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Makou
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One of a bajillion versions of the story here. In short: Doom 3, its expansion and a new episode called "The Lost Mission" with remastered textures, 3D support, a "silky smooth framerate," an updated checkpoint system for PC, Xbox 360 and Playstation 3. The flashlight is now armor-mounted, so you never have to lower a gun to see where you're going. Doom and Doom 2 are also part of the package, so Final Doom still gets no console love. Hits this fall. Thoughts? |
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If you see a "Rona Altana" out there on the internet somewhere, that's probably me
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J3E125
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Not much worth on PC other than the new Pak. Consoles, on the other hand, It's worth a try.
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Kajet
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Oh look, another attempt to cash in on older games by re-releasing it...
Call me bitter but I dunno, with stuff like this I only think it's lazy to port a game to a newer system and only dick around with the graphics to make it look better, The fact that they're making a new level/area/whatever does make up for it a little but I think that companies who do this stuff have no right to charge anything over say... $15-$20 unless there is a lot of new content.
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~Va^^pyrA~
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I'm be curious to see what the remastered textures and lighting look like. There are already plenty of mods available to achieve more modernized aesthetics. It'd be nice to have an official update however, packaged and ready to go. The same rings true with the mounted flashlight.
Really, this is just an excuse to give console kiddies and updated experience in preparation for Doom 4's eventual release. No one else really needs to be reminded about Doom, after all.
I might consider grabbing it as a budget title. It's been long enough that playing through the game again might be worthwhile with some refreshed graphics. Certainly the all new levels are intriguing, though I doubt will amount to much. It's just a shame they didn't work one of those co-op mods into the mix as well.
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Gnam
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I suppose all we can do is hope that the new mission pack is closer to Quake 4's more open, action-oriented approach to level design than Doom 3's ultra-constricted, tripwire-and-monstercloset-driven attempt at horror. Checkpoint system? Seriously? I can understand this on the console versions, but if it has no quicksave on the PC it will get a lot of well-deserved hate. I despise checkpoint-only saves.
Eh, personally I prefer a good checkpoint system to quicksaves. Saving anywhere is just too abuseable; you get people clearing 1 room, saving, walking to the next room, saving, clearing it, saving, walking to the next room, saving...It makes the whole game feel watered down just knowing it's an option. I think being set back by a defined degree - whether it's the beginning of a level or only half way back - is an important part of the challenge, a significant punishment for your death, particularly given that FPS never have limited lives or "game over". In short, quicksaves are for pussies. That's not to say that many games don't have flawed checkpoint systems though. Halo's springs to mind; they give you too many, and since you can't choose the timing yourself, it saves at horrible points in the middle of an ambush, or when you're about to drive off a cliff. I think Bioshocks criochambers, set at specific intervals, and requiring the player to deliberately enter at his convenience to save, it more on point. |
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Tabun
Pixel Procrastinator
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Where's the problem in letting the player have the responsibility for (ab)using the quicksaves? If you're a wuss, play like a wuss; if not, don't. If you destroy your own enjoyment of the game by exploiting a feature, you've only yourself to blame. A little self-discipline goes a long way... :]
Quicksaves are useful, for me, because I don't want my games ruling my life (too much). If a game forces me to choose to replay a section or not quit whenever I want to, then that game presents an unnecessary dilemma.
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« Last Edit: 2012-06-04, 14:59 by Tabun »
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| Tabun |
?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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Phoenix
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That's not to say that many games don't have flawed checkpoint systems FPS shooters started on the PC. Early FPS games like Wolfenstein, Doom, Quake, Heretic, Blake Stone, Duke Nukem 3D... you found health packs, carried an arsenal, saved where you wanted, and then along comes COD and HALO and now you carry two freaking guns, your health regenerates, and the game saves where it wants to instead of where the player wants to, and there's hints all over the place. Maps are linear and half the game is scripted. Checkpoints are a direct result of console porting. They do NOT belong in Doom 3 for the PC anymore than regenerating health or a 2 weapon limit would. I am getting rather fed up with PC game makers catering to the console crowd and I cannot believe that someone's on this board, which is dedicated to nostalgic game play, arguing in favor of checkpoints. In short, quicksaves are for pussies. You say this after quoting me? That better not be a personal swipe. I'll tell you what's for pussies: Regenerating health, aim-assist, cannon-fodder NPC's, automatic radar and danger hints. I'd love to see someone that's played only COD try to get through Wolfenstein 3D on Death Incarnate, then throw them into a Quakeworld deathmatch with some old-school fraggers. CONSOLES are for pussies.  |
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  I fly into the night, on wings of fire burning bright...
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Thomas Mink
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Quick saves were awesome.. in all games, not just FPS's. Sierra adventures without quick saves? No thanks. Baldur's Gate series without quick saves? I'd probably play it because the games were so good, but it would still annoy me (see below for my thoughts on many console/modern RPGs). Doom or Quake without them? Same as with BG, really.
Having to watch the same cutscene.. or hear/read the same dialogue.. or play through a trivial portion of the game.. to get to the section that gave you trouble.. numerous times.. would get really old really fast. And yes, the crappy save system is why I don't see why so many people loved the FF series so much. It was tedious and annoying when you died. Thankfully there are emulators out there now to quell that problem, so I can finally not get as annoyed over stupid stuff. The modern games aren't nearly as bad in that regard, but I've noticed that more checkpoints get crammed into areas to the point that it may as well have just allowed quick saving.. and hell, it's probably worse because it saves in places I probably never would have if I were allowed to on my own.
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« Last Edit: 2012-06-05, 05:17 by Thomas Mink »
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Gnam
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FPS shooters started on the PC. Early FPS games like Wolfenstein, Doom, Quake, Heretic, Blake Stone, Duke Nukem 3D... you found health packs, carried an arsenal, saved where you wanted, and then along comes COD and HALO and now you carry two freaking guns, your health regenerates, and the game saves where it wants to instead of where the player wants to, and there's hints all over the place. Maps are linear and half the game is scripted. Checkpoints are a direct result of console porting. They do NOT belong in Doom 3 for the PC anymore than regenerating health or a 2 weapon limit would. I am getting rather fed up with PC game makers catering to the console crowd and I cannot believe that someone's on this board, which is dedicated to nostalgic game play, arguing in favor of checkpoints. I would say I'm dedicated to quality play more so than nostalgia. I enjoy games like Doom and Quake because they're good, not because they're old, and I dislike games like COD and Halo because they're bad, not because they're new. Ultimately, I think checkpoints are the least of modern games' problems. What really brings them down is bad weapon mechanics, bad AI, and bad level/scenario design. Survival and performance-based play have been an aspect of games since before FPS. There was a time when in order to play level 7, you had to be good enough to first blow through levels 1-6 in one sitting. I see good checkpoint systems as a worthy compromise between the two; you can save, but you have to be able to survive in between the checkpoints. That doesn't mean the game has to constantly save for you wherever it wants. Just curious - did System Shock 1&2 have save anywhere, or save spots as in Bioshock? I think you could find a PC-based origin for the good checkpoint systems in the world. You say this after quoting me? That better not be a personal swipe. Of course not, I've never seen you play campaigns, so how could I judge your ability at them? In any case I haven't forgotten your success in virtually all 1v1 encounters we've had in Generations. As for 2 weapon limits, I actually think that could work in a modern Doom game, for the same reason you enjoyed iron sights and realistic recoil in Legendary. In order to create horror, you have to instill immersion and believability, and being able to effortlessly carry 8-10 weapons in your back pocket compromises that. It wouldn't even need to be 2 a weapon limit, it could be 3-4, particularly if many of them were designed especially compactly, or supported multiple ammo types. After all, even in the original iD games, after mastering the optimal places to use each weapon, many of us probably stick to our 2 favorites a good deal of the time. A shotgun and chaingun can get you through most of Doom without the dire need for other weapons. Overall I think it's important not to let our love of Id's games blind us. If we write off every aspect related to newer games as totally abhorrent, it stops us from separating the mechanics that truly ruin modern games from those mechanics which might be beneficial if used properly. Having to watch the same cutscene.. or hear/read the same dialogue.. or play through a trivial portion of the game.. to get to the section that gave you trouble.. numerous times.. would get really old really fast. I'd say the ideal solution would be for designers to exclude trivial annoying cutscenes, dialog, and other portions from the game in the first place. Morever, checkpoints can easily be placed after the cutscenes and dialog with the option to watch to rewatch them if you forgot, or just allow the player to always skip dialog/cutscenes whenever he/she wants to. And yes, the crappy save system is why I don't see why so many people loved the FF series so much. It was tedious and annoying when you died. Thankfully there are emulators out there now to quell that problem, so I can finally not get as annoyed over stupid stuff. The modern games aren't nearly as bad in that regard, but I've noticed that more checkpoints get crammed into areas to the point that it may as well have just allowed quick saving.. and hell, it's probably worse because it saves in places I probably never would have if I were allowed to on my own. Personally I never found the save points of FF1-6 to be much of a problem (the placement of checkpoints and cutscenes definitely got bad after that, but those games were also just mostly bad). I also generally play through Doom and Quake by only saving once at the beginning of each level, and just collect everything over when I die as punishment, rather than reloading the save. There have also always been those who would rather speed run the game with various restriction to optimize the the challenge...point being that play without quicksaves is an equally valid option, and the lack thereof is not immediate reason to hate a game. At the end of the say, the biggest drawbacks to BFG Edition will be the same as original Doom 3; the environments are ultra-constricted and ultra-linear, invisible walls block monsters from chasing you down, the weapons are serviceable at best, and the designers were too lazy to conceive and build entryways for the monsters to attack from through through most of the game, instead dropping monsters into predictable locations via a hideously slow spawn animation ad nauseum. Were BFG Edition to correct any of those flaws, I'd gladly accept whatever silly checkpoint system they decided to slap in there, or accept no saves at all. Too bad it won't. We just have to accept that games today are heavily flawed and rarely worth paying attention to. If you want a good one, you have to make one yourself, or mod the bad parts out of someone else's game. |
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Phoenix
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I would say I'm dedicated to quality play more so than nostalgia. I enjoy games like Doom and Quake because they're good, not because they're old, and I dislike games like COD and Halo because they're bad, not because they're new. I suppose I'm just nostalgic for the old good games.  What really brings them down is bad weapon mechanics, bad AI, and bad level/scenario design. No argument from me there.Survival and performance-based play have been an aspect of games since before FPS. There was a time when in order to play level 7, you had to be good enough to first blow through levels 1-6 in one sitting. I see good checkpoint systems as a worthy compromise between the two; you can save, but you have to be able to survive in between the checkpoints. The only problem with this is, as Tabun said, time. Some people don't have a lot of time to dedicate to play, and quicksave lets you just up and leave whenever you want and pickup again where you left off. That's a good compromise between real life and game time. I understand there is a question of skill level but when playing a single-player game, who are you trying to impress? It's not like an old arcade machine where you have a high score to beat, a rather short and difficult game, and no way to save at all.
You say this after quoting me? That better not be a personal swipe.
Of course not, I've never seen you play campaigns, so how could I judge your ability at them? In any case I haven't forgotten your success in virtually all 1v1 encounters we've had in Generations. As for 2 weapon limits, I actually think that could work in a modern Doom game, for the same reason you enjoyed iron sights and realistic recoil in Legendary. It could work in a horror-themed game, but Doom has too much nostalgia behind it and it would evoke the same reaction a lot of people had to Duke Nukem Forever having a two weapon limit. One game weapon limits did work OK with was F.E.A.R.A shotgun and chaingun can get you through most of Doom without the dire need for other weapons. That's pretty much how Episode 1 was played - lots of shotgun and chaingun, and the occasional rocket. The bigger guns - plasma and BFG9000 - were individually introduced in the next two episodes. Part of this went back to the marketing strategy at the time. Shareware gave you a good taste of what was there, the later episodes gave you stuff you couldn't get in the shareware version.I'd say the ideal solution would be for designers to exclude trivial annoying cutscenes, dialog, and other portions from the game in the first place. That's one thing I don't like about a lot of modern games is the overuse of cut scenes. An occasional cut scene that advances a plot point is fine, but every time you mean a new freaking monster? I remember in Quake the first time you met a fiend it just jumped in your face. Same with the headcrabs in Half-Life. My very first encounter with the Doom cyberdemon was memorable. Too many cut scenes take the suspense away.If you want a good one, you have to make one yourself, or mod the bad parts out of someone else's game. I actually modded the weapons in Doom 3 and that's the only way I play it now. I tightened the shotgun spread (serious WTF id) and reduced the damage so it was more inline with the Doom 1 shotgun, sped up the plasma projectile speed to match the original Doom, and made all the guns fire from the muzzle instead of the crosshair to make up-close kills a bit more graphically realistic. That still can't fix the monster AI problems, like Trites following a player path instead of crawling up walls and obstacles to get at you, or Pinky demons not being able to attack you just because you're up on a crate. Don't get me wrong, I love Doom 3's atmosphere and the Hell level was visually amazing. Id could have done much more with the design.
That's why I keep hoping for a Quake 1 reboot. Keep the best parts of classic Q1 game play but make it creepy as hell and don't give the players any hints. |
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I fly into the night, on wings of fire burning bright...
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scalliano
Elite
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Yup, that's me
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Funny I should come across this thread now, after coming off the back of some bloke on Doomworld bitching about the lack of cutscenes and other modern features in Doom 2 mods ... yeah ...
AFAIC there is no realistic reason not to have quicksaves. If it was possible in Tomb Raider 2 on the PS1, then it's possible on today's systems.
But, yeah, when it gets to the stage where dying in a game actually takes effort (Prey, Borderlands and Rage, I'm looking in your direction) then all hope for a proper challenge is lost. Thank goodnes for all of those bonkers bullet-hell shooters keeping my interest in consoles alive.
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PSN ID: scalliano
The Arena knows no gender, colour or creed, only skill.
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Kain-Xavier
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Long post ahead... ...so Final Doom still gets no console love.
Final DOOM was released for the PlayStation. Also, the new episode featured in DOOM II for XBLA is very Final-DOOM-like during the latter half. Checkpoint system? Seriously? I can understand this on the console versions, but if it has no quicksave on the PC it will get a lot of well-deserved hate. I despise checkpoint-only saves.
Going off of this link, it seems like the checkpoint save system will compliment the existing save features. Also, I recall the Xbox version of DOOM 3 featuring level saves in addition to the ability to save anywhere. Perhaps, it will be similar if not the same? The fact that they're making a new level/area/whatever does make up for it a little but I think that companies who do this stuff have no right to charge anything over say... $15-$20 unless there is a lot of new content.
Yeah, I more or less agree with you there even though I will probably wind up purchasing it anyway. (I am something of a collector.) Let's hope the Steam version of DOOM 3 gets a free patch or that we can at least purchase the new content separately. I might consider grabbing it as a budget title. It's been long enough that playing through the game again might be worthwhile with some refreshed graphics. Certainly the all new levels are intriguing, though I doubt will amount to much. It's just a shame they didn't work one of those co-op mods into the mix as well.
It'd be nice to see some of the Resurrection of Evil content make its way into the main game but I doubt we will be that lucky. Regarding co-op, the Xbox port of DOOM 3 featured co-op out of the box but Resurrection of Evil did not sadly. (I am still clinging to that small sliver of hope, however.) CONSOLES are for pussies. I will let that comment slide because you were obviously heated when you posted that. Needless to say, I disagree. About quick-saving... I am fine with quick-saves so long as they are not the only method of saving game progress in a particular game. I have, on more than one occasion, permanently sporked myself over by relying on them. (I am a little obsessive-compulsive so I tend to abuse quick-save systems.) That's why I keep hoping for a Quake 1 reboot. Keep the best parts of classic Q1 game play but make it creepy as hell and don't give the players any hints.
You and me both. The DOOM 3 engine was perfect for a reboot. I guess the closest we'll have for now is the Shambler's Castle mod. |
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Tabun
Pixel Procrastinator
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Elite (3k+)
Posts: 3330
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Wait, nearly every game is for 'pussies'. Except IWTBTG. Let's beat that first, then laugh at everything else. ;] |
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| Tabun |
?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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J3E125
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I just realized the only reason they're releasing Doom is to get more people on the id "train", particularly console users. So if this sells well, we could see a Doom 4 very soon. This sounds like an ultimatum to me.
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ReBoOt
Mean ol Swede
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Never seen so much beeing discusses just bout the quicksave feature  IMO i dont mind quicksave at all but i can also see the point in the checkpoint system aswell. As i love the old style FPS type of games i certainly NOT dislike the new ones thought, i believe modern fps bring games to a certain level that werent possible in the ol days, so scripted events makes things more fun i dont see the reason to dislike this? i recall the cyberdemon event in doom 3..now that's the type of "events" i like. Of course i dont like this "duck and regain health" type of system i prefer the one when you activly need to find health packs (which sometimes could annoy you when you played coop and your mate hogging every item/weapon in game ) Regarding Halo, we had regenreative shields however if you lost health you had to get an health pack this worked like a charm in halo 1 thought they had to "ruin" it and replace it with a regen shield type only for halo 2.. Anyways for final words: I like the old school games but i dont mind the modern fps either, and it really doesnt matter if it's on console or PC, same shit diffrent..ehr controller! Only reason i see to favor the PC over the console is general mod support is PC only. |
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scalliano
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Yup, that's me
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@Tab: That's nothing compared to IWBTFG  @Reboot: True, although the PS3 version of UT3 supported mods, to a degree. |
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PSN ID: scalliano
The Arena knows no gender, colour or creed, only skill.
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Gnam
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I actually modded the weapons in Doom 3 and that's the only way I play it now. I tightened the shotgun spread (serious WTF id) and reduced the damage so it was more inline with the Doom 1 shotgun, sped up the plasma projectile speed to match the original Doom, and made all the guns fire from the muzzle instead of the crosshair to make up-close kills a bit more graphically realistic. That still can't fix the monster AI problems, like Trites following a player path instead of crawling up walls and obstacles to get at you, or Pinky demons not being able to attack you just because you're up on a crate. Don't get me wrong, I love Doom 3's atmosphere and the Hell level was visually amazing. Id could have done much more with the design. Yeah, I've been thinking about doing the same thing for when my GF and I beat Final Doom and have nothing left to co-op....coming from Brutal Doom, Doom 3's weapons will feel like a horrible let down. I made my own shotgun mods back when Doom 3 was released, but what I'd really like is to mod the machinegun to function more like an assault rifle - with serious recoil, semi-auto mode, and headshot kills on zombies. Likewise, the chaingun could use a gigantic boost in firerate - how did Id manage to make it SLOWER than the standard MG? It'd be tough to get the AR recoil system right as that's a lot more complex that just changing a few values, but a few Doom 3 mods have attempted it, so it shouldn't be impossible to peice the code together. If it were possible to use these modded weapons in Classic Doom 3, complete with reloads, it'd be badass. Borderlands... I don't know how many times I died trying to take on certain enemies before I had advanced up in level. First Alpha Scag I ran into and first time I took on Bonehead was not fun. I'd get them almost dead and get hit by a stray bullet or a lucky swipe. Same thing first time I took on crabworms in the cave. I was following the plot line too much and not exploring enough in the beginning. After a while though it became pretty easy to dominate just about everything once you find a few good weapons. The only exception is Mad Moxxi's Underdome Riot since all the enemies spawn at the same level as you. You can either grind 20 levels for hours on end and hope you don't die, or find someone of lower level than you to host and mop the floor with the bad guys.
Indeed, I hope to god developers eventually realize the folly of exerience point-based challenge. Borderlands' co-op format and sprawling overworld were great fun, but shooting enemies in the head repeatedly while they walk back and forth in front of a crate, firing randomly and yelling "LOSIN' BLOOD!", isn't challenging even if it takes 5 minutes to wear down all their HP. I think Rage deserves credit for its challenge level by comparison, as it's essentially the same game as Borderlands, only without the experience system. The enemies in Rage are a lot more competent - dodging side to side when they rush you and taking cover much more effectively in ranged combat. This method of challenge makes for a superior combat experience all around, and if Rage had only included co-op for it's full campaign it would have been hands down a superior title in all respects. |
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