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Woodsman
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well seeing how the first goverment press confrence on the subject started with "we got him" im gonna bet its him. words cannot convey the happyness.
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games keeper
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to bad now they only have to find his nukes that arent there  |
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Phoenix
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Confirmed: It's him. According to the TV report they've made a positive identification.
Games Keeper: Can't you FOR ONCE see the positive in something? Or is it "too bad" that a murderous tyrant who oppressed an entire country for many years has been captured? Oh I forgot, your hatred of the USA kind of overrides that. My mistake. You really make me sick, you know that? I only hope that one day you'll get to know what it's like to have someone else's boot continuously stamped into YOUR face so you can have some flocking CLUE what these people went through over there! :angry: 
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  I fly into the night, on wings of fire burning bright...
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Woodsman
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lets not ruin this by quarling amoung friends. People are sure to have mixed feelings on this subject but i would advise we keep our criticisms of one another from getting too personal.
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« Last Edit: 2003-12-14, 14:28 by Woodsman »
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Dicion
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wow... that, from woodsman??
i'm impressed woods
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Tabun
Pixel Procrastinator
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nice smiley in that first post too :]]
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| Tabun |
?Morituri Nolumus Mori? |
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Devlar
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Personally, I think Saddam's capture does as much to hurt the US effort as to aid it, although it does allow them a temporary reprieve from attacks by the masses.
Think of it this way, so far the US has been blaming the gross conditions of the Iraqi people on Saddam and his cronies. They have caught him, this gives them a good faith period in which they are able to improve the general living conditions of the average Iraqi citizen. Now if in this grace period the conditions do not improve, if there is fewer fresh water, food, and electricity to go around, chances are the Iraqi masses will turn against their occupiers to a larger degree than they have before.
Internationally they now have to deal with the legitimacy of any tribunal that is put forth to publicly judge Saddam. This will not go to the ICC. It cannot go to the US kangaroo courts that are trying Guantanamo prisoners since it will appear to be illegitimate by most of the region. At the same time, it cannot be very public since Saddam would reveal the extent of American involvement in his regime which would be publicly humiliating to the US administration as well as the United States Government as a whole.
I personally hope the US takes advantage of the situation and improves the conditions of the average Iraqi but I'm not very confident that they will be able to do so in the short period they have before the masses turn on them
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Phoenix
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Woodsman: I prefer honesty to tact. It is more useful. I am very much tired and frustrated with people who refuse to see ANY good come out of something like this. This world is so full of negativity and hate, doom and gloom, and it burns me what people have to go out of their way to dismiss anything positive that comes along. That Games Keeper was so quick to just find something, ANYTHING wrong with this news infuriated me. It's how I feel, plain and simple. This is Controversy Corner, not Friendship 101, and I will not apoligize for my feelings on this forum. I will, however, continue to treat Games Keeper with every bit of respect he treats me with. How I feel about someone does not necessarily rule how much courtesy I extend to them.
Devlar: I know we rarely see eye to eye on political issues, but you bring up some very valid points here. It will be interesting to see how this plays out, and I certainly hope the ball isn't dropped now that Saddam has been caught. The US has just gotten a substantial boost in image with the Iraqi people. The positive events in Iraq have also been underreported over the last eight months. All the news media can report about is bombings, US casualties, etc. Nobody wants to hear about running water, electricity, and people getting jobs and food. Bad news sells. At least, that's how their formula works. I would prefer to see some more honest reporting of things. Time and time again I hear of opinion polls where Iraqi people see things looking up, but they are swept under the table. You'd never know any of it from watching the television or reading the news papers. Maybe they should let the Iraqis speak about how they feel instead of having media conglomerates speak for them, but then, seeing that Iraqi man shouting "Death to Saddam Hussein" over and over on national TV provides a rather raw example. One year ago nobody dare say such things. Maybe now, with Saddam caught, the resistance will lose some of its reason to fight, especially when he was found cowering in a hole in the ground. I find that a fitting enough turnabout for this man, going from living in lavish palaces to hiding in a cellar, relentlessly hunted for months on end. Maybe now he finally understands how the people he oppressed felt. The exalted have truly been humbled this day.
I will maintain a cautious optimism about this. I will certainly be praying for Iraqi people to see more prosperous times after this. They certainly seem to be rejoicing over this. I see no reason to not share in their jubilation.
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Devlar
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I doubt anyone can come out and say damnit Saddam got caught, oh no. He was a brutal dictator, but I think its only fitting to remind people of who put him in the position to be so (Granted you can't really blame the US citizens as much as their government NSA mainly and CIA). That's not the point really, for the Iraqis today is a day when the great boogieman has been thrown out the window and no longer becomes a relevant oppressor. For the US its a day when they have to realize that they can no longer use the boogieman as a legitimate excuse for not ensuring the basic neccessities of life for the average Iraqi. Its a two sided sword
As for good news from Iraq, there hasn't been any media coverage of it since there hasn't been much to cover. The media gets a great kick from filming dancing people but for most Iraqis they have nothing to dance about when their water and electricity is still off and they are living off of the international community's handouts. If the US doesn't get into high gear and replace those things it blew up during the shock and awe campaign which included a few water treatment plants and some power stations it cannot expect people to support them. Its like the issue of Post-Materialism and Materialism, people can only worry about the quality of their government when they have enough resources to sustain themselves. Survival comes first
As for the resistance that's a totally different issue, those weren't bathists fighters, Sadam was found without a phone, fax or any other communication equipment. To say he was behind the attacks is nonsense, since if he was coordinating attacks by word of mouth he would have been caught in hours. Its just Islamic militants who cannot pick a fight with Israel (since they are well entrenched defensively), who come to Iraq to pick a fight with the US since they are still overstretched and vulnerable and an ally of Israel. The shooting won't stop because Saddam has been caught, what the US needs to worry about is having the average Iraqi begin to see the US coalition as more of an occupier than a liberator, if that happens its over.
I really hope the US doesn't screw this up since the human cost will be large to say the least. So as much as I know this wasn't for the benefit of the Iraqi people (See Dubya's 2000 Presidencial Debate line about Rwanda and sending troops into places where the US has no national interests), I really hope the succeede
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Hedhunta
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devlar: although it is rarely reported, electricity, sewage, water, etc utilities, health care(doctors get payed around $360 a month(i think) compared to the $16 under saddam).. and especially education are WAY up compared to under saddam.. im looking for the NYtimes article i read on it on their website.. if i have to ill scan the one i have in..
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Devlar
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Pre-Gulf War Saddam or Post-Gulf War Saddam
Iraq was the richest arab country in the region before the 1992 Gulf War
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Woodsman
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Saddam was in power for many years before any us agencys assisted him in the Iraq/Iran war. To say the united states put him in power ( and it often is) is nonesense. Secondly i dont see how you could say Iraq was the wealthiest country in the arab world before the 1992 war i think you'l find Saudi Arabia to have been far wealthier even before the first gulf war.
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« Last Edit: 2003-12-15, 02:26 by Woodsman »
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Hedhunta
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Pre-Gulf War Saddam or Post-Gulf War Saddam
Iraq was the richest arab country in the region before the 1992 Gulf War err.. well either way u spin it doctors were never payed anywhere near $360 under ANY version of saddams reign... he dont give a shit about the country, he just wanted to build palaces and statues of himself.. |
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Devlar
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Saddam was in power for many years before any us agencys assisted him in the Iraq/Iran war.
What? Is this what they feed you kids in school these days? He may have been in politics but he didn't become a dictator until 1979 which was with the support of the NSA and the CIA. The helicopters, the chemical weapons and the arms he got for the Iran/Iraq was was a different story, but Saddam was pitched in washington during his accent as a stablizing factor for the middle east, and was given financial support because of it.
Secondly i dont see how you could say Iraq was the wealthiest country in the arab world before the 1992 war i think you'l find Saudi Arabia to have been far wealthier even before the first gulf war.
Guess I should have inserted the Per Capita in there for clarification purposes. Saudi Arabia is the richest country in the region but something like 3% of the population control 90% of the wealth (this isn't exact, its either 90 or 80, I'd have to check the database for the exact numbers)
he dont give a shit about the country, he just wanted to build palaces and statues of himself..
Which also isn't entirely correct. I have a professor who graduated from the University of Bagdad, he has no love for Saddam but he will admit that he kept the country well fed and fairly industrialized until the first gulf war. You'll never paint an accurate picture of someone if you use one color to paint them.
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Woodsman
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school taught me that Saddam was the #2 man when the bath party took power in 1968 the #1 man being Ahmad Hassan al-Bakr which was what got him to the #1 spot in 79 not this giant amount of american funding you seem to want to believe. (ive been unable to find any credible sorce that supports your theory that the united states is responsible for saddam taking power) we are of course guilty of supporting him during the Iraq/Iran war (thinking him the lesser of two evils at the time)
How ever higher the standard of living might have been for Iraq in conparison to its nieghbors you cant possibly believe that any of that was saddam's doing. Lets not forget despite how things might have been in Baghdad or Tikrit people were still straving to death in iraq before the gulf war and there was plenty of money to feed them with even afterward but Saddam chose to spend it on himself. No matter how much you the arab and the european world might want to blame all of iraq's proublems on the united states you still seem to completely unwilling to acknowledge that perhaps Saddam might be responsible for some of them. you ignore the fact that we would have to fight the war 100 times over to kill the same amount of Iraqi civilians that Saddam has killed since he took power but oh thats right i forgot were evil americans and everything is our fault my mistake.
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Devlar
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ive been unable to find any credible sorce that supports your theory that the united states is responsible for saddam taking powerThere is quite a bit of it in the recently declassified National Security Archive Electronic Briefing Book No. 82. It was very much tied to the support of stability and anti-Iran in the region How ever higher the standard of living might have been for Iraq in conparison to its nieghbors you cant possibly believe that any of that was saddam's doing.Saddam helped industrialize the country, you blindly want to ignore the fact that he did do some things well for a simple blind hatred, that's your choice. Suit yourself but you only limit your own knowledge of a situation by doing so. Its the same as painting every dictator as being some icons of evil, yet somehow there are still people who think Hitler was great, that Stalin was great or even that Andrew Jackson was great, all of them being genocidal maniacs. Lets not forget despite how things might have been in Baghdad or Tikrit people were still straving to death in iraq before the gulf war and there was plenty of money to feed them with even afterward but Saddam chose to spend it on himself. I'm not going to argue that he didn't help but the US and the UN helped create that situation with sanctions before that time the average Iraqi could feed himself without the need for handouts from Saddam. No matter how much you the arab and the european world might want to blame all of iraq's proublems on the united states you still seem to completely unwilling to acknowledge that perhaps Saddam might be responsible for some of them.Are you even reading the words I write down or just putting words into my mouth in your magic happytime dream world? Where oh where have I absolved anyone? In fact I think I've condemned everyone involved Also please refrain from giving me that whole oppressed United States, because they all hate us. I have nothing against the people of the United States, your government on the other hand are a bunch of tyrannical asses who now want to claim they went into Iraq to free the Iraqi people when earlier they said... "Just three years ago, then-presidential candidate George Bush told ABCNEWS' Sam Donaldson he would oppose such use of American force. Even in the case of another Rwanda ? where hundreds of thousands were killed by tribal warfare in 1994 ? Bush said he "would work with world organizations and encourage them to move, but I would not commit our troops." "The president must set clear parameters as to where troops ought to be used and when," Bush said at the time. "We should not send our troops to stop ethnic cleansing and genocide in nations outside our strategic interest.""http://abcnews.go.com/sections/nightline/W...ary_030707.htmlOh yes it was all about the Iraqi people. If George Bush got up in 2001 after 9/11 and said to the world that he wanted to dipose a dictator the American Government supported to ensure human rights, and then ratified the Rome Charter. I would be 100% behind this war, but guess what, I don't like people who play both sides, who say one thing then do another. That is ultimately why I supported Afghanistan but can not support Iraq
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Woodsman
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im well aware that while Saddam was in power the roads were paved and the lights were on but i think you'l find that was more the result of the efforts of other people in his goverment rather than his concern for the welfare of his people.
I never claimed the united states was "oppressed" just that much of the world would rather hold us responsible for its own proublems than take responsiblity themselves. i I wont deny the american goverment has made mistakes in its foreign policy (not removing Saddam in the first gulf war being one of them) but removing the bath party from Iraq was not one of them. I would have prefered the goverment just out and said "Saddam is a tyrant so were getting rid of him" but of course it didnt happen like that. It will take time but i really believe Iraq has a better future now than it did a year ago that is my justifcation for the war and i dont need the "international comunity" to agree with me.
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« Last Edit: 2003-12-15, 05:26 by Woodsman »
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Phoenix
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You know, it's great to watch an argument and not be in it for a change. 
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I fly into the night, on wings of fire burning bright...
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Woodsman
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well the funs over pho im bailing before it becomes a flame war. wouldnt want to be a hypocrite.
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