Chilvence
Ogre
Posts: 55
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Hello all I didn't really want to make a new thread about this, since it's not really my place to say, but its been niggling at me for a while. Gorgeous as the barrett sniper model is, it always seemed to me to be out of place in the line-up of earth weapons. All the others are either WW2 relics, or fantasy creations. So I just thought I'd ask, why go with the modern look, rather than an old WW2 era rifle? It would seem to make a lot more sense to me, not just because of the Wolfenstien heritage angle; they would also visually imply the fact that the earth sniper is not a perfect, purpose built precision sniper weapon. It feels like a basic rifle, acts like a basic rifle - it could be any type of rifle at all really. So, what's the general consensus? I picked out five likely candidates just to give a visual: UK: http://world.guns.ru/rifle/rfl04-e.htmUS: http://world.guns.ru/rifle/rfl20-e.htm http://world.guns.ru/rifle/rfl07-e.htm http://world.guns.ru/rifle/rfl05-e.htmGermany: http://world.guns.ru/rifle/rfl02-e.htm |
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Phoenix
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Dammit I wish LeeMon had finished that story, it would clear everything up! Oh well, I'll have to paraphrase a quick history of how BJ aka Sarge aka Blaze ended up in the Arenas (and invent some details myself since I don't remember everything verbatim).
Blaze and Mynx (contemporary and competitor of Blaze) were both exposed to a serum that was part of the Nazis' secret experiments being conducted by Dr. Schabbs during an altercation where both attempted to steal the self-same serum. The prototype serum they were exposed to was not the one that raised the zombies, but rather, was a result of that research. The serum granted biological near-immortality by almost completely eliminating aging, increased physical resilience, and vastly accelerated healing. The Nazis intended on using the serum to create supersoldiers, as well as grant immortality to the Nazi party leadership.
What the serum could not do was prevent physical death from severe trauma. However, Blaze was able to survive not only WWII, but countless other conflicts while his aging was greatly decelerated. The partial exposure to the serum was not enough to make Blaze immortal, but enough to make him age very slowly. Blaze, a soldier's soldier at heart, insisted with the OAS and later CIA that he be allowed to remain a covert operative for God and country. Anywhere there was a tough mission requiring extraordinary discipline, guts, and experience, "Sarge" as he'd now simply be called (despite his actual officer's rank of Colonel) would be the soldier of choice. Fast forward and unspecified amount of time past today. Sarge fights a delaying action for a squad of Marines on their way to an extraction point after a hostage rescue mission against a band of militant separatists. One corporal wants to stay and fight. Sarge orders this marine to get moving and "get the hell out of here, NOW!" Using a rotary-barreled plasma pulse rifle, he single-handedly holds off the rebels long enough for the marines to extract. With an empty fuel cell and rockets blasting his way, he considers his options... Try to evac and hold up the extraction, jeopardizing the mission and his comrades, or sacrifice himself to buy them some time. The choice is clear. He spits out his cigar, throws down his rifle, rips out a war cry and charges the advancing soldiers, leaping into them. In a melee their mini rocket-launchers would be useless, so maybe he could go down in a blaze of glory and keep them distracted long enough to secure the rescue team's escape. A bold plan, but one soldier has enough sense to raise his weapon and fire at Sarge before he can pile into them. The Vadrigar, who have been watching Sarge ever since his action in World War II, decide it's time. A millisecond before the rocket would turn Sarge inside-out, he is pulled through time and space to the Arenas Eternal. Corporal Flynn Tagart, aka Doom, orders the rescue pilot to return to base with the hostages as he was instructed, leaving his former commanding officer on the mission behind. To those who were under his command on the last mission, Sarge's status is listed as MIA, assumed KIA. A military funeral with full honors is held. His official status is what it always was. He never existed.
Mynx's story was never touched on, but her trade of assassination mixed with adult entertainment (a skill helpful for any female assassin), combined with her longevity, meant she was likely to suffer a similar demise through accidental or intentional injury. Being Sarge's rival and exposure to the same serum, the Vadrigar also followed her career with keen interest. Her moment came as well, and she too was claimed to the Arenas Eternal.
Sarge and Mynx both began their careers during the second world war, but they lived up shortly before the Hell invasion of the moon bases on Phobos and Deimos. This means their exposure to weaponry included modern arms as well as armaments invented after today but prior to the UAC's gate research on Mars, Phobos, and Deimos. When the factions in the Arenas Eternal split, Blaze was the first gladiator to throw down his weapon in protest over the conditions in the Arena. This resulted in warriors from other eras quickly following suit. Blaze knew what weapons he was best with, and that's what he wanted to use. Of course, wielding gatling guns is one thing, but Sarge also knew he needed something to counter the long-distance power of the railgun. A normal battle rifle from the WWII era was not powerful enough. The armor of the gladiators was too strong for a one-shot kill with a Mauser or an M1-Garand, and the way the Arena Gladiators handled damage, it didn't matter if you shot someone in the face or in the toe - damage was damage and armor protected the whole. That part of the game they were not going to change. A .50 caliber, armor-piercing round would be the proper choice to drill into an opponent. The best rifle for the job would be the semi-automatic Barrett .50 caliber. Blaze had used this rifle during the Gulf War as part of a covert ops sniper team taking out high-profile targets prior to air strikes. In addition, Blaze preferred the portable field mortar, which was developed late in the 21st century, to a standard rocket launcher. High recoil did not bother Blaze one bit, and in his own words, it "splatters cowardly, camping maggots in hard to reach places". For closeup work he chose the portable napalm launcher, which was introduced into combat shortly before the mortar following a return to the "scorched earth" policy of combat.
So there you have an idea why a Barrett .50 caliber was chosen, according to the Generations story arc. Now, as to why the Lords of the Arena (myself, Tabun, LeeMon, etc) went with the Barrett is as follows:
1) It's not a bolt-action rifle. EVERYONE uses a bolt-action rifle for a sniper rifle. We did not want just another Counter-Strike AWP. We wanted something that stood out.
2) At the time we did not know what we would be doing with weapon animations, nor how they would work, or even IF they could work, nor did we have a designated animator. If we were forced to use Q3-style recoils, a semi-auto rifle reloads easily offscreen.
3) Generations is a fast-action game, not a camp-and-snipe game. The animation of a bolt-action sniper rifle would not only be technically difficult to do, but also a visual distraction. It also would greatly limit any possibility of altering the rifle's firing rate to balance out refire timings later. I did not want a reload animation dictating the refire time of the rifle, rather, I wanted it to be the other way around.
4) Visually the Barrett has the all-metal, "no bullshit" look of a lot of WWII German-era weapons. I personally did NOT want a rifle with a wooden stock on it for the Earth Soldiers.
5) The weapon is visually unique, easy to see, and BIG. You know when someone has it out. Since none of the Earth weapons glow, unlike the railguns of the other classes, making the gun visually a very large, loud weapon makes it stand out more in close combat.
6) A railgun fires a depleted uranium slug at near relativistic speeds. What the hell kind of rifle could match that kind of firepower? A .50 caliber was the natural choice as, short of a 20mm anti-tank gun (which cannot be shouldered and is about 8 feet long), it's the most powerful rifle cartridge that can be used in a semi-automatic, man-portable weapon.
So that's why we went with the Barrett as opposed to a WWII-era gun. The Earth Soldiers are not just WWII, they're "pre-Doom". That also let us get away with the heavy armor plating for Sarge, seeing that in Wolfenstein you had no armor and only 99 bullets!
And... no, we're not changing it, especially after I typed all that explanation. Hope that clears things up. 
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Woodsman
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i still say there should be no scope if you cant use it.
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Tabun
Pixel Procrastinator
Team Member
Elite (3k+)
   
Posts: 3330
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The scope is actually rather important (whether you can use it or no): it is the sign for all newbies and non-gun-nuts out there that it's a "railgun-type" weapon.
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| Tabun |
?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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Phoenix
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Not only that, who says you'll never be able to use it? I might code in a "scope view" effect and reticle for Earth Soldiers at some point. I'm just busy with other things and am not going to commit to something like that when I've got too much other work to do. It's one of those "yeah, that might be cool" things that get done in between major functional changes. 
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Chilvence
Ogre
Posts: 55
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Actually, the fact that the barrett is not a bolt action rifle is the reason I included the johnson semi-auto, even though it apparently wasn't used as much - http://world.guns.ru/rifle/rfl20-e.htmI'm not personally a gun nut - I only did some quick poking around on wikipedia to find these weapons. I am just noting the aesthetic difference between an mp40 and a modern sniper weapon. I can let the same difference slide for the mortar weapon, because as far as I know, the gen team made it from scratch. However, the barrett is much more well known, because it was on full page ads for delta force or something like that, and it screams 'modern warfare sim' to me for that reason. Wolfenstein isn't Rogue Spear or Splinter Cell, it's the nazi shooting game! Neither doesn Generations or any other id style game have any obligation to be realistic, or even logical for that matter. They are all about the theme  Whatever the case, it won't make me enjoy gen any less that I do. I was just hoping I might be able to sway the opinion a little bit towards my own, but its clear that that isn't going to happen. |
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Phoenix
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I do understand, but I've not really played any modern warfare sims so I have no idea what weapons are in Rogue Spear or Splinter Cell, etc. I decided to include the Barrett well before it was a well-known weapon in video games (or well-known to me at least). Think of it as Sarge's one and only "modern" weapon. That puts his equipment list like this:
Weapons:
Knife, Luger, MP-40, Gatling Guns, Hand Grenades - WWII era
Barrett M82-A1 - Modern Era
Mortar, Napalm Launcher - Post-modern, pre-Doom
His other items run the spectrum too, from religious relics to Nazi helmets, turkey dinners, etc. The dogfood was a decision by the Arena Masters I think... I doubt Sarge would choose that himself... but you never know, maybe he liked the stuff? 
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Tabun
Pixel Procrastinator
Team Member
Elite (3k+)
Posts: 3330
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There was plenty of dog food in Wolf3D, so I guess Sarge did develop some kind of taste for it from the many times it saved his life in his most dire need, perhaps?
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« Last Edit: 2008-02-15, 00:39 by Tabun »
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| Tabun |
?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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bengreenwood
Ogre
Posts: 53
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I don't mean to be annoying here but I actually think Chilvence has got a bit of a point. Some of those WW2-era rifles are really cool. I actually thought of the Garant as soon as I read the opening paragraph. And it would be original, too. A lot of mods/ games have sniper rifles with scopes but not as many have that kind of old school, scope-less rifle. Also I think it would draw more of a distinction between the player classes, which is always good. It wouldn't look that out of place for the Doom Warriors or Arena Gladiators to wield the Barrett, really. Also, reloading bolt-action style between shots would look really cool. Look at this video after 0.35 to see what I mean: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqbASaI1x4IAnyway like I said I don't mean to be annoying, and like Chilvence said, Generations is still awesome either way. I just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in there. |
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ReBoOt
Mean ol Swede
Team Member
Elite
Posts: 1294
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Well i should team up with my teammates regarding this however, if there is a weapon that i feel is abit out of place its the earth sniper, id rather have some ol kind of sniper-ish gun, but still the current gun we have works.
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Thomas Mink
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Due to this thread, really thinking about the sniper rifle leads to other questions...
Like: Why do Earthers use a Luger? Given the described time frame, there are much better options available to them.
In the end tho, I feel Earth weapons are fine. This is something I never think of when playing. Well, I haven't in the past.. so I don't see why I would start now.
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Kain-Xavier
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I don't have a preference as far as visuals go, but I quite like how the sniper rifle currently functions. I also think it's too late in the development of the mod to make such a drastic change. Going with a bolt-action sniper rifle means Phoenix has to model it, Tabun has to skin it, the both of them have to animate it, the weapon's behavior may have to change, and then the whole team has to test it to make sure it looks proper and plays nicely with the other weapons.
Woodsman: The laser-sight on the gatling gun is just as trivial really.
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« Last Edit: 2008-02-15, 10:14 by Kain-Xavier »
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bengreenwood
Ogre
Posts: 53
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Thomas the Earthers use the Luger because it's from Wolfenstein 3D. I think the idea is to keep as much of the 'feel' of the old games as possible. Also it's a bloody cool weapon to fire, too.
Kain, yeah, I understand. Personally I was thinking of this more as something that might be done in the future, but it's not critical, because it would obviously take a massive amount of work. And again, there's nothing wrong with the Barrett- in fact it's a great weapon to use itself, it's just that I think a bolt action rifle would be even cooler.
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Chilvence
Ogre
Posts: 55
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Ouch, there goes everyone else thinking if it's an old rifle, it has to be a bolt action manual reload - there were actually two US weapons that were (semi)automatic, the Garand and the Johnson. I specifically pointed these two out in my first post, because I knew that the slow reload of a hand operated rifle would be pointed out almost immediately. I like games like Hidden and Dangerous and to a lesser extent Medal of Honour, and in both of those the M1 Garand is extremely fast, comparable to a pistol in rate of fire. This gives you the excuse to make an alternative sort of sniper weapon, one that has drawbacks penetrating the tough arena armour as Phoenix pointed out, but makes up for it by being the fastest of the 'rifle' weapons. The johnson rifle I haven't seen in any game at all, which makes it something that could be unique to gen. Apparently it was a competing semi-auto at the time, but lost favour due to issues with the bayonet attachment affecting accuracy, and small parts getting lost frequently when the weapon was taken apart in the field. It does look quite cool though IMO |
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Phoenix
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Personally I think the Johnson looks like a pregnant whale, but that's just me.  I also think it's too late in the development of the mod to make such a drastic change. That's a big part of it. The rifle is already established through several betas, already animated and completed or 1.0. We really, really need to concentrate on other parts of the game at this point besides weapons.the M1 Garand is extremely fast, comparable to a pistol in rate of fire. This gives you the excuse to make an alternative sort of sniper weapon, one that has drawbacks penetrating the tough arena armour as Phoenix pointed out, but makes up for it by being the fastest of the 'rifle' weapons. This is another reason I went with the .50 cal. It's got a vicious recoil which makes followup shots harder. To describe a few differences between the in-game weapon and the real world weapon:
Reload time
Real World: Barrett can fire about as fast as you can pull the trigger, accuracy not withstanding.
Gen: Barret's refire time is limited by game mechanics for gameplay balance and perceived recoil (so long as you don't turn off view kicks) to refire an accurate shot.
Ammo Capacity
Real World: Rifle holds 10 rounds in a detachable magazine which must be replaced before firing again.
Gen: Rifle can hold 100 bullets and never needs manual reloading. Arena Masters have some limits on their patience and manual reloading (other than Doom's double barrel) is not a high priority for them.
Projectile Velocity
Real World: Muzzle velocity is 2801.8 feet per second.
Generations: Muzzle velocity is 1250 feet per second. This is so the bullet's drop and trajectory can be a gameplay factor.
Ballistics
Real World: Bullet trajectories are influenced not just by gravity, but also by air resistance and wind and spin stabilization. Bullet loses velocity over time, causing the trajectory to be initially flat, then fall off more rapidly with distance and deviate more from center over distance.
Gen: Bullet flies in a perfect parabolic arc and only drops with gravity.
Penetration
Real World: A .50 caliber AP round would punch clean through a person, armor or not, and depending on where it hit the person would either eviscerate them, remove a limb, explode the skull, or just generally spork up wherever it hits. Hitting a solid surface it would drill into it.
Gen: Bullet stops in whatever it hits if it hits something that can be damaged. Bullet reflects off hard surfaces at a wild angle.
So we've taken a lot of liberties with the gun. Now... as far as something like a Garand or other common semi-auto rifle, that would drastically change the game's balance. Consider a 50 point damage rifle that fires four times as fast as a railgun. The railgunner has one shot to make 100 points of damage, all or nothing. That 50 point gun gives the attacking player a huge speed advantage because they can make followup shots and actually use the rifle for suppressing fire - a role not intended for a railgun-like weapon. That's what machineguns are for. Even if an armor penalty is thrown in against the rifle, that does not help balance because unarmored targets - like freshly spawned players - will have no protection. A few steps out in the open and they're dead. This would be a camper's dream.
I'll give you a comparable scenario from another game. I don't know how it is now weapon-wise, but in Counter-Strike up to version 6 (when I was still playing the mod) there were two and eventually three sniper rifles - the AWP, the G3, and the Scout. I did not use the scout as I did not like it with my ping. The AWP was like a railgun. It was a one-shot kill weapon, with a high refire penalty. The G3, on the other hand, was a 2-3 shot kill weapon, with a fast refire and very low kickback. This was my preferred weapon for sniping and I was absolutely devastating with it. In CS_Militia, if I got enough money for a G3 and the idiots on my team properly guarded the sewer, you did NOT get past me charging in the front way. I'd perch on the roof and kill anything crossing the open, including opposing snipers trying to hit me with the AWP. There are a few regulars in the chat room that still play CS. The G3, in current circles, is considered a no-no weapon because it's TOO effective. It's considered a "no-skill" gun now, something I find ironic considering that CS is a tactical shooter and not like Quake.
In the real world, yes, the M1-Garand and other semi-auto battle rifles are effective and formidible. The semi-automatic nature of the Garand gave US Army and Marines a significant firepower advantage over German soldiers who were typically armed with bolt-action Mausers. Actually I'm surprised that nobody's suggested the M14-A1 Designated Marksman Rifle configuration that mounts a scope on an M-14 and basically turns an M1-Garand into the equivalent of a Soviet SVD.
Anyway, enough comparisons on my end, however fun they might be. The Barrett is staying. We're pretty much committed at this point.
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bengreenwood
Ogre
Posts: 53
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Actually Chilvence I knew there are plenty of old semi-auto rifles, that's why I mentioned the Garand. I only mentioned bolt action because I just think it looks and sounds really cool. I think it's part of the experience of firing a gun to have some kind of "kuh chuk chunk!" action between shots, like in that video. I was going to mention that you could have some kind of multiple shot and then reload thing but as Phoenix pointed out, Quake 3 doesn't do reloading basically.
Ultimately I don't think realism really matters that much- as long as it's appropriate, and feels like a proper gun. The most important thing is to have something that's fun to shoot.
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Chilvence
Ogre
Posts: 55
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Actually, I'm not a huge fan of the scope, if only because you can zoom with any of the weapons in Quake 3 in the first place. It seems a bit redundant... I'm happy if you want to stick with the decision to mix in modern weapons, if that is truly how you want it to be. I hope you won't end the discussion though, It is quite interesting. I do find the WW2 era interesting in general, which is really the main reason I don't care for the mixing and the backstory behind Gen's earth class. I can agree with you that a repeating 50 damage rifle would be a balance upsetting thing, but it wouldn't have to be done that way - look at all the rules you are bending for the barrett itself . It also occurs to me that aside from the Arena Gladiators and the Strogg (which share the railgun), none of the other original games had any kind of sniper weapon at all. I can see where the need to expand on the Wolf arsenal comes in obviously, I just feel it might have been done many different ways. One one side, you could have gone with the simple progression of bigger faster german guns that is in the original game - so you could go from luger -> Gewehr 43 -> mp40 -> Sturmgewehr 44 -> Single Gat -> etc On the other, you could have adapted guns from RTCW, which would have brought in the tesla cannon, tying the earth class with the slipgaters and gladiators to a degree. My personal opinion deviates from both of those ideas though. I think there is a very rich legacy left behind by WW2, with many nostalgic things to draw from. Eg If you want the all metal no bullshit oversized look from the classic era, look no further than this and this and this and tell me that isn't completely nuts |
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« Last Edit: 2008-02-15, 17:30 by Chilvence »
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Phoenix
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Feel free to discuss as desired. There's been far too little discussion on these boards of late! As long as nothing turns into a flamewar I have no problem.
Setting the "way back machine" to .99a and before.... Indeed, even the Wolf class in Generations for Quake 2 had no long-range gun (I was not affiliated with the project, though we did obviously draw from it conceptually for Gen Arena). The sniper rifle was strictly something we added to offset the fact that two classes had long-range, 100 point damage guns. In GenQ2, only the Q2 grunt had a railgun. Q3 added an entirely new class into the mix that also had a railgun. The gameplay in Q3, as well as the maps, emphasize the use of the railgun to a large degree, much more than in Quake 2. This would leave the Gen Q3 Wolf class with a problem - all his weapons relied on the same ammo except the flamethrower and (at the time) bazooka. Except the bazooka, Wolfy would be stuck with a lot of armor, a slow movement rate, and no way to deal with railgunners. Four of Wolf's weapons are hitscan and really only useful at close range, the flamethrower is only useful at close range, and the bazooka, unless sped up past Quake rocket speed, would not be useful at long range. So how could this class avoid being sniped to death? Overpowering the bazooka would make him too Quake-ish - why would anyone use the bullet weapons? Speed up the player? If he runs fast then he's just like the other classes but with tougher armor, so you get a fast tank instead of a slow tank. Doom at least has crap armor to offset his speed, making Earth fast with heavy armor would be bad, but weakening the armor made him like all the other classes. Adding a sniper rifle in would be an easy fix without destroying the slow, tank-armored class concept, but did we really want another railgun? So we opted to go with a ballistic projectile that dropped over distance instead. Lee and I discussed the idea for a while, and when I suggested the ballistic drop and a rebounding projectile he liked it. Then we decided on what kind of gun model to use. The Barrett was agreed upon pretty quickly for all the reasons I've already mentioned.
Now, as for the other two classes that do not have railguns, here's why it doesn't seem to be much of a concern to them. The speed of Doom and his ability to saturate an area with firepower quickly more than makes up for any long-range deficiency. In addition, Doom has the ability to snipe with his chaingun if you feather the trigger. It's not a one-shot kill like the railgun, but you can chew someone up pretty good at long range and use it for suppressing fire while closing in. Doom's speed and close-range power are his primary strength. He simply doesn't NEED a long range weapon. Slipgate's rocket launcher is a beast at any range. Wolfy was facing a problem of being both the slowest class AND not having any long-range capability. Armor is great, if you have it, but it takes a while for him to get it. Giving him a long-range rifle was the sensible thing to do. We further evolved the class by replacing the old generic Bazooka from GenQ2, which was "just-another-rocket-launcher", with a more unique weapon. I came up with the mortar idea as a combination of a rocket and grenade launcher. Flies fast and blows up on contact like a rocket, drops with gravity like a grenade. It would have to fly fast to be useful, so to offset the longer range of the weapon and fast projectile speed, I decided to make the splash area wide, but much less damaging than the other weapons. Again, we went with the all-metal look to keep the weapons unified in appearance. I designed the gun loosely around the M32 grenade launcher, but only in the sense that it's a drum-fed weapon. The overall design I pretty much cooked up myself.
Regarding the scope on the rifle... actually, zooming with the M82 in 1.0 will behave differently from .99f. I don't want to go into too much detail and spoil, but let's just say that it will make zooming with the rifle confer a bit of advantage over firing the gun unzoomed (beyond the simple fact of zooming that is) without altering the gun's mechanics or damage at all.
I've seen all those guns before. The Boys is monstrous and ungainly, and the Sturmgewehr is an assault rifle, not a sniper weapon. Anti-tank guns are TOO big. That was another concern - whatever weapon was chosen would have to be able to fit the Q3 player model "stand with weapon" stance to a reasonable degree and look balanced on the player while being a large weapon. The Barrett, aside from some minor clipping in the stock (unavoidable with a lot of guns it seems) fits the default Q3 "hold weapon" hand placement quite well, and looks balanced on the player while being a massive gun at the same time.
Drawing from RTCW was definitely out for us, the same as drawing from Doom 3 and Quake 4. It would break concept with the fact that these are the CLASSIC Id games we wanted to put head to head against each other. We did take a lot of liberties with Wolfenstein to invent the Earth Soldiers class, but RTCW deviated heavily from the original Wolfenstein-3D as well, too far in fact. We wanted to base Earth around the original Wolfenstein weapons and have some fun with the class and bring it more up to date, adding some new toys to play with like the Mortar, Rifle, and Napalm Launcher while keeping the classic guns as well. I know there will never be complete agreement on how things could be done, but that's all part of design work. I still scratch my head over how we have "Poor" votes on the Slipgate weapon models on the image gallery, especially considering what the originals looked like in Quake, but that's just the nature of people to be opinionated. What I think looks great someone else might hate, and vice-versa. It's just something we have to live with as designers.
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Phoenix
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Oh, just found this on YouTube. Looks like the .50 ricochet is a real thing after all. Look at the ground ahead and to the guy's left, right above where the red "Unregistered version" text fades in. The round hits the ground first on the way back, then bounces up and hits him in the side of the head. Double-ricochet. I'd say if it hadn't hit the ground first he'd be pretty hurt!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ABGIJwiG...ww.digg.com/lbv.php?id=2366304&ord=1
I suppose you really SHOULD watch where you point your big gun.
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bengreenwood
Ogre
Posts: 53
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Could be faked but still, it's funny all the same. : D
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