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Author Topic: Offending the Tolerant  (Read 4165 times)
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Phoenix
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« on: 2007-10-26, 08:20 »

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...7/10/24/cstillwell.DTL&type=politics

I must agree with the conclusions of the author of this article, but I would like to add my own $0.02 to this.  I do not understand why it is certain people feel it necessary to rabidly attack Christianity in this way, when Christianity is not oppressing them in any way.  This act of sacrilege shows how intolerant these activists truly are.  Blatant hypocrisy if you ask me.  The Bishop in this matter turned the other cheek, as command by his Lord, and chose the peaceful course even though by Catholic rules he should have denied them Communion.

I know it is not a popular subject among many, but time and time and time again I see Christianity attacked in Western society, and yet, if the reasons for which it's attacked are true, why is there no backlash from Christians?  We tolerate abuse after abuse, insult after insult, and yet the worst you'll get in reply is a strong verbal rebuke, an opinion piece (like what I'm typing here), or maybe a ballot referendum at the next election (isn't that how it's supposed to work if you want a law changed?).  You don't have church leaders calling for anyone's head, or threatening people with physical harm.  People can be locked up for "hate crimes" if the victim is a homosexual or Muslim, Yet, it's OK to invade a religious sanctuary and defile it in this manner?

I know there are kooks on the right, like this nut job who are very sick individuals, but I make absolutely no excuse nor defense for this man or people like him.  He's an intolerant bigot who I hope receives his just deserts some day.  That being said, I really wish that the people demanding tolerance from Christians be tolerant OF Christians, and learn the difference between tolerance of person and tolerance of behavior.  I don't care what someone does in their bedroom.  I do care how someone acts in public toward others.  Invading a church and defiling its sanctuary like this in front of the congregation is about the same to me as a minister popping in your door and preaching to you while you're engaging in private activities.  Why is one act tolerated but the other intolerable?

The tragedy in all of this is offending Christians is really not the problem, in the eyes of the Christian.  We're used to it.  We've been thrown to lions, burned at the stake, tortured, oppressed, crucified - every manner of injustice and harm we've endured, as our Lord endured.  We rarely raise complaint to the outside world of it.  Offending us in the long run isn't going to matter much.  What we worry more about is that people seem to be going out of their way to do things that our God considers offensive.  I know, people who do these things don't believe in our God, but that's what puzzles me most of all.  Why would you go out of your way to do things to offend someone you don't believe in?  Who are you rebelling against here?  And if our God does exist as we believe He does, then don't you know you're playing with fire and we're not the ones you need worry about?  That's what I find most sad in all of this.  We want only what's best for people, we pray for prosperity and good will for all, and only want that everyone can participate in the kingdom yet to come, and not face judgement or wrath.  Is that such a bad thing to want?  Why are we so hated for it?
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Tabun
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« Reply #1 on: 2007-10-26, 10:54 »

I'm not speaking for myself here, but if someone does not believe in God and is being offensive, I assume they're not trying to offend God -- just those who do believe in him. They believe in believers. I'm not sure exactly what drives people to offensive acts, but I've known people to be offended by any number of religious ritual or doctrine or (pun intended) holier-than-thou-attitudes. Some might feel oppressed, some might loathe the idea or restrictions of fearing the gods and get annoyed at people throwing this in their faces. Take, for instance, the last sentences of your post: I know there are those who cannot but read those to say "we know what's good for you, we've got the answers, whatever you thought you knew is nonsense, join us, assimilate, or get lost". There's basically tons of things believers do that might piss off non-believers. It doesn't help, ofcourse, that the radicals (as usual, and on all sides) have all the wrong impressions of the majority of what they've dubbed their "enemy". They hear Dawkins quoting a letter from a Christian ("I get comfort in knowing that the punishment God will bring to you will be 1000 times worse than anything I can inflict. The best part is that you will suffer for eternity for those sins that you are completely ignorant about.") -- and they allow themselves to project this relatively extreme example on all the rest.
Now, I'm obviously not saying any of the above reasons justify any kind of action, ofcourse. But it's just my guess that this is how it works for most people.


Another thing to consider is that relativism and liberal tolerance are not bound to any sort of universal equality and tolerance -- in spite of what you or I might consider sensible. All relativism is ethnocentrism, and all tolerance is intolerance to (that which is incompatible with) intolerance. There's a battle of the ideologies, wherein even the most passive cultural relativist takes a stance where he considers himself to be above all views that his relativism encompasses, embraces. So too, the tolerant are only tolerant to that which takes its subordinate place to the overarching ideology of "being tolerant".
When people have their noses pressed on this fact, responses vary. Commonly heard is the "keep an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out"-ish answer, or other acknowledgment of the above, but there's also straightforward denial or complete disaffirmation of there being any possibility of an ideological problem by some. In any case, I've never really seen anyone, a handful of deep-thinkers aside, worry about formal and logical inconsistency in his/her ideology or even in its ideological policy made explicit.


It's my opinion that people generally take a war-time stance towards this kind of thing. "There's a war on, and we don't have the luxury of questioning ourselves -- the enemy, ever ready to slash our throats, must be crushed before we can do that." So it goes.

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Tabun ?Morituri Nolumus Mori?
Phoenix
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« Reply #2 on: 2007-10-26, 17:05 »

Perhaps that's because there are so many Christians who do not follow Christ's teaching, and those are the most visible?  But that's another problem.  They don't teach about the bible in schools anymore because of the whole "separation of Church and State" thing - despite the historical value of understanding the heritage of western society.  How many people truly know what Christianity is - its history, its theology, it's various doctrines - that are not Christians?  Or perhaps they do teach in universities, but are they teaching it from the point of view of the believer or just saying "they believe this because" and inventing their own speculative reasons or doing so in a light that attempts to discredit the faith?  And if people are indeed ignorant, how then can judgment be passed on us?

Now what you say about "we know what's good for you, we know the answers"... aren't people looking for answers?  Are they not asking questions?  And how many people claim to have answers?  Teachers, politicians, scientists, pundits... many people claim to have answers.  But from the Christian, it's not that we have answers, or that we "know best".  We hope for the best and wish for the best for everyone.  We believe God has provided the answers, and we want to share that because we think it's beneficial to people.  If someone rejects it... that's their choice.  We're not converting anyone at the point of a sword.  Yes, I know, that happened in the past.  It wasn't called the Dark Ages for nothing, but if Christianity understands anything it's forgiveness for past transgressions.  It seems we're the unforgivable ones, when it comes to the world at least, but the first thing a Christian is taught is that nobody is perfect, all have fallen short of the Glory of God, all are sinners, and not to be prideful lest we do exactly the wrong things.  Now if you want to know what Christians would say about people trying to do away with us and wanting us to get lost ourselves, here's what our Lord had to say in John 15:18


Quote
If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before you.  If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.  Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.  But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.

We are told we would be hated, and persecuted.  Is it because we persecute?  I cannot speak for the rest of the world, but who in America is not free to do as they please?  If it be a sin to God, is it the believer that they need to worry about, or God?  If they do it simply to offend believers because they don't like what a Christian might believe, and not because of some personal injury caused by a Christian, then is it not just hatred at that point?  And for what, a difference of opinion?  If I think something is wrong, and I think it is wrong because I believe my God says it is wrong, is it not my right to think as I please?  Is it not my right to say, this is a sin, because I believe it is, because I believe in my God?  That's just being honest.  I do not sell my integrity just to please the ears of the weak minded who cannot tolerate someone thinking differently, but nor do I wake up every day planning on how I can offend the godless, or annoy the atheists, or cause harm to Muslims, or Buddhists.  I don't wish for any one to suffer torments 1,000 fold of anything they could experience on Earth.  I believe in John 3:16:

Quote
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

If people find it offensive being "told what to do", consider the freedom that God allows people.  People are free to choose to murder, and rape, and commit incest, and overeat, and torture and torment other people.  People are also free to love, and uplift, and be compassionate, and to help, and to respect.  Governments outlaw one, and not the other.  Governments punish one, but not the other.  Schools, peers, friends, neighbors, relatives... all manner of human social instruments actively restrict many of these elements, yet God does not prevent them.  That is a frequent argument against God's existence, yet, if it is constraint people complain of, then what do they want then?  It is often that people complain only when God does not help them that they see a reason to dismiss God out of hand, or it is the worst actions of people acting in God's name that cause them to see religion as dangerous.  Who would say that murder, rape, incest, gluttony, torture, and general rudeness are something good or beneficial?  Are they not seen as evils even by the secular?  Certainly there are some behaviors that people will differ over, but if a religion is oppressing anyone right now, it is not Christianity, and it is certainly not the God who gave them life in the first place.

That there is a war on, in the mind of the Christian, is a certainty right now because it seems we are under attack at every turn.  In schools, in the news media... there are Christian missionaries who risk their lives and are captured, tortured, and killed simply for trying to help the downtrodden.  However, we do not fight back with guns and bullets, or swords.  We see the war as spiritual in nature, that it is the minds and souls of people that are being fought for, and that the enemy is supernatural in nature, deceiving and influencing people who are generally unaware of it.  If we fight anything, it is this power, not the people who are influenced by it, and certainly we do not fight to control or coerce people (though I know there are unethical ministers who do just that - and they will be held accountable for it in the end) but to liberate them from these influences.  Christians are not at war with sinners, but with sin.  We too are sinners, after all.  Why would a doctor declare war on his patient?  Does a doctor not heal a lame leg so that one can be free from their injury?  Does a healer not cure pneumonia so a person can be free to breathe?  Christ healed the sick, the lame, and gave sight to the blind, but he also exorcised demons from the possessed.  Now imagine there's someone telling you what to do, controlling your thoughts, and influencing your behavior against what you would rather do, and you're not even consciously aware of the presence of this influence.  Wouldn't you want to do away with that influence, especially if it hated you and was hostile toward everything you love?  That's why we pray for unbelievers and agnostics, and people of other faiths.  It's not that we want to make them do things our way, it's that everyone has the right to choose for themselves and live without these evil influences, and we believe the devil and his servants do everything they can to interfere with people's lives.  If someone thinks they should be free to choose evil, they are free to choose it, but evil has its own consequences.  One cannot do an evil deed without infringing on someone else's freedoms and affecting their lives in a harmful way.  Even if one only harms oneself they still affect the lives of their family, and friends, and all who know them.

As for physical warfare... those who glory in the suffering of another, whatever banner they rally behind, should be opposed, and sometimes there's no other way.  It's a hard thing to know when it is the right thing to do.  Who wants to watch other people suffer in torment and misery?  Shouldn't outrage at such things spur people to action against such evils?  Sometimes the wrong choices are made from good intentions, but I would at least rather know one has good intentions.  Bad intentions always make the wrong choices and always seek to cause harm by their very nature.  I for one do not like war, but I like seeing people freed from oppression, and I like seeing the oppressors taken down not because I glory in death, but because removing oppression removes an obstacle to life and freedom.  I would prefer man never go to war, but as long as humans seek to control other humans, war is inevitable and must be seen as a reality of human existence.  I've found in human history more often than not that the opposite of war is not peace, but rather slavery.  I hate war, but I could never condone slavery for peace's sake, and thus I will prefer war to the enslavement of a people every time.

There's another kind of war the Christian fights against evil influences that's less spoken of outside of Christian teaching, and it is a personal war.  We are charged to constantly question ourselves, and our motives.  Are we acting because we want to serve God, and do good, and help people, or are we acting for selfish gain?  Are we doing what is right for the family, and children, and the community?  Do our actions help or harm God's Creation?  Are we living in a holy manner or giving in to the temptations of sin?  Are we being hypocritical?  Are we keeping our own weaknesses in context and relying on the Lord to strengthen us where we know we are weak?  Are we living lives that reflect Christ's example of mercy and love?  Are we compassionate and charitable?  Are we able to forgive others, and ourselves, for our shortcomings and imperfections?  Are we loving, faithful, dedicated and attentive to our mates?  To the Christian, questioning one's self is not a luxury - it is a necessity.  Self-examination and an ongoing, honest self-assessment is a requirement of being a Christian.  When you have Christians, especially clergy, who are hypocrites the world sees it and takes instant notice.  Remember the pedophile priests?  How much damage to the church's credibility did that cause, and why?  People expect better of priests, and if the world expects better, then how much more the believer, and if the believer, how much more God?  So we, as disciples of Christ, are called to a higher standard for ourselves, not because we are to look down upon others, but because as servants of Christ we are to avoid sin and do no evil to any creature.  If we are thus representatives of the Savior, we must be on our best behavior, or who will believe us?  This internal war is ongoing until we die, so it is never a matter of choosing the "easy" path, or going with the crowd.  I know personally the difficulty of this struggle, of how inviting and pleasant evil thoughts can seem, and how powerful the desire to harm another creature - especially one that has wronged you - can be.  Who hasn't fought back the urge to do something they know is wrong at some point in their life?  Who hasn't felt like dirt when they've given in?  It may be easy to explain it away, or rationalize one's way out of it, but the Christian has to face their guilt head on and not make excuses.  How many of us actually do that... well none of us have room to boast.  We try our best, that's all anyone can ever do.

I've heard the arguments of a lot of people about the Crusades, or the dark spots on Christian history, and "not wanting it shoved in their faces", judging us based on the radical nut jobs, etc.  Life does not guarantee you will not be offended at some point by some thing.  Say someone is racially intolerant.  Do they have a right to not ever have to see someone of a different race?  There's a difference between not liking something and living with it, and not liking something and trying to do away with it.  It just seems people are really trying to do away with Christianity, and in lieu of that, doing everything they can to cause us grief.  I thought coexistence was supposed to be the goal of tolerance.  Perhaps what you say about the ideological problem is true.  Perhaps cries for tolerance are actually veiling a deeper desire for abolishment?  If that's the case, and people want a world without God, that's exactly what they will get in the end and I think when all is said and done it will fall very short of their expectations.  I will only be sad that they will find that it's not really what they thought they wanted once they have it, and that it will not bring them the peace, and joy, and happiness that we wish for everyone.
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