c we give it to other countries to help them. I'm sorry that our country feels the need to help its fellow men.
you have the marshall plan. and in what other countries did you pump money in afterwarts pls ? I said it before and ill say it again. READ A GODDAMN NEWSPAPER!!! The US has given billions in foriegn aid over the years. How much has belgium given exactly?. |
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Tabun
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They're in a free country, why should they be censored? This is only a distant cousin of the censorship (or other strategies) used to block the news from getting to the people. It's one thing to be (overly) puritanical about lyrics or texts (I can at least see some merit in preventing obscene language from becoming the norm through the youngest generations), it's entirely something else to call a meeting and decide and devise what an alledgedly critical and objective news channel is going to tell the people. I think it's definitely wrong to modify the message of an artist. I cannot call all sources (of music, for instance) true artistry though. If someone censors the entirely manager-created message that the 'backstreet boys' or 'britney spears' & alikes, no beauty or sincere message is destroyed. You may argue that this is certainly not the case for SoaD (and I probably would agree), but there's a big difference between information as a creative outlet and information that informs you what's really going on in the world. For instance, I wouldn't be quick to call censorship of 'f uck' propaganda, whereas that word would spring readily to mind whenever a news corporation would withhold sincere opinions or other real world reflections from the viewers. P.S. I have no idea what post you consider a joke? I've seen a few that are eligible.. P.P.S. Woods: you've probably never heard of the so-called "Economic Hitmen" or EHMs :] |
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« Last Edit: 2005-09-07, 15:15 by Tabun »
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| Tabun |
?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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Phoenix
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Games, climb out of your hole and do your own research for a change.
Regarding censorship, I see a huge difference in censoring factual data, and censoring the incessant ramblings of an obvious political hack who just wants to shoot his mouth off at the expense of a network. I can see a great deal of benefit for judicious censorship in regards to the latter. Just imagine if every whacko out there were given equal air time for a moment. Wouldn't that suck. 
Then there's the subjective side to the "artist's" message, in that what is defined as art by the (presumed) artist is not necessarily received as art by society as a whole. I can think of numerous examples, but I will refrain from listing them because I find them too offensive to discuss. As for censorship and message... System of a Down, for example, are political hacks who use music (if you can call it that) to push their message across. I'd hardly consider that to be art myself, but rather politics disguised as art. I know sometimes it can be difficult to separate the two, since art is often critical of society (historically it has been anyway), but the difference to me at least is the primary motive. A real artist sees his art as his primary motivating factor and may choose to use it for a political motive, whereas a hack is motivated primarily by the politics and will never deviate from the political agenda. Now why they would have separate versions of songs is the same reason you have separate versions of rap - one for the radio, one for the CD. The more "tasteful" version is "safe" for broadcast, and is used as a hook to sell the REAL version. This is commonplace, and it is a form of self-censorship imposed by the music industry on itself for just this reason. It's blatantly hypocritical, yes, but that's how the whole entertainment industry is. Why SoaD may not be censoring for swear words, but rather message is obvious to anyone who actually reads their lyrics. Just consider what they probably think of Clearchannel or other broadcast companies who they rely upon to attract an audience. They're afraid they'll tick off the "evil repressive people" they rely upon for their bread and butter if they did not release an alternate, toned down version. It's just simple paranoia.
As for altering the message of an artist, it happens constantly. Every book written is passed through an editor, every movie filmed goes to a cutting floor, every painting made is scrutinized and judged upon before being displayed in a gallery. Artists are routinely run out, ridiculed, and dismissed by those who appoint themselves as critics. Society censors art of every kind, and quite often there is a good deal of art that exists specifically to criticize society for this very reason. I see it as part of the creative process, for with nothing to comment on, all art becomes vague abstraction, void and without form, and without constraints and censors anything can get passed off as art. Pure expression, I think, is what humans rarely have the opportunity to engage in, owing to how society works. If you're looking for that, listen to a bird's song or watch the play of very young children. Pure expression in art is extremely hard to find because artists always impose constraints upon themselves, and society imposes further constraints.
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Tabun
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who just wants to shoot his mouth off at the expense of a network It is my opinion that it is not for the network to decide when someone 'just wants to shoot his or her mouth off', that is a decision to be made by the people, or at least by groups of people that are independent of economical and/or political bonds with corporations or the state. Ofcourse it is not a good idea to greatly increase nonsensical babbling, ego-tripped rantings, etc, but that's besides the point. I just don't trust the ability of media corporations to make acceptable choices. Restrictions of the artist do no harm to their expression and its message, as far as I'm concerned, that becomes part of the art when they decide to restrict it so. Something that goes in directly against what the artist can agree on, on the other hand, is harmful to the artist's work and its meaning. Thus, if it is the bands on decision to filter out 'bad' words, they change the meaning and form of their work. In my opinion, that does not harm the album, for instance, since the creators of the album are the source of the error, if there are any to be found - if you really don't like it, dislike the authors (as authors, not as persons, obviously). BTW, we'll probably never agree on many aspects, and it is a rather complicated issue. For example, I cannot call the song of a bird 'art', no more than that I label a volcanic eruption in those terms, and I don't use the same definition of 'purity' in these cases. Even though purity (as it is used before) can seldomly be encountered, I see no reason to avoid striving for it. I know plenty of bands that get their expressions out there in the way they must have intended it, just like I know many independant movie directors who have no trouble achieving their desired level of 'purity' and getting at least the proper message out. I just don't expect that to happen with blockbuster material. |
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?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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Moshman
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The purpose of freedom of speech was to give people the right to speak out against the government, not so you can rap about your homies, rolling blunts, selling drugs, pimping "white bitches", and banging latinas. That shit is pointless and corruptful to an unguided mind.
For the sake of arguement, what if I wrote a song "expressing" my desire to fly planes into buildings, or to put date rape drugs into people's drinks. (note I really have no desire any of these things) It would be off the shelf in moments, and they'd send me to Bellveiw with all the other quacks and nuts. (Bellveiw is a famous mental institute) So why not for all these "gangster rappers" "expressing" they're desire to rape people
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« Last Edit: 2005-09-08, 00:22 by Little Washu »
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Tabun
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Pho: I understood that, but purity of artful expression and purity of nature are also different things to me :]  That shit is pointless and corruptful to an unguided mind. Pointless to you - to another, an 'unguided mind' is a free one, capable of free thought, and thus, free speech. The of the post I will ignore, since it shows that there's apparently a misunderstanding of the intentions of lyrics. |
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| Tabun |
?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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scalliano
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The purpose of freedom of speech was to give people the right to speak out against the government, not so you can rap about your homies, rolling blunts, selling drugs, pimping "white bitches", and banging latinas. That shit is pointless and corruptful to an unguided mind.
For the sake of arguement, what if I wrote a song "expressing" my desire to fly planes into buildings, or to put date rape drugs into people's drinks. (note I really have no desire any of these things) It would be off the shelf in moments, and they'd send me to Bellveiw with all the other quacks and nuts. (Bellveiw is a famous mental institute) So why not for all these "gangster rappers" "expressing" they're desire to rape people Get rid of that and what are you left with? TIMBERLAKE. |
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PSN ID: scalliano
The Arena knows no gender, colour or creed, only skill.
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Tabun
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I largely ignore the music industry. When I think of 'rap', I think of, say, the Westside Connection. There's a lot more to that than making money and I don't believe there's some marketing scheme going on there. The latter is certainly true for a lot of crap out there, and I've already put them in the 'garbage' category.
Btw, I don't get the timberlake thing either.
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| Tabun |
?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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Tabun
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Hehe - there's a thriving indie culture, musically, in the states too, so it's not as obvious a difference - I only now realize that we may have been working with different impressions, too. :]
Anyway, back on topic...
I hear Fats Domino has been found?
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| Tabun |
?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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Lopson
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The jazz singer right? He was found on the roof of his home by a helicopter. BTW I think he means "Justin Timberlake"...
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