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Author Topic: Gen CTF Game Planned  (Read 67227 times)
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Phoenix
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« Reply #20 on: 2008-08-17, 05:20 »

No worries.  You railed me a bunch of times, and you did well by your team.  I was reminded how woefully out of practice I am.  As long as everyone had a good time, that's what matters.  Thanks to all who played!  Doom - Thumbs Up!
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« Reply #21 on: 2008-08-17, 06:20 »

Seems everyone is out of practice, myself included... well... everybody except Shambler  Slipgate - Shifty
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MarneGator
 

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« Reply #22 on: 2008-08-17, 14:00 »

That was a blast!  And my first populated game of Gen on the 'net!  Hope we can all do this again soon.
Yeah, Shambler was clearly a little more competent than the rest of us Slipgate - Smile
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« Reply #23 on: 2008-08-17, 15:11 »

No worries.  You railed me a bunch of times, and you did well by your team. 

I figure that in CTF it's defense, not camping. Hehehe. Slipgate - Wink
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fourier
 
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« Reply #24 on: 2008-08-17, 15:32 »

Very good games last night.  I think you did well, vamp, and you also helped balance the teams.  Marne played some good D, especially on the map we lost on when I was earth.  I just could not get in and out fast enough with the flag, which is very different compared to arena or slipgate (or doom, I guess).  I don't think I'm very good with doom.  I don't know the projectile speeds well enough to place them (unless I'm very close), they do seem slower than the rest.

I think I mentioned to Phoenix that tricking has some practical applications in real games, so it can be very beneficial to learn it.  If anyone wants to better hone their strafing or anything else, just ask.  I don't play often, but I like teaching people how to strafe (or strafe better), rj, and plasma.

Also, I just wanted to add that I think I've decided to retract my statement about q1's physics.  I don't think it's identical, but it definitely does accel.  I made the comment last night that I think it felt slower when you use random just because all of the other classes have a very different movement, but once you play slippy for a few spawns, especially running the flag, you get back into the groove of it.

I think shamblers will be my permanent generations name Slipgate - Smile
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Phoenix
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« Reply #25 on: 2008-08-18, 16:55 »

Vamp:  CTF rules are far different from FFA.  All the normal etiquette about camping, spawnkilling, hogging powerups, etc, go out the window.  In CTF you're expected to defend the flag, and if planting yourself in on a perch and railing the other team repeatedly works, then by all means that's what you do!  It's all about doing your part for the team as best as you can.

Four:  You may not know Doom but you're lethal with the chaingun as demonstrated on the last map we played.  Technically right now the chaingun is overpowered damage-wise, but you and Tabun are the only players that can give me grief like that with the Doomer.  I think if you'd really appreciate the class if you learned his other weapons besides the hitscan guns.  As for projectile speeds, Doom's rockets fly at about 75% the speed of Arena's.  They are the second-slowest missiles, with Strogg's being the slowest, though they pack a punch for damage.  His plasma is also about half the speed of Arena's, being more suited to saturating a player at close to medium range than pinpoint precision shooting, but it's very effective if you can corner the other player owing to its decent damage and fast firing rate.

I was hoping I would be a good balance against you, but it seems my playing ability has faded a great deal from what it used to be, even with the Doomer.  Maybe if you and I both play as Earth and park on our respective flags?  The only maps that I think we really did well against your side was on Polaris, only because I know that map extremely well and outran your team, and Twisted Base.

That being said, here's a little bit of strategic analysis from past CTF games as far as class role.

Doom - Excellent offensive class due to speed and firepower.  Best class for flag running and retrieval of stolen flags.  Can help with immediate base defense but his weaker armor requires him to keep on the move.

Slipgate - Excellent escort class due to speed and firepower.  His rocket knockback can throw off pursuers or pin them in corners, allowing the flag runner to escape.  Can take over well if the flag runner is killed.  Also makes a good offensive class.

Arena - All-around.  Arena's "middle of the road" weapons loadout and movement speed makes him a good stand-in for any role.

Strogg - Sniper/Forward Defense.  Strogg's strengths are the railgun and chaingun.  He works best to soften up incoming flag runners and assist the flag defender when needed, or weaken outgoing flag runners.  His specialized weapons and overall lack of firepower make him difficult to use for a flag runner.

Earth - Base defense.  Earth's slow speed makes him best to tank up on armor and ammo and not let anyone near the flag.  While other players attack incoming flag runners, Earth's dual gatling guns can pulverize them the rest of the way.  As a last resort, the napalm launcher can be used to set a flag runner on fire or a mortar shell or rifle round can provide a parting shot, but flag retrieval should be left to the faster classes.  Earth is better suited rearming and preparing for the next flag attempt.

You may have noticed that on the map with the bridge over the water where you played as Earth that you gave me the most trouble when you stayed in the flag room and gatted, and had the least success when you charged our base.  Earth just cannot move fast enough to get away from the firepower of the faster classes.  He does best letting the fight come to him and taking enemies head-on or flanking them.  The Egyptian-themed map I wanted to use Earth as a base defense, but it's a very hard map to defend effectively.  Several times I'd have you chewed way down with the gatling guns only to have you strafe-jump out before I could finish you off.  You really need two defenders on that map since the items are so spread out.  A better map to show off Earth as a defender is Dueling Keeps.  It is extremely hard to run the flag if you have a good Earther set up on defense on that map.  I've shut out the other team that way.  Another is Heat.  ConfusedUs played an impenetrable defense on that map.  We were using CTF runes and he got a hold of the Power Amplifier.  Con doesn't play any more but he was about the best at using the Earth Soldier when he still played, and put up the hardest defense of any other player that I know.
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fourier
 
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« Reply #26 on: 2008-08-18, 19:27 »

Yeah, I'm aware that Earth is better suited to defense, but on the map with the bridge over the water you guys had already started running the flag while I was talking about switching classes.  By that time, I needed to play O.  If we are already down, it would be unlikely that we would cap.  I could have played D and kept it 1 to 0, but in those situations I'm more of the "no guts no glory" mindset.

If I play seriously with real CTF players in Q3 then my best position is defense, that's why I wanted to play O as much as possible.  If I play defense it is very unlikely there will be any caps against us, but then I have to depend on my offensive players being able to penetrate the defense of the enemy.  Aside from that, offense is more "fun", and since it's just a friendly game, I might as well do what I feel like instead of play seriously and strategically.  I never play "real" ctf unless it's a scrim or other type of important match -- and I've played one of those in the past year, so I don't do it often.  I just like to have a good time.

Also, arena is technically faster than slippy in flat out speed, but slippy's maneuverability is what gives him that edge on confined maps.  I forget the name of the map, but it's one of the original q3 3wave maps.  w2 is courtyard conundrum, and I think w1 is the one with the large fog pit; I'm guessing it's w3.  Anyway, I ran in, got the flag and outran you both not because of sheer speed, but because I could quickly turn around those corners without losing momentum.

Doom is fast, but I actually caught up to Marne's doom strafing with arena strafing.  Obviously, a single individual will strafe faster with doom compared to his or her own capabilities with arena.

Earth I just can't figure out, though.  I don't know what to do with him.  I like that he has some of the better spawn loadouts (arena also spawning with a machinegun), which helps protect from being run over after spawning.  I do have to generally agree with you about him.  Defense is almost certainly his best location.  The only other place I think he would do well is mid (which at times can be similar to mid fielders in soccer, but mostly is a mid defense type position).

Typically, the positions in serious CTF matches are as follows: D, High D, Mid, Offense.  It's been years since I played like that, but it was not to be taken lightly in pickups, scrims, and especially when ringing for a clan in an actual match.  You had to have plenty of binds, and especially on defense for notifying others if you were near death or respawned well out of position so they can pull back until you are back and well equipped to deal with incoming enemies.  Honestly, I don't care that much about quake anymore, lol.  I just enjoy having a good time  Slipgate - Thumbs up!  The only time I fall back to defense and hold it is when I know teams are heavily stacked against me.

Other than that, I like doom's plasma gun and the combat shotgun doesn't seem too bad.  I just don't think that map was any good for using the plasma, and you know what I'm capable of with hitscans (even when they aren't unlagged Slipgate - Wink ).  Although, in clan arena (RA3), I use just about everything, but lean heavily to rockets.  I really would love to show you how I play in there, hehe.  If you think I'm tough in generations, you ain't seen nothing yet.  The last time I played, though, I was missing way too much for what I usually do in unlagged.

All-in-all generations is still a very fun mod, so tweak when necessary or for the "balanced" mode.
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MarneGator
 

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« Reply #27 on: 2008-08-18, 20:18 »

Ahh...this seems like the time to ask!  The talk on Slippy's movement brought to mind his speed.  Just how do you effectively move around with him?  I figured out some of his air control, but I haven't figured out how to get any type of straight-line speed from him.  I was never in on the QW scene, so I have not even the most remote of knowledge of how he moves about... providing for the differences between Gen and the real deal.
Oh, and fourier, I'm not sure what you're referencing with the Arena/Doom strafes; I played as Arena the whole time on Saturday.
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fourier
 
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« Reply #28 on: 2008-08-18, 22:08 »

Hmmm.  You know what, I was thinking you were on my team (were you? on Polaris?).  I thought it was you, but maybe it was Kajet I was running behind... or maybe I was chasing an enemy...  Either way, I thought I was chasing a doom, and he was strafing, and I thought it was you.  Are you sure you weren't doom on polaris?

lol, forgot to answer your question about quake 1.  You don't use forward, this is the biggest difference between the other classes (although, if you want me to teach you, I can show you how to strafe in a strafe line with the others using only left or right strafe or both, or forward only or backward only, lol, I can do it all).  So what I do is a simple circle jump to begin, then switch to only strafe keys and use the mouse to maneuver.  Slippy's air control is much, much higher as you know, so moving the mouse alters direction immediately.  This means you use slight outward turns so you're doing a little whibble wabble back and forth but maintaining the same general heading.  Doing this means you gain extra speed.  A turn ends up accelerating you even more so, since you don't have to maintain a straight line and can gain all you want from the mouse movement.
« Last Edit: 2008-08-18, 22:14 by fourier » Logged
MarneGator
 

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« Reply #29 on: 2008-08-19, 00:35 »

I remember briefly bounding through the large snowy fields with you on Polaris on the way to the red base, but no, I had remained Arena from when the game switched to CTF.  And the next map I was back on red.
I've never bothered to pester those blokes on the various Defrag forums, but it would be nice to get a couple pointers from somebody that appears to have trickjumping to a 't'.  Guess we need to open a new thread  Slipgate - Laugh
And I'm certainly now trying to get accustomed to Slippy's brand of strafe-jumping!  I just need some more time...
Oh!  And were some of those games recorded?  I seem to remember Pho mentioning that during one of the earlier matches.
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Phoenix
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« Reply #30 on: 2008-08-19, 01:58 »

I got into playing and forgot to actually demo the games. Slipgate - Sad

I was the one grabbing the flag all the time as a Doomer on Polaris.  I only encountered Four a few times I think.  I remember one instance of pinning him in the water with the chaingun and another where two opposing team members followed me down a hall.  I doubled back and fed one of them quadded plasma and the other a volley of quadded rockets.  I think Four might have ran into a rocket that time, not certain who it was though.  Otherwise I tried avoiding opposition except at the enemy base where I could use Doom's speed to get in, grab the flag, and outdistance the defenders.  I knew I could handle any attackers so long as I confined the fights to choke points, where Doom's weapons are most lethal, and then just run like hell across the open areas.  Polaris is definitely a hard map to play with a 3 on 3, you really need 5 vs 5 or more.  It's fairly simple to navigate once you learn the routes and learn how to not get lost in the middle, but it's a LONG run from one base to another and once the flag leaves the base area it's only a matter of time before one of the flag runners bites it and then the other team is almost guaranteed a cap.

Marnegator:  Slipgate movement involves holding a left or right strafe key while jumping and turning at the same time.  It's... odd.  Best thing I can recommend to see a bit of how it works is load up Q3DM17 and play with the bounce pads.  Bounce pads add to Slipgate's acceleration in Gen so you can do some crazy stuff in the air.  Practice choosing a direction, then just turning left and right and see what it does.

Now regarding balance, just wait until I get "oldschool" mode coded.  That's when the kid gloves come off and Doom and Slipgate are going to hurt people in a serious way.  Strogg might get a new (nostalgic Q2) toy, and I'll have to think of something clever for Earth since he's sort of half-Wolf, half our own invention.
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fourier
 
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« Reply #31 on: 2008-08-19, 02:34 »

Well, Marne, I don't consider myself a trick jumper.  Too the normal quake player, I might seem to be, but at best I'm a novice.  I good at plasma climbing and that is something I should demo sometime for you guys -- like a run through of tr1ckhouse-beta3.  Strafe jumping... I'm better than most people, but I'm nothing special when compared to real trick jumpers speed wise.  Now, I did teach myself to strafe with all methods: normal single and double, half beat, quarter beat, inverted, forward or backward only quarter beat, and the reverse versions of those.  I can try to explain it in words, but to be honest, I'm not good at doing that.  I can try to explain the physics and draw some diagrams to explain how Q3 acceleration actually works.  This could be a sort of primer for you, but I would recommend hopping in a server with me and going through some basic training Slipgate - Smile .

I definitely did eat one of those rockets in that tight hallway.  You killed the other two, and I either was out of ammo or had a shotgun.  But what else could I do?  I had to chase and hope for a miracle kill to keep you from capping -- if I didn't you were assured a cap Slipgate - Smile  Normally, I don't like chasing down a player with quad with a shotgun or whatever I was using Slipgate - Wink

The spawns are a problem with that map, though.  Unless I'm not remembering correctly, all the spawns are in base, which makes it very hard to catch a flag carrier.  That map could do with some mid spawns.

I've meant to ask you about earth.  Is the half-Wolf side based solely on wolf3d?  Or is there some rtcw in it?  I don't think the sniper rifles in rtcw were projectiles (that big one with night vision type thing was instant).
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« Reply #32 on: 2008-08-19, 03:24 »

Now regarding balance, just wait until I get "oldschool" mode coded.  That's when the kid gloves come off and Doom and Slipgate are going to hurt people in a serious way.  Strogg might get a new (nostalgic Q2) toy, and I'll have to think of something clever for Earth since he's sort of half-Wolf, half our own invention.

Outside of the Sniper Rifles, isn't the Earth class pretty on par with their classic incarnation? I mean, the Napalm Launcher and Mortar were in the SNES version after all. I guess that an argument could be made against the Duel Gatling Guns, but their presence seems justified enough after showing up in the hands of all those Grosse characters.

I still wouldn't mind seeing old Sarge's grandson, Commander Keen, in game to some extent to another...
« Last Edit: 2008-08-19, 03:26 by ~Va^^pyrA~ » Logged
ReBoOt
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« Reply #33 on: 2008-08-19, 07:40 »

Yeah old school gameplay is something i look forward to..its totally imbalanced so best played aginst the same class but however it's fun to spread mayhem abit Slipgate - Wink

Commander Keen? Imo we already have enough classes as it is whould be a totally waste of putting more time into making another class, so that's prolly a no no.
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Phoenix
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« Reply #34 on: 2008-08-19, 17:31 »

Nothing in the Earth Soldiers class is based on RTCW.  We drew from Wolfenstein-3D, continued on some of the ideas in Generations Q2, and added a few of our own.  The knife, Luger, MP-40, and gatling gun, plus the health pickups are based straight on Wolfenstein-3D.  The dual gatling guns was based on the Grosse family as well as their presence in Generations Q2.  The Mac version of Wolf3D had a bazooka and a flamethrower, which translated into similar weapons in Generations Q2.  I did not work on Gen Q2, but my exposure to it is what eventually landed me in this spot, and early on we drew from some of that for the Earth Soldiers.  The change from the bazooka to the mortar was an idea I cooked up to differentiate his "missile" weapon from everyone else's.  We already have fast rockets, heavy knockback rockets, slow rockets, almost useless rockets, etc, what more can you do with rockets?  The inclusion of the Barrett rifle was a team idea as Earth's slow speed meant he'd be a pin-up target for Arena and Strogg to just rail him at range.  So you have a fast mortar shell and a rifle that can hit at distance when needed, but long-range gunning is not his strongest point since they're tricky to use.  We also gave him some hand grenades since, well, makes sense doesn't it?

I agree with the spawns being only in-base on Polaris, but on the flipside I absolutely detest spawning in the enemy base as happened on some maps.  I'm not sure if that's a map issue or if I need to check something in our spawn code, but I dislike it for two reasons.  First, I don't expect to spawn in the enemy base.  It's disorienting and usually leads to a quick demise.  Second, I don't like enemies spawning in my base.  What's the point of having a defensive strategy if someone's going to spawn behind the choke points and maybe get a lucky flag run or get a lucky kill on your flag carrier that just did all the work getting back and is low on health?  Other players have complained about that as well, so it's something I need to look into.  If it's a code issue I'll fix it.  If it's a map-issue I'm not quite sure what can be done with it.
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« Reply #35 on: 2008-08-19, 22:14 »

I still wouldn't mind seeing old Sarge's grandson, Commander Keen, in game to some extent to another...

Final boss ..? Slipgate - Cool

There is a Keen skin for Slippy kicking around the net, but I couldn't tell you where to get it now. If I can find it on my old Q3 mod backup disks I'll post it.

Thoroughly enjoyed the game on Saturday night but as an old Euro-baddie the mental lag starts kicking in at about 4am. Got a few caps, though Doom - Thumbs Up!
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« Reply #36 on: 2008-08-19, 22:31 »

Well, the point I was making about polaris is that it needs some mid spawns, not spawns in the enemy base.

Regarding the enemy base spawns, there are more than a few 3wave maps that have enemy base spawns, so I doubt it has something to do with your spawn code.  While spawning in the enemy base is good for trying to get the flag or kill an FC, you also are more likely to be killed quickly before you get a chance to do either of those things (depending on the overall level of teamplay going on).
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Kajet
 

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« Reply #37 on: 2008-08-20, 00:19 »

Yeah... Polaris is effing huge... almost as big as Mpterra2, but at least Team Arena had the scout pickup to up your speed...
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Phoenix
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« Reply #38 on: 2008-08-20, 16:41 »

Polaris has two haste spawns, one near each base, that last for quite a while.  I was grabbing them every chance I could so I could run even faster with the Doomer.  That does help a bit.  Polaris is actually geared for Team Arena.  That's part of why there's a grappling hook that spawns on top of I think a lightning gun, and a Teleporter/LSOV combo that spawns on top of a medkit.  It's an item spawn issue with some items being Team Arena-specific.  I coded in a sanity check for spawn flags on the items so that no longer double-spawns stuff like that when using a map with missionpack item spawns in Gen.

At some point I'm planning on making a CTF option where there are team-specific runes available for play on maps with Team Arena powerup spawns.  They'll spawn and apply to the players like in Team Arena (only blue can get blue techs, etc) but they'll be our current set of CTF techs, with one set per team.  It will not replace the normal tech spawn mode but be an alternative mode.  It will also be the default mode for techs when playing with Team Arena maps using the +set fs_basegame missionpack startup arguments, but more on that later.
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fourier
 
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« Reply #39 on: 2008-08-23, 21:01 »

I should be there tonight.  Hope to see you all there.
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