Tekhead
Elite
Posts: 1110
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Even though it is an uncommon weapon, the major complaint is this:
There is abseloutely no way to counter it.[/b]
Earth's dual gats have limited ammo and only excel at close range.
Doom's BFG9000 can be evaded by not being in the view of the shooter.
Q1's Lightning Gun is difficult to use, and has extremely limited ammo.
Q2's BFG10K is slow-moving, and can be evaded if you're not cornered.
Q3's BFG...?
With every game that an Earth character plays, a BFG will almost always be dropped at least once. That BFG holds 10 shots. Those 10 shots can easily equal 10 kills. If Doom or Q2 pick it up, wield it and Q3 kills them before they can get a shot off, that's about another 10 kills. In big games with fraglimits of 50, it can shorten the game length greatly. It is vasty overpowered, and that's why it needs balanced, otherwise anyone who picks to play Arena has a greater chance of winning on any map w/ a BFG.
In short, if the only way to counter this weapon is to get one yourself, that's unbalanced and the weapon should be tweaked.
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Phoenix
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Play dirty pool. Do whatever it takes to win. If that means hunting that person down and denying them the weapon then that's strategy too. If it means spawn killing them at every turn, do it! That's cheap, you might say? Well, if you consider the BFG cheap, what's the difference? Fight fire with fire. Get your own BFG. Switch classes if you need to. Adjust your strategy first, and THEN complain about weapon balance. I did not say the ONLY way to counter the Q3 BFG is to get another Q3 BFG, I said to get your own BFG, of whatever flavor you choose. Would you counter a railgun with a shotgun if someone sniping at you? No, but you could counter it with a Doom chaingun or a Sniper Rifle.Earth's dual gats have limited ammo and only excel at close range. The Q3 BFG also has limited ammo, unless DMFLAGS are set for infinite.Doom's BFG9000 can be evaded by not being in the view of the shooter. Same with the Q3 BFG. It's not a grenade launcher. Also, this isn't entirely true. I can shoot the Doom BFG down a hall, run in a perpendicular direction, and if you're on a parallel direction with the ball on the same side of me you're toast, even though I might have my back turned to you.Q1's Lightning Gun is difficult to use, and has extremely limited ammo. It's also a lightning-gun class weapon, even though it picks up for the BFG slot.Q2's BFG10K is slow-moving, and can be evaded if you're not cornered. And it's awfully hard to hide from those tracer lasers, and if you do hide Strogg has usually changed weapons or else fired another round by the time you come out. Point?Q3's BFG...? Has a limited splash radius and no wide area effect. Sure, you can spam a room with it, but across massive distances it's nothing more than an overpowered plasmagun. Unless you're up close it's useless on Q3tourney6. Vesperas, yes, it can be a problem but that is ONE MAP. Let's see, Grim Dungeons? Plenty of map to roam, and Quad can counter it. Demon Keep? Has an invuln and quad, and LSOV. Also have to rocket jump to get it. Eternal Arenas? You know when someone just grabbed it, and there's a grenade launcher over the BFG spawn area. Doesn't take much to pop a few pills down the hole, or else lie in wait with a rail or rocket launcher near the stairs or bounce pads.
I would also disagree that 10 shots from the Q3 BFG can "easily" equal 10 kills. It does 100 damage per hit, like a railgun, 100 splash, like a q3 rocket, and has a 120 unit splash radius. An armored player will take a lot more than one shot, assuming you don't miss too badly. You can get 10 kills with 10 shots from the shotgun if you're good with it and only shoot freshly spawned players at point blank range. Skippy can get 10 kills with that rocket launcher quite easily.
You want a class-by-class on how to counter the Q3 BFG? Here's a few ideas.
Earth
Long range: Sniper. Close range: Run around corners and leave napalm trails, hand grenade surprises, and mortar impacts for indirect suppressing fire. Napalm will keep hurting even if you die.
Doom
Long range: Chaingun cha-cha. Close range: Run around a corner and pull the BFG9000 peekaboo flash trick. Otherwise spam rockets at the intersection where you expect him to run out after you.
Slipgate
Long range: Get into rocket range. Rocket spam and bounce the guy all over the place. Close range: The grenade launcher isn't a spam cannon for nothing. Use it like you mean it, and let him run into a hall full of pineapples.
Strogg
Long range: Rail, naturally. Close range: Again, grenade launcher, rocket launcher suppression. If line of sight use the BFG10K and aim at the floor between him and you to get the ball to explode faster. Chaingun is also recommended.
A large part of this involves removing the "line of sight" mentality from your tactics. A hell of a lot of players who've been on cable or DSL for years have the mindset of only shooting what they can see. I was on a modem for a VERY long time. I played a lot of RA2 against point+click 30 ping railwhores who were about as tactically apt as a kid on a pogostick in a minefield. The grenadelauncher became my best friend. Why? I knew I couldn't compete with ping in a rail fest, so I took the line of sight factor out of the equation. The Q3 BFG, without a clear line of sight, is nothing but a high-speed waste of ammo. Since the BFG user will almost certainly be aggressive, fight a retreating battle and use the map geometry to your advantage. Remember, chasing attackers are predictable. You've already gone where they're going. This is what I mean by "change your strategy". If what you're trying isn't working than either try harder or try something else.
Like I said before, this is not a definite "we're never going to touch it" but for now it stays as is.  |
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  I fly into the night, on wings of fire burning bright...
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ConfusedUs
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I'm in complete and total agreement with Tek. There is no counter. As I've stated in the posts above, every other BFG has a weakness. Even lee's suggestion (in the channel) of lowering the ammo count isn't good enough. The weapon HAS NO DOWNFALL.
It's a BFG, and should be able to clear a room, but that room should at least HAVE A CHANCE. Even the 9k, which is the strongest BFG, other than the one in question, gives you a minute chance of getting the hell outta the way. And q3BFG spamfests are just boring.
I don't complain about the other weapons you stated above simply because they all have a weakness. Rails have that refire time, slippy rockets don't work at long range, etc. A BFG should be strong, should be powerful, should kill lots of people if used properly. But the q3BFG doesn't have that 'if used properly' qualifier. ANYONE can pick it up and waste 5+ people easily. And BFGs are pretty damn common in Gen, especially if someone is playign earth. A lot of our popular maps have BFGs. Vesperas is one of our most-played maps, as is Entryway. BOTH have BFGs in easy to reach places.
I'm not in favor of nerfing the other weapons. I have no problems with things like slippy's rockets, which are still a bit too powerful in my opinion, because it's still possible to get away or kill the person using it. It's damn near impossible to kill a q3BFG user without a BFG of your own, and that's just wrong.
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ConfusedUs
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In response to Pho's post. In most cases, but time you know the q3player HAS the BFG it's too late. There's not that CHANCE to get out of the line of sight. The plasmaballs are FAST, do a lot of damage, and bounce as bad as slippy rockets. Once you get hit, you're likely to get hit again, and again, till you're dead, unless the BFG'r is completely inept. Long range: Sniper. Close range: Run around corners and leave napalm trails, hand grenade surprises, and mortar impacts for indirect suppressing fire. Napalm will keep hurting even if you die. If you're long range, sniper is ok. But what if you miss. Arena is FAST when strafejumping, you'll only get one shot, maybe two if you're lucky. And anyone can miss. As for the napalm, if you're close enough to see he has a BFG, then you'll probably die before you can get around a corner Long range: Chaingun cha-cha. Close range: Run around a corner and pull the BFG9000 peekaboo flash trick. Otherwise spam rockets at the intersection where you expect him to run out after you. Long range is easy to kill a BFGr, but see the above. Doom can get away, but it's not easy to cha-cha a rapidly and erratically moving player. Close range: Once again, this relies mostly on luck and spam. And requiring a BFG to counter the weapon is one of my arguements against the weapon. You can take out a 9000 user with rockets...not a chance in hell against a q3BFG unless you're lucky. Long range: Get into rocket range. Rocket spam and bounce the guy all over the place. Close range: The grenade launcher isn't a spam cannon for nothing. Use it like you mean it, and let him run into a hall full of pineapples. If you're in rocket range, you're in trouble, cuz you're gonna be bouncin just as much as he is, and the BFG files much much faster and the projectiles fly faster. And once again, relying on a) seeing him first, and B) spamming and hoping the BFG'r is dumb enough to run into a minefield isn't much of a tactic Long range: Rail, naturally. Close range: Again, grenade launcher, rocket launcher suppression. If line of sight use the BFG10K and aim at the floor between him and you to get the ball to explode faster. Chaingun is also recommended. Long range isn't the issue here. It isn't with any of the BFGs. And again, your close range tactics require a) you see him first in time to get around a corner you hope is near by, and B) the BFG'r is dumb enough to run into a minefield. Chaingun doesn't stand a CHANCE, as you'll be bouncin like mad. And requiring a BFG to counter the weapon....see above. Like tek and I are saying, the q3bfg is BY FAR the most powerful gun in the game. It's virtually unstoppable unless you're far enough to rail the BFG user while doding those insanely fast plasmaballs. And once you get hit...you're bouncin around like a slippy rocket hit you, and you're easy meat. Moral of the post: any tactic that relies on luck, spam, and hoping the other player is dumb enough to run into a minefield just isn't much of a tactic. |
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« Last Edit: 2003-09-20, 04:24 by ConfusedUs »
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Phoenix
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Again, the word I keep reading here is "see". In ever situation you're mentioning, you're assuming the following:
1) You're line of sight with the guy
2) He's already in range
3) You're the intended target
4) You're deaf as a post
Unless it's a 1 vs 1 situation, there's a good chance someone else has met the guy first. In that situation, you'll either see a nice obit at the top of your screen that's a dead giveaway (no pun), or else hear the gun being shot. In a 4 player DM that's a 1 in 3 chance you have of meeting the offending player. If he's not pointed right at you when you see him then you do have options to get to a better position or else shoot him in the back and run like hell to reposition. Just because the gun is strong doesn't make it unstoppable, and I have yet to be convinced it is completely unstoppable.
As I said before, if it CONTINUES to be a serious problem, and not just 1 or 2 people complaining about it once every 8 months, and we can get a good, viable change that isn't going to do more harm than good or completely change the feel of the weapon for the Q3 class, then a change may be in order. Maybe even something as simple as cutting the splash damage back might be an option?
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I fly into the night, on wings of fire burning bright...
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Lilazzkicker
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Hmm, with as often as i have encountered the q3bfg, which is a rarity, it can be countered, and most players that pick it up spam 3-4 shots using it, to get one kill. I dont have problems with it. If i have any problems to mention it would be slippys ammo count, that is more of a problem them the q3bfg atm. It still seems over balanced somewhere.
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ConfusedUs
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1) Most firefights begin with line of sight. Not all, but a large precentage.
2) The q3BFG's range is longer than a slippy rocket, so on most maps, anywhere you encounter a gladiator with a BFG, you'll already BE in range.
3) It usually only takes one or two shots to kill a person with this weapon, and it refires FAST. Even if you're NOT the target, you're not gonna have much of an opening unless it's a large firefight.
4) Deaf as a post. It's easy to hear footsteps, but telling the footsteps apart? I'm not sure on this, but I've only noticed three or four different types of footsteps. Cyborgs go CLANK. Weird things (klesk, orbb) go CLICK. People go THUNK. It's much easier if the gladiator's jumping, as you can hear 'em easier and every model has its own sounds. But telling classes by footsteps is hard.
And yes, you'll probably see the obit first, but that doesn't tell you WHERE the gladiator is. You could turn a corner right into him.
And once again, relying on LUCK to save your ass isn't right. So you get lucky and he doesn't see you or hear you. You shouldn't HAVE to rely on luck!
And it is a serious problem. It only crops up every few months because it's usually shot down so hard that our regulars (who are 90% of our audience) don't bother doing it again.
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Phoenix
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Half the game of deathmatch IS luck. It's opportunity. You can "luck" into someone shooting a BFG9000. You can luck into respawning into a well armed player 10 times straight. I remember someone complaining about "always spawning near that damned bird" a few times.  For a modem player damn near half their shots are luck with the rail. You can "luck" into respawning in front of someone's rocket to give them the gamewinning frag. I remember this happening to me on Vesperas when I was still on dialup. It was your rocket I spawned into. :blink:
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I fly into the night, on wings of fire burning bright...
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ConfusedUs
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Off topic: Can we PLEASE have a 5-second spawn protection DMflag?
Yes, luck is a large part of the game.
But it shouldn't be ESSENTIAL to ANY part of the game. A skilled player won't die often enough to worry about many spawn frags. But that skilled player would have to worry about being lucky enough to get the drop on a q3BFG user.
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Lilazzkicker
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:/
Me wishes he could play more then one map per gen startup
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ConfusedUs
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Not such a bad idea...but also, fully loaded isn't a good test of the thing. I'm talking about the BFG in a standard match.
My propsal.
Standard map, standard DMflags. Tomorrows forum game will do nicely. We can encourage some arena players, and see what happens.
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Lilazzkicker
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i think i can give it a run, tweak everything to the lowest ugliest settings, maybe it will work, simple items even!
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ConfusedUs
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But a fully loaded game isn't representative of what a NORMAL game is. Everyone's armed to the teeth. IN a standard game, there's almost always a weapon or two missing from your inventory, and your health/armor isn't always maxed.
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Tekhead
Elite
Posts: 1110
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A large part of this involves removing the "line of sight" mentality from your tactics. A hell of a lot of players who've been on cable or DSL for years have the mindset of only shooting what they can see. I was on a modem for a VERY long time... [etc] May I assume that you're attacking the way I play? If so, that part of your post should belong in CC instead of here. At any rate, we should do some public 1v1 testing, switching classes just to test Arena's weapon balance versus the rest. We'd take turns being Arena... sound like a good idea? |
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ConfusedUs
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I'm focused more on the FFA aspects of the BFG. The BFG is the end-all of 1on1 play, and doesn't really apply
And he's NOT attacking the way you play. He's making an observation about the general run-of-the-mill q3 player. Very very few players get past LoS playing.
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Tekhead
Elite
Posts: 1110
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Well then! We could use our forum game to test this theory. Also, 1v1 would yield good results, as FFA is mostly a series of 1v1 fights, except the opponents refresh themselves faster  |
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Phoenix
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1 vs 1 playing only tests 1 vs 1 gameplay though. FFA has a lot of varying situations. Sure, you get 1 vs 1 fights, but you also get the 1 vs 1 fight where someone shows up from nowhere and obliterates both in said fight.
And I'm not attacking your gameplay style Tek, as Con stated it was a general observation of how a lot of people play. There are a lot of skilled players who only play Line of Sight, but there are also a lot of ping-only players who don't have any real skill beyond point+click rails. I had one guy in particular charge head long into 2 grenades I bounced around a corner after railing me once so he could try to line up a second shot. That's what I mean by the pogo-stick in the landmine sensibility here. He didn't just stumble into them, I saw his soon-to-be corpse strafe-jump into the hallway right into a live pill when he CHARGED into them. Besides, this was in an RA2 game in Quake 2. I know how you play, and you play Gen quite well.
Con: We can test non loaded on the BFG enabled maps if you prefer. Like I said, I just prefer to test in a controlled environment and keep the forum games for fun play as opposed to testing. That way we're concentrating more on what we're setting out to do, and less upon winning individually.
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I fly into the night, on wings of fire burning bright...
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ConfusedUs
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But like I said, Fully Loaded is NOT FFA playability, just like 1on1 is not. It's a WHOLE different ballgame.
Just next time you play, encourage someone to go gladiator and get the BFG. See what happens. A bad player won't get far. And average player will get a few kills with it. A GOOD player will be nearly unstoppable unless they play dumb (i.e. running into grenade minefield)
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