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scalliano
 

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« Reply #20 on: 2006-03-31, 15:56 »

Slipgate - Off Topic True science challenges itself to be disproven. NS is a scientific theory and like all others it invites others to question it. ID on the other hand, as Tab said, is based on theology and therefore doesn't. So far nobody to my knowledge has come up with a better explanation of how we got here so I'm sticking with NS for the time being. Thumbs up!  Slipgate - Off Topic

Now for a slightly more on-topic humourous interlude, a quote from a spoof ad from GTA-SA lobbying to just let people stay in the country illegally (???):

[q]"... Illegal aliens play a major role in our way of life. If we gave them a green card, soon they would be just like us: fat, lazy and too stupid to do menial tasks ..."[/q]
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« Reply #21 on: 2006-03-31, 19:01 »

Mind you, I didn't say it was based on theology, because it isn't necessarily so. It does provide an asylum ignorantiam.
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Phoenix
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« Reply #22 on: 2006-03-31, 19:39 »

Quote from: scalliano
True science challenges itself to be disproven
Yes, true science does.  What I take issue with is when those who promote a theory treat it as fact and refuse to allow alternative ideas to be discussed.  Evolution, along with the Big Bang theory, are taught as the defacto explanations of where life and the universe began.  It's taught to young children as the only explanation, and those who teach it refuse to allow other ideas to be brought up - or are told by their administrators they better not talk about anything different.  If you question it or promote another idea.. well, let's just say that thinking has no place in modern schools.  At least religion is more honest in the fact that it does not hide the fact that it wants to indoctrinate people to think a certain way. Slipgate - Exhausted

Another problem with the debate between intelligent design and evolution is that the perception of what the intelligent design theory actually is versus what it's portrayed as.  In fact, has anyone here even read the theory?  Does anyone know what it actually says, or are we all just going by what the media says?  I haven't read it myself.  I hear a lot about it, about how some people want it to be taught, and some people don't.

I'll have to hunt it down and read the theory some time, but here's my little pet theory about this whole debate.  I think the people who promote evolution to the point of excluding intelligent design or any other alternative to evolution can't stand the thought of an anyone thinking differently within scientific circles.  Those people are afraid of dissenting thought when it comes to their own worldview, they're afraid of different ideas.  After all, a theory like intelligent design might lead someone to a different conclusion, and if it leads them to believe that maybe some kind of deity is behind life and the universe that's strictly verboten by a scientific establishment that is based on secularist atheism.  I treat this kind of "science" as just another religion because it acts with all the worst traits of one.  It evangelizes and spreads its "gospel" by excluding all other thought, and it persecutes its heretics with a zeal matched only by those who led the Inquisition.  A pure science would not dismiss any possibility, including the possibility of life having some kind of designer, even if it considers such possibilities unlikely.  It certainly would not seek to silence alternative lines of thought.  It would seek to explore, and discover, and to understand.

Before anyone offers retort, bear in mind that I am not attacking the theory of evolution itself here, only the behavior of its more vocal proponents.  I think there is a problem in assuming that scientists and teachers of scientific theory belong on a pedastal, and that they have no agendas.  Everyone has an agenda.  It's just that some are more honest about it than others.

Tab:  I would offer that the only true asylum ignorantiam is arrogance and pride.
« Last Edit: 2006-03-31, 19:40 by Phoenix » Logged


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Tabun
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« Reply #23 on: 2006-03-31, 22:13 »

Quote
Does anyone know what it actually says, or are we all just going by what the media says?

I know a fair deal about it. Most of the material that is said to belong to ID-theory is no more than a collection of attacks on (neo-)darwinism. The latter, I would sooner consider a part of darwinistic science itself, since it is either non-constructive or a tool for adapting and evolving (Slipgate - Wink) the theory (that includes dealing with attacks of those who simply don't comprehend their target, along with arguments on mathematical grounds or involving physics). The former, I at least know enough about to fight the popular idea that it is 'theology' or 'ufo-fanatic'-material. For those looking to read some works from an ID proponent, you might want to give Behe a try.


Quote
I am not attacking the theory of evolution itself here, only the behavior of its more vocal proponents

As with politics, often the most vocal proponents - as well as opponents - seem to know the least. Their arguments are arguments of passion, fear or, as you say, arrogance. Those can all go on the bollocks-pile, as far as I'm concerned.
Like I said, I'm interested in any theory that works, and I believe no interference or normative actions are required to 'set science right'.
Bad theories have a tendency to be kept alive by fervent promoting, but they don't last forever. I don't know how everyone thinks about Popper's falsificationism, Kuhn's theory of scientific revolutions, or Lakatos' ideas of degenerative and progressive science, but I feel there's at least some truth in all them: not just anything can stay around for long at the frontlines.
Good science, whether dogmatic or not, delivers results. It provides a steady base for development of theory and it delivers a results (glow-in-the-dark corn and mices with ears on their backs aren't exactly the kind of things the average reader considers 'results', but they 'prove' a theory 'works', nonetheless).
ID comes up with a more pragmatic scientific system, in spite of its current status? Fine with me, bring on the new theories and results! If it stands half a fighting chance, it will grow. If not, it will probably become a cult item for small groups. There's even people around who believe in a flat earth, so if that ever turns out to be true 'again', we've got some folks ready to rumble.
I therefore do not share the fear of ID that some darwinists express. Nor do I share the fear of dogmatism in darwinistic science. Nor even what is taught in schools. Eventually people will look back  and chuckle about the silly ideas and endaevours of predecessors, no matter what they were, regardless of the fact that it got them 'there' eventually.

I stick to my stance on the 'escape to ignorance'. Anything that is dogmatically called a mystery or 'a thing we cannot ever hope to find out', is being banned from our quest for knowledge. Whether it is arrogance, fear or pride that causes people to try is not important to me. If one believes man is not meant to know certain things then one simply believes that the asylum is good - as it well might. I don't think it is, but each to his own. ;]
« Last Edit: 2006-03-31, 22:17 by Tabun » Logged

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Phoenix
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« Reply #24 on: 2006-03-31, 22:34 »

No real arguments from me there.  However, I'm concerned that so long as institutions that are responsible for indoctrinating and training young minds (let's be honest about what schools do here) work to restrict thought and limit what is available to be presented as fact or truth they're forcing people into the asylum without them even knowing there's something wrong.  I'm reminded of 1984, where Winston goes around with an ulcer on the side of his leg through the whole story.  Never is treated, nor is there any thought about treatment.  It's just accepted that it's there.  That, more than anything else, got my attention because it shows the results of the restriction of thought and idea - it was never questioned.  If you feed someone shit and keep them in the dark from the time they are born, will they know there's such a thing as light, or what they're being fed?  Or will they just accept it because they've known no different?  After thinking that way for so long, you think they'll welcome new ideas with open arms, or reject it at the end of a gun?

In Nazi Germany, people were told all sorts of things, things that were harmful to the world, and to themselves.  Yet, they believed it.  Why?  Germans are not stupid people, they have some of the best technical minds on the earth.  It wasn't lack of intellect.  It was because nobody was allowed to say anything different.  Nobody was allowed to think any different.  Those who did were quickly silenced.  We see this sort of mind control in every dangerous regime in the world.  Religions get blamed for it constantly by those who dislike religion, but the truth is any institution can bring about this kind of control so long as people don't question it.  It certainly doesn't need a theology at the helm.  You say you're not worried about what they teach in schools?  You should be.  I for one would prefer that the people who look back and chuckle not be the machine men whose only honor is to obey.
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Thomas Mink
 

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« Reply #25 on: 2006-04-01, 05:03 »

Quote from: Phoenix
What I take issue with is when those who promote a theory treat it as fact and refuse to allow alternative ideas to be discussed.
Thumbs up! <--- Doesn't Doom wear a brown glove? :o
« Last Edit: 2006-04-01, 05:14 by ~SpAwN~ » Logged

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Kajet
 

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« Reply #26 on: 2006-04-01, 05:32 »

*looks at the flaming wreckage that the derailed topic has become and rubs hands*

yes, good good muhahahaha  Sipgate - Evil
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Phoenix
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« Reply #27 on: 2006-04-01, 06:52 »

The topic is not so derailed as you think.  We're discussing incompetence in leadership, and the dangers of such.  The original context was recursiveness in legislation, but that's a subgroup of leadership concerns.  Oh, and Spawn:  

:rules:  Slipgate - Off Topic
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Dr. Jones
 

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« Reply #28 on: 2006-04-02, 12:12 »

I will pop in from nowhere in particular to throw in my quasi-off-topic thoughts on what I skimmed in approximately 2 minutes and 18 seconds...  Slipgate - Smile~

  • We shouldn't worry about making illegal immigration illegal, we should worry about enforcing the illegality.  *sighs*
  • Criminal (n): One that has committed or been legally convicted of a crime.
    Crime (n): An act committed [...] in violation of a law forbidding [...] it
    Forbid (tr. v): To prohibit
    Illegal (adj): Prohibited by law
    Thus, an illegal immigrant is a criminal.  "Less" of a criminal than a murderer certainly, but a criminal nonetheless, by the letter of the law and the... diction... of the dictionary.  Any "greater" or "lesser" connotation is purely cultural/societal, and beyond the scope of this argument.  In summary, I agree and disagree with you, Tab Slipgate - Wink
  • ID vs NS: Personally I believe in a "guided" version of most scientific evolutionary theories - sure there was a big bang, sure we evolved from apes.  But can you not take a metaphorical interpretation of Genesis and see parallels between Creationism and Darwinism?  TBH, I think both should be taught in school, and presented as belief (in the case of ID) and theory (in the case of NS) - with a clear emphasis that neither is documented indisputable fact.  But frankly, I think our society is too damn stupid and narrow-minded to be able to accomodate that.


*vanishes back into the shadows*  Slipgate - Ninja
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Thomas Mink
 

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« Reply #29 on: 2006-04-02, 18:30 »

Quote from: Dr. Jones
TBH, I think both should be taught in school, and presented as belief (in the case of ID) and theory (in the case of NS) - with a clear emphasis that neither is documented indisputable fact.  But frankly, I think our society is too damn stupid and narrow-minded to be able to accomodate that.
Slipgate - Thumbs up!
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Tabun
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« Reply #30 on: 2006-04-02, 19:03 »

Quote
connotation is purely cultural/societal, and beyond the scope of this argument

Well, that's where we disagree then, I guess.
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Phoenix
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« Reply #31 on: 2006-04-02, 20:52 »

Only until we assimilate you into the collective, Tab.  Resistance is futile!  Slipgate - Ninja
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McDeth
 

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« Reply #32 on: 2006-04-03, 17:57 »

Quote from: Phoenix
What I take issue with is when those who promote a theory treat it as fact and refuse to allow alternative ideas to be discussed.  
 
Interesting you would say that.
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Angst
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« Reply #33 on: 2006-04-04, 00:43 »

Quote
Quote
What I take issue with is when those who promote a theory treat it as fact and refuse to allow alternative ideas to be discussed.
Interesting you would say that.

Not particularly, pho has said much the same for years. He simply takes issue with people attacking his beliefs.

I fail to see what attacking any belief has to do with
Quote
allow(ing) alternative ideas to be discussed.

Now, this slippy doesn't look too happy..  Slipgate - Off Topic
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Phoenix
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« Reply #34 on: 2006-04-04, 03:19 »

McDeth, if you're going down the road I think you are, let me clarify something for you.  I will allow people to discuss different religious thoughts on this board, the same as different scientific theories.  What I will not permit is somebody misrepresenting or slandering someone's beliefs.  As a Christian, if someone attacks my beliefs they are attacking me personally.  I cannot and will not separate the two.  You can disagree with what I believe, and even discuss why, but I draw the line when someone starts trying to dictate to me what my beliefs are or behaving disrespectfully toward them.  I will not permit people to launch vicious personal attacks because someone hates someone's religion.  Period.

Second, If someone wants to discuss Budhism or Hinduism, Taoism, or what have you then I have nothing against that - provided it is done in a factual manner and with respect for those who follow such beliefs.  If you are sitting there thinking I'm some kind of a bloody hypocrite I can give you one prime example of what I'm talking about.  Tabun is agnostic and certainly thinks differently than I do with respect to religion and philosophy.  We still get along and can hold civil discussions.  I respect that he thinks what he thinks, and he respects that I think what I think . We may even consider each other ignorant or misguided.  The difference is that we treat each other with respect.  Does Tab's agnosticism alter my faith?  No.  Does my speaking of my faith with conviction alter Tab's thoughts?  I doubt it.  I don't attack him for his agnosticism, and he does not attack me for my faith in God.

So if we can coexist on these forums, with our thoughts so disparate, and even work together as team members, there's no excuse for the behavior of certain individuals who don't seem to know the meaning of the word respect.  Such individuals are trolls, and will not be welcome on these boards.
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McDeth
 

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« Reply #35 on: 2006-04-07, 21:27 »

Oh. Then I apoligize.

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« Reply #36 on: 2006-04-07, 23:52 »

Pho just put his metaphorical foot down...

McDeth just got bird slapped

 Slipgate - Laugh
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McDeth
 

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« Reply #37 on: 2006-04-07, 23:57 »

Quote from: SIN Plague
Pho just put his metaphorical foot down...

McDeth just got bird slapped

 Slipgate - Laugh
Say hello to your sister for me.
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« Reply #38 on: 2006-04-08, 05:35 »

No, I was just clarifying a point.  McDeth doesn't like the fact that I permanently banned dev/null.  I was explaining my reasoning and why it is not flawed nor hypocritical.
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Lopson
 

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« Reply #39 on: 2006-04-08, 10:11 »

What is up with that dev/null guy? What did he do that it was so wrong? And I apologize for my curiosity, it's just that you already brought this thing so many times, I had to get curious.
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