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Author Topic: Doom II Entryway map (and Strogg map: City Palace (W.I.P.))  (Read 84257 times)
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Tabun
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« Reply #80 on: 2009-08-15, 11:12 »

Yes, you should! And as before, I'd still help you out with textures (and feedback). :]

Here's the outside area in Doom II:

Looks green enough to me.. ;]

I'd do tufts of grass (keeping the textures as they are, though), but I really can't be bothered to model and skin them at the moment. If you know a good set of radiant-usable plants/grassy bits, I'd be very much obliged. :]

Later today I'll "release" a test version of this map. I'm going to try and get as much in there as I can, but it'll probably lack proper bot support.
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« Reply #81 on: 2009-08-15, 20:32 »

^^ well i tried to make the textures my own but im afraid i failed quite good at them -.- i'll send you them and you could try to use the "magic" touch on em and do something good out of em instead...

ah yes it was green thought it was, well might have worked back in the ol times but nowdays..well Slipgate - Smile
hmm well im sure there are some good terrain sets out there and that reminds me i need to find some on my own..
there is the q3 defaullt terrain asset but it looks like crap gray with some grass tufts so i whouldnt use that one Slipgate - Tongue

well i'll try to find sometime for mapping tomorrow, thought it sucks having 6 day work shift. (give me a new job plx!!!)
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« Reply #82 on: 2009-08-15, 21:53 »

There's one with grass tufts in Not Quite Earth, but it would not work on Entryway since the grass is most definitely green on map01.  I'd not want to make it grey or tan outside and spoil it.  As an oldschool Doomer, everything in the screenies looks good to me so far, so I'm waiting on a test version to get a real 3D, in-game look.  There's only so much one can tell from screenshots which is why I'm reserving a lit of critique until I can see the map from within and without, as it were.
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« Reply #83 on: 2009-08-16, 16:36 »

Here it is, the "alpha1" version of "Return to the Entryway":

http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/tabd2map01_alpha1.zip
(approx. 10Mb)
Note: don't distribute this any further. I don't want this version to give me problems when releasing a newer one. This is sort of a Wirehead test.. :]

You know the drill. Bots should work, although they are stupid as always, and won't go for the plasmagun. Gameplay is horrid, but this is (and correct me if I got it wrong!) the original Doom item layout.

Feedback is welcome, specifically with regards to:
  • Light levels (areas to dark, too bright, etc - in comparison to other q3 maps on your setup)
  • Clipping and geometry errors, HOM effects, trippy stuff
  • Texture errors: misaligned textures, missing textures, skybox, et cetera
  • Does the skybox have lines for you? With what video card/driver settings?
  • Doominess (though note that there are limits to what I'm willing to do, or even can do with this)
  • Enormously weird bot behaviour (beyond the basic stupidity)

Tips on anything else welcome aswell, ofcourse.

Some things that will change in later versions:
1. The little light over the door to the outside area will be altered.. doesn't look right to me now.
2. The lights in the sides of the big window will be made brighter.

Discussion and tips for possible good item layouts = very much welcomed. I'm not really sure how to tackle that one, other than to use a lot more of the map's areas than in the original layout.

I tested the map with Generations, and that seems to work fine (and is pretty neat with only DooM bots..).
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« Reply #84 on: 2009-08-17, 01:43 »

You know the drill. Bots should work, although they are stupid as always, and won't go for the plasmagun. Gameplay is horrid, but this is (and correct me if I got it wrong!) the original Doom item layout.

Feedback is welcome, specifically with regards to:
  • Light levels (areas to dark, too bright, etc - in comparison to other q3 maps on your setup)
  • Clipping and geometry errors, HOM effects, trippy stuff
  • Texture errors: misaligned textures, missing textures, skybox, et cetera
  • Does the skybox have lines for you? With what video card/driver settings?
  • Doominess (though note that there are limits to what I'm willing to do, or even can do with this)
  • Enormously weird bot behaviour (beyond the basic stupidity)

Tips on anything else welcome aswell, ofcourse.

Some things that will change in later versions:
1. The little light over the door to the outside area will be altered.. doesn't look right to me now.
2. The lights in the sides of the big window will be made brighter.

Discussion and tips for possible good item layouts = very much welcomed. I'm not really sure how to tackle that one, other than to use a lot more of the map's areas than in the original layout.

I tested the map with Generations, and that seems to work fine (and is pretty neat with only DooM bots..).

Ok, I loaded up the original map to compare.. and this isn't the original item layout. The items that are there are correct.. but.. there's numerous health items missing throughout the map, some pistol clips, the armor (and health) in the blue room secret area, a few armor helmets, the shotgun and shells outside (may as well make it a double shotty and shell box), and the RL behind the rocket box in that secret area.

I knew it looked a bit empty when I loaded it up and ran through it.. but that said, the original layout is a bit dubious to me. Why have two BFGs pretty much right next to each other? In fact, that whole 'start area' is a bit overpopulated in the weapon category. Just my opinion though.. but hey, it IS true to form in that regard.

I think the map looks great overall.. but perhaps the 'brown rooms' could be brightened up slightly more, not much tho.
I didn't notice any clipping..
..or texture errors..
..nor did the skybox have lines.
The map is quite 'Doomy'
The bots acted like bots as well.. but with the items that are missing in the map, they have no real reason to use any more of it than they currently do.

I liked the placeholder levelshot, oddly enough.. and also the little tidbit with the exit button. Two nice nostalgic cues. Slipgate - Smile

*** ..please note that you can disregard any of this about items if certain entities only work on a current internal version of Gen. ;o
« Last Edit: 2009-08-17, 01:45 by Thomas Mink » Logged

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« Reply #85 on: 2009-08-17, 02:55 »

I took a quick stroll through it with some bots tonight.  I'll give the map a more indepth technical look tomorrow as I don't have enough time to do so now.  Some initial impressions though, this is from a .99f runthrough:

Yes, many items are missing.  The main things I noticed are missing chainsaw (machinegun spawn) near the entrance, lack of a single shotgun outside (these will be important for oldschool mode), missing rocket launcher spawn in the room at the end of the hall with the rocket ammo box, and lack of health, armor, and ammo.  I'm not too concerned about those because it's an alpha, and I know item placement is in flux and this is a basic feel test, but I would like to see all the original items placed as they were in the original map.  For the green armor in the blue room's corner section, I'd spawn a yellow armor so it can be playable in normal Q3 that way.  That will also help give anyone spawning in that area somewhat of a chance to not instagib and make the area more purposeful to enter.

Lighting definitely needs some work.  The darker areas could use some ambience or subtle lights added, but the bright areas are sometimes a bit too bright.  The outdoors need to be toned down for certain.  The other area that's excessively bright is the blue room, above the platforms.  I think a reduction in overall ambience and the use of more specific lighting as highlights may be of help throughout the entire map.

I did not see any issues with texturing so far.  The skybox has no lines.  Video card is GeForce GT260 using latest drivers, I have texture clamping disabled in the driver.  I'll test tomorrow with clamping enabled and let you know what happens there.

Doominess is spot-on.  Sky texture is great, overall map appearance is as Doomy as you'll get.  The scale could be a tad smaller but if it's going to cause geometry problems I'd not try to force it.  As it is, it's unmistakable for nostalgia purposes.

Gameplay with the bots was right up where it should be in terms of how the map played in Doom 2.  With 4 bots it's gibs everywhere, as it should be.  It's a LOT harder to spawncamp the halls as in the original owing to the scale of the map, and the fact that Gen's Doomguy doesn't run 60mph.  That's a good thing in my opinion.  I think with the addition of the healthpacks in the exit room and other items around the map it will help with the gameplay flow as well.

A small geometry suggestion with the plasma gun.  Right now it's a hefty jump to get up there.  If there was an invisible stair-like botclip, the bots might be able to get up.  The alternative would be to shift the plasmagun's spawn slightly toward the elevator so the rifle can be grabbed by "bumping" the pad.  This was actually a tactic in Doom 2 to avoid having to go up the elevator to get the plasma rifle.  It's tricky to do.  It would be nifty if there was a way to make the bots ride the elevator and jump down to the plasma, but I have no idea what would be involved in that.

That's it for now.  I'll bugtest it for texture and geometry issues tomorrow.
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« Reply #86 on: 2009-08-17, 13:56 »

Ok. I've never really played Doom II's Entryway in multiplayer, so I had to load up the doom2.wad in an editor to see the items. I selected "multiplayer/deathmatch only" for an item filter, and what you see is what I got. I guess it leaves out a lot of stuff. :/ So I can't use that editor (Doom Builder) to see what items are DM vs what are SP only. Oh well. If anyone has a nice visual chart with the items for DM specifically, that'd be a great help! Otherwise, I'm going to have to see about loading up D2 for DM here, but I guess I'd have to get a special doom version for that?

About the items: I want to make three versions, unless that turns out to be a really bad idea.
1. Purist version (everything like it was in D2)
2. Normal Q3A version
3. Balanced Generations version

I don't know exactly how I want to pack those, but file size isn't much of a problem these days anyway. Besides, CTF in this one is pretty much out, so no need to worry about that, I guess.

Light issues can be helped, though it is iffy. I wanted to keep the contrast between the areas that was in the original, between indoors and outdoors. If I both tone down the outdoros and tone up the indoors, I'm afraid to get rid of the difference. The first thing I'll try is just to dim the sky texture's lighting function and the sun, that should help make it less overbright outside.

As I said before, ideal scale seems to be 0.7 times what I made the map in. If I can find a way to make the patches/curves behave, that would be workable. Maybe I can write up a script that does that scaling for me, though that sounds like a heck of a lot of work... Maybe I can try a different editor for it aswell, though I don't know of any better ones than GTKradiant..

By the way, I forgot to ask: how are FPS for you guys? On my non-gaming rig, I get drops in the chainsaw area and when I'm in the water in the big outdoorsy room.
« Last Edit: 2009-08-17, 14:01 by Tabun » Logged

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« Reply #87 on: 2009-08-17, 15:25 »

Visual map?  Say no more.  I've got some errands I have to take care of, but I'll get a map of the items loaded up later.  If nothing else I'll grab screenshots of everything in its correct place if I can't get my editor to work in XP.  I haven't run DoomCAD since DOS/Win 3.1.  Doom - Exclamation

Update:  DoomCAD likes XP, so I was able to compile a schematic.  Link is in a PM.
« Last Edit: 2009-08-17, 20:39 by Phoenix » Logged


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Tabun
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« Reply #88 on: 2009-08-18, 02:10 »

Phoenix's excellent nitpicking received and map treated. Fixed item placement. Anyone else find anything amiss?

By the way, Doom Builder has the nice feature of showing light levels in the original:
« Last Edit: 2009-08-18, 02:16 by Tabun » Logged

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« Reply #89 on: 2009-08-18, 20:08 »

Nifty feature, that!

A little more play testing brought to light some minor concerns with the brown room.  Right now it is possible to jump out that big window, removing the need to use the switch up the elevator to open the door.  In Doom 2 you could not get through that window, even rocket jumping in Zdoom you can't, though projectiles can pass through.  I'm not sure what you want to do there.  The simple answer is to playerclip it, as a solid glass would block shots from passing through.

A second thought was in regards to the ledge with the BFG, Rocket Launcher, and Combat Shotgun.  In Doom 2 part of the gameplay relied on the fact that you could not get back up there if you spawned somewhere else.  You might consider making it require a rocket jump to get up there as opposed to someone just jumping onto the small ledge and jumping up onto the weapons area.  It's not absolutely necessary but just a thought.

We may want to add more than the default 4 spawn points, mainly because of telefrag spawning.  Spawns in the shotgun courtyard and blue room, as well as additional spawns in the brown room might not be a bad idea.  I was also thinking about the door that leads to the shotgun courtyard.  Right now it's a one-shot open from the looks of it.  If you spawn out there you'll open the door on the way in, and nobody will ever use the switch.  Is it possible to make it close after about 30 seconds?  I was thinking the same for the secret door.  I know that works a bit different from the original, but the rocket box room's door is already working different, and I think it would add some gameplay value.  It would make people wanting out into that courtyard occasionally go for the switch.

Something else that could be done with that courtyard in a non-verbatim mode of the map, assuming multiple versions are done, would be to add a powerup to that area.  It would give anyone spawning out there the possibility of getting an edge since it's a blind area with a weak weapon spawn, and encourage occasional travel outside by other players, which would again tie into the switch usage.  I was thinking something along the lines of a regeneration or haste.  If a powerup is placed there the spawn points could probably be omitted from the courtyard in that version.  That would make for some interesting fights by the doorway since you'd have to get past someone possibly wielding a heavy weapon inside the brown room.  If there's no outdoor spawns you might even get away with a Quad/Regen teamchain to make things more interesting and chaotic.  Another alternative option would be to swap the spawns for the single shotgun and BFG that's down by the column, and replace the shotgun ammo outside with BFG ammo.  That would make for more map roaming as well.  This is all just food for thought for after the "classic" version is debugged and made very happy of course.
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« Reply #90 on: 2009-08-18, 23:09 »

First, the big window: I really don't want to make the (entire) window player-clipped. I see how it works for gameplay, but that way, spectators would be trapped on one side or the other (currently by default the outside, which is worse), as long as the door is closed. The spectator-door-teleport trick only works for normal doors, not triggered ones. I can also not make it look neat, as adding actual transparant-glass textures to that would cost too much GPU processing power... (but that is a side issue)
What I can try to do is clip the window so that you can only rocket/plasma-jump on it. The disadvantage of that is that it would work very counterintuitively and it will look odd if you're standing on nothingness in the upper part of the window.

I think I'll just make all switches "work" for 60 seconds (or perhaps 90...) and then switch back. Not sure what to do about the RL room, though. I could make it work like in Doom, btw, but I'm a little hesitant to do so.

I think I can make the start-area floor a bit higher up, so you can't jump on it normally, but I think I only want to do that for the/a purist version. Since there's a player spawn there, it's a little odd to use the area as a rocket-jumpable important-item spot in a rebalanced version.

Additional spawn points -- sounds like a good idea. No real need to go purist there, I guess.
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« Reply #91 on: 2009-08-18, 23:25 »

The spectator issue is fairly simple.  If players are going in and out the door in a match, naturally the door will be open to allow the spectator through as well.  If the door is closed and they get left out there for some reason, they can just click to follow a player, then a /team s will free them from following.  This is the only way to get out of the spectator spawn on Dunwich as well.  The only time you'd have an issue with a stuck spectator is if the spectator were to spawn in the outsdoor area on an empty map.  Either way, I'd be more concerned about gameplay for active players than spectators.  I'm also only suggesting an invisible playerclip be used, not a glass texture, since it is possible to shoot in and out of the window in Doom.
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« Reply #92 on: 2009-08-19, 01:50 »

Makes sense, fair enough. I'm clipping the window. :]

I quoted your private message here Phoenix -- hope you don't mind..

Quote

I gave the new version a try.  I loaded up 2 Doom bots, and 2 Phobos bots.  It was a blast as an all-Doom game.  It feels very much like playing on map01 in Doom 2, without the annoying instant death on spawn factor.  The map feels right for Doom deathmatch for certain.  I tried various classes vs the Doom bots, and Strogg was the only one I felt was severely challenged in an all-Doom environment.  This was primarily due to the fact that ALL the Doom bots in .99g will chainsaw rush on spawn, which is a factor in the playtesting I was expecting anyway since real players will do that.  The one exception was if I got ahold of the Chaingun.  Strogg in the halls with his chaingun can pulverize the chainsaw-chargers at will.  It's only when a weapon-wielding bot comes into view or you get sawed in the back that it got rough.  I have not tried a multi-class game yet.  The Arena BFG is freaking evil on this map as well, I love watching how it works in those halls!

Regarding the triggered doors auto-closing after a short time, I would add one more to the list, and that's the door to the armor.  I noticed the plats raise back up after a time, if the door closed after a time (so long as no player is standing in the armor spawn area) that would be nifty as well.  Not necessary, but a thought.  As for the rocket door, I'd leave that as-is.  It's adds a neat touch to the map, and not having to run over the plasma rifle to open that door up is actually a welcome improvement over the original.

I've fixed the chainsaw spawn.
The doors did all close after a time (there's no always-open in Q3), but you'd have to wait an hour for them to do so. :]

Right now I have the following timers set for the next version:
- Blue room platforms: 60sec
- Blue room armor door 120sec
- Doors to "secret rooms" (RL, stimpack) 30sec
- Door to outside 60sec
Somehow feels like a nice set-up. No real logic to it, actually, but some variation sounds like a good idea.


I'm glad to hear even the Doom II layout is fun/nostalgic to play! I've played bots for a bit, but only played Doom vs Doom bots. Besides, I can't really test for DM nostalgia myself ... :]

By the way, how are FPS? I want to add some more detail, but I don't really know if I should be worried about r_speeds at this point.

By the way, newer version that Phoenix spoke of, is here: http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/tabd2map01/tabd2map01_beta1.zip
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« Reply #93 on: 2009-08-19, 05:33 »

The lighting is amazing in that version. The proposed timing changes on the doors should be nice.. but those platforms in the blue room, I dunno. I think they need something there to warrant pushing a button to bring them down anyway. Perhaps in one of the other versions.

As for fps, I was over 130 through the whole thing.. except both outdoors areas, which had me at about 100 for some reason. But anyway, I think you're fine in that regard if you want to add more detail.
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« Reply #94 on: 2009-08-19, 16:15 »

I'll have to boot my backup system and test it out on older hardware as well as my newer card.  I didn't notice anything serious that caught my attention right away, but I was paying more attention to gameplay and map details than FPS at the time.  I'll need to test FPS in .99f and the non-pubic beta and get back to you.

Timings sound good.
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« Reply #95 on: 2009-08-19, 21:00 »

Feels nice in my opinion, a bit larger that it should, but in mp i can only compare to the entry variation of it.
And if thats are the original item placement I'll just have to get used to.
No slow downs for me and plays nice as earth too, gives him more bullet base combat, what is appealing to that theme.  Doom - Thumbs Up!
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« Reply #96 on: 2009-08-19, 21:06 »

All i can say is: almost perfect Slipgate - Smile there is only three things that, might need to get fixed but no major things

1. every curved archway has it texture rotated at the wrong direction

2. curves in the ceiling at the corridors, has it textures misaligned

3. i also got strange cracks in the skybox.

oh also feels like an overkill with 2 bfg's btw!, and imo you should make the platform where the bfg, chainsaw n stuff more hard to reach in doom u had to actually spawn there to get the goodies, also plasmagun is to easy to reach since you just can jump up and grab it.

cept that well done! awsome map Slipgate - Smile
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« Reply #97 on: 2009-08-19, 21:20 »

1. I don't know exactly what you mean by "archway", here. I've looked at a few, and they seem fine. Give me a specific example, and I'll take another look.

2. { Edit: actually found a better way to do it, just "Set:" a value, and voila.. looks nicer now. }

3. The platform has been raised, Phoenix brought that one up, too. Plasmagun is supposed to be easier to get -- Doomers are used to this anyway, and jumping changes the game in many more ways than one. Doesn't need a fix.

Remember, this is the "purist" item layout! I assume this version will mostly be used for the pure nostalgia effect (or as close to it as can be got). I might consider changing up geometry for it aswell, but only in a very late stage (too much work to switch back and forth and duplicate changes otherwise).
« Last Edit: 2009-08-19, 21:38 by Tabun » Logged

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« Reply #98 on: 2009-08-19, 21:45 »

god if i only had easy access to somewhere to upload a screenshot id show u what i mean -.- well lets say at the  "doors" in the rooms where the bfg's are if you look closely you see the texture "breaks" oddly and with a thin line at the base of the curve, took a closer look at it wasnt that the texture was rotaded wrong, are you using an endcap curve? or is it even a curve brush? i dont know what it is, it just feels...odd Slipgate - Smile

for the best result when using curves to make round "arches" i use 2 bevel curves and put a simple patch mesh to fill the gap (rember to group the curve brushes)

well was ages since i did the kind of curves you use there i tend to avoid curves as much as possible nowdays since they mostly produce some kind of errors when using them...or cracking -.-
thought since you bend the curve in so many ways there it's hard to avoid. also deteced a skew curve in the corridor if u enter from the "start of the map aka bfg room and look to the left you will notice it.

« Last Edit: 2009-08-19, 21:51 by ReBoOt » Logged
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« Reply #99 on: 2009-08-19, 22:09 »

Hah, I thought you were talking about that skewed patch texture in the corner of the corridor the first time. :] Anyway, I found and fixed the texture alignment problem with the doorways you mentioned.

I'm actually very fond of patches, though I never even group them. The few quake3world mappers I've heard about them seem to swear by them too, so I'm not worried about relying on them.
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