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Author Topic: Mr. Ignoramus (Beware of Truth)  (Read 24298 times)
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games keeper
 

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« Reply #20 on: 2005-06-24, 21:49 »

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By the way, games keeper, your insight and brilliant post once again truly aids the readers of this thread.
I do what i can  Slipgate - Ownage
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Phoenix
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« Reply #21 on: 2005-06-24, 22:11 »

Broken input for starters, that and I really just don't like verbal communication.  I find the keyboard easier.  I'm also much less likely to miss someone's text as I am to miss someone's spoken words, as I often have to leave the computer and return to it many times during a chat session, or I'm trying to do other things at the same time, which I'm seldom good at anyway.
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Moshman
 
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Yarg!

« Reply #22 on: 2005-06-24, 22:53 »

That's true, but there is a special feeling when you are actually talking to someone.
*thinks special thoughts
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Tabun
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« Reply #23 on: 2005-06-25, 00:26 »

Phoenix: I still do not have the feeling I was being hostile.
I don't pretend to know Washu. At all, in fact - yet I do know what his posts portray, and since I haven't anything else to go on, that is what I'm going on. You'll note I always accept the possibility of being wrong. Part of my 'quest' was to find out if others admit to that possibility, or that they truly believe their ideas to be 100% rock-solidly correct. If that is the case, then my description, which continues to be misread as an insult, is quite accurate and should be considered a compliment. (comparable to: "you have an unshakeable faith in God" - "Why yes I do, thanks")

Although my posts probably won't show it, I respect Washu's beliefs and ideas, as much as the next - again, if I understand them correctly. What probably sets me off and makes it all sound hostile may be the fact that his lines in many posts (even some who have no relation to this kind of subject at all) sound quite disrespectful of practically any other belief. This is part of the strong-believer vs. the infidels syndrome. It just sounds like a kick in the teeth, albeit probably unintended. Even now, the arrogance of the Missions of old (intended or not, good-willed or not) is unsettling. Almost as much as the Jihad (in any of the more reasonable explanations, that is, otherwise it is a bit more than 'unsettling')

One thing that surprises me, is how often something has to be dragged into discussions when it is obvious that it will either have to be ignored, or result in disruption of the discussion. We are all prophets by nature, but we also have to deal with the fact that our answer will not satisfy others, and where our answer leads the thread away from what is desired for the community. (Arguably, this is exactly where any self-respecting thread in CC wants to be)

I'll not deny that I am in this probably more of a hypocrite than I want to be (which is, at all Slipgate - Wink) - but so be it. I'm sorry for that, and I'll be more mindful of it in the future - this has been part of something I wished to try, but I'm afraid it's hard to explain. Even if I'd understand clearly enough to find the right words to describe it, I'm sure none of you could be bothered, so let's leave it at that.

It is obvious that at least my own reactions were predictable - that's the very reason I fight them - or let go of the subject, which is sometimes the same thing. I guarantee you that it will have been the last time though, human nature or no. I saw it as a continued exploration, but it apparantly ended up being an attack - that too is reason for me to take my distance in some cases, like I used to do before the summer of 2004. I have at least learned part of what I set out to learn, and I believe I haven't hurt anyone too badly in the process.

No-one has a need for hostility, whether intended or not - warn me if I do something similar later on. But be wary not to explain things as attacks, when they are neutral observations.
« Last Edit: 2005-06-25, 15:28 by Tabun » Logged

Tabun ?Morituri Nolumus Mori?
scalliano
 

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« Reply #24 on: 2005-06-25, 04:47 »

I was raised as a Catholic, and although I don't pay very much heed to it now the whole Mary-worshipping thing is always the easy target (that and the Inquisition but I digress).

I don't see myself or anyone else as infallible (judge not lest ye be judged), but Washu, your views seem a little fire-and-brimstone to me. My reply to your first post can be summed up in one word:

DINOSAURS.

I rest my case.
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Moshman
 
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Yarg!

« Reply #25 on: 2005-06-25, 05:01 »

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DINOSAURS

What?
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Lordbane2110
 
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« Reply #26 on: 2005-06-25, 10:44 »

since i'm neither Christian or Catholic, i'm not sure of what to say about this.

Faith is a lot like many things, those that belief and those that don't.  i don't thing the non believers or the devout should have a go at each other. sure they have differences of opinion, but that's all it should be an opinion.

I have said many times that i believe in the scientific method of evolution, however i will not knock anybody that believes in a higher power, faith in many ways no matter what you have faith in is a good thing.  it's comforting, it helps you maintain a balance and it at the end of the day it gives people hope

if washu wishes to try to convert people here, well that's his choice and i won't try to stop him.  however as for talking to other people i have no qualms about that i have a microphone and don't mind listening to the problems of others as long as at the end of the day, they respect the fact i may not agree with everything they hold dear or believe in.

however, i do think and bare in mind this is only an opinion it is in no way trying to influence anybody here, but surely we all have a common intrest, should we really be at each others throats?. I just find it sad when a group of people with so much in common tries to push each other apart than embrace the similarities

I have spoken

please think about what i have said, as it would be sad indeed for us to come to blows about this.
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Moshman
 
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Yarg!

« Reply #27 on: 2005-06-25, 11:57 »

Convert is a word I wouldn't use.
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Lopson
 

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« Reply #28 on: 2005-06-25, 12:39 »

You try to establish an influence.
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Phoenix
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« Reply #29 on: 2005-06-25, 16:48 »

Tab:  I detected an edge of anger, or at least annoyance in your original response.  Perhaps I was misreading you, but my intent was only to offer up my observations and let people go with them, as well as offer a little advice to Washu from past experience.  I don't think anyone is out for blood here, and I don't see any reason why you should silence any more than Washu should.  Everyone has a right to talk, your thoughts are as valuable as anyone elses.  Why repress them?

Scalliano:  What do dinosaurs have to do with this, or are we expected to just "know" somehow what you're talking about?
« Last Edit: 2005-06-25, 16:48 by Phoenix » Logged


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Tabun
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« Reply #30 on: 2005-06-25, 17:00 »

I wouldn't do myself so short as to consider my thoughts not valuable or less valuable than others, that's not why I would stop posting them. I just know there are cases when there is nothing to be achieved in addressing some people within a given context, regarding a given subject. Annoyance would build up while comments are selectively ignored, and opinions clash or are misunderstood.
A good sign of some kind of limit being reached is when posts contain messages like 'if you think about it, you will come to such and such conclusion' or 'think about it for a minute' etc. If somehow people assume others to not be thinking, or will not acknowledge that it is actually the thinking they are doing that brings them to different conclusions, that is pretty much a sure sign of an irresolvable clash. At least irresolvable on an Internet Messageboard?.

If I think there is something valuable I can contribute, I certainly won't be stopped by the fear of appearing inconsiderate. If there's nothing to gain for anyone, then it is wasted energy and effort, and I have plenty of things to do which make my time and energy too precious to throw out the window. I'm sure others will feel the same about it.

(I do not consider this post to be a waste of any kind Slipgate - Smile)
« Last Edit: 2005-06-25, 17:02 by Tabun » Logged

Tabun ?Morituri Nolumus Mori?
Phoenix
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« Reply #31 on: 2005-06-25, 17:06 »

Well, typically phrases like "stop and think" or "if you think" are just part of normal speech.  At least, that's how I'm used to hearing them.  It's the same as saying "Consider this" or "here's food for thought".  I prefer to see it as an invitation for further reflection, not a slap in the face or an accusation of lack of thought.  Grammatical difference, perhaps?
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Woodsman
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« Reply #32 on: 2005-06-25, 17:08 »

I knew this was a loaded topic.
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Lopson
 

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« Reply #33 on: 2005-06-25, 17:14 »

Even when a person comes into a conclusion, he/she has to hear other people's conclusions, allowing them to reach new conclusions. SO I think when a person says "Think about it", I don't think that that conversation reaches an end or a crash]/I].

EDIT :
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I knew this was a loaded topic.

That was totally unnecessary, now wasn't it?

« Last Edit: 2005-06-25, 17:16 by [KruzadeR] » Logged

Tabun
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« Reply #34 on: 2005-06-25, 17:22 »

It certainly has connotations that indicate that the other is not 'doing the thinking', to my eyes/ears.
Let me give you an example of what I mean:

X has an explanation A of a particular situation
Y has an explanation B of the same situation

X presents A, after which Y presents B in the following way: "If you think about it, you will see that it is B, not A."

I cannot help but read that as an almost insulting way of arguing. No evidence to support claims is given, other than the dubious idea that if you use your brain, you will see it my way. I think wording like 'here's food for thought' followed by actual food for thought is by no means the same thing.
« Last Edit: 2005-06-25, 17:23 by Tabun » Logged

Tabun ?Morituri Nolumus Mori?
Phoenix
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« Reply #35 on: 2005-06-25, 17:35 »

It's your last example I was referring to.  I understand what you mean about the other mode of discussion, if you can call it that.  It's far to adversarial for my tastes.
« Last Edit: 2005-06-25, 17:35 by Phoenix » Logged


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« Reply #36 on: 2005-06-25, 18:44 »

The dinosaur thing is about evolution.

why does the bible not mention dinosaurs? (or does it?)

I tried looking for that round-earth thing in the bible, but couldn't find it. I also tried looking to see if the bible said how many planets there were. no luck. If anybody knows if the bible mentions this I'd be plased to know.

I'm not anti-christ by the way. The universe is nearly infinite, and has room for far more than one idea of truth. Its just when people start hurting each other over God that it pisses me off.


 Slipgate - Off Topic  its an intresting thing that we can predict about each other when we know so little about each other. Its BECAUSE we know so little that we can do it. Theres not a host of other things like speach and body language etc getting in the way, I believe.

 Slipgate - Off Topic Someone please tell me how to change my title from the dumb thing.

Note, maybe we can predict each other so well as we have no free will. theres no test for free will that I know.  Thumbs up!
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Tabun
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« Reply #37 on: 2005-06-25, 19:12 »

shambler:

I've sent you a PM about that member-title a while ago, shambler - I didn't want to respond about it in a thread like this one, but I guess I have to ;]

P.S.
If the deterministic view would be correct (mind you, not nescessarily a fatalistic one), and there is thus no free will, everything you do - including 'going against your will' - is set. If there is free will, you can never rule out determinism - we cannot go back and prove that we can make a different decision. I don't know of any test either. We can only theorize about it (esp. about the problem of the first cause), which ofcourse doesn't mean the latter is not enjoyable, and there's always quantum mechanics for those who dislike pure philosophy :]
« Last Edit: 2005-06-25, 19:26 by Tabun » Logged

Tabun ?Morituri Nolumus Mori?
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« Reply #38 on: 2005-06-25, 20:23 »

Quote from: shambler
The dinosaur thing is about evolution.

why does the bible not mention dinosaurs? (or does it?)
That's a subject all of it's own, but I think a good place to start is the book of Job, chapter 40, verse 15.  If you don't have a bible handy, here's a quick link: http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Job/Job040.html  Read it and decide for yourself what it's referring to, just mind the description and the context that God is showing Job something to humble and strike awe into him, a creation Job has obviously never seen before.  Hell, read the whole book of Job if you really want proper context of what's going on.  I offer this only as food for thought, take what you will from it.

As for dinosaurs having anything to do with evolution, they neither prove nor disprove any of man's theories, either from the evolutionist point of view or the creationist point of view.  They just lived their lives, and departed from this world at the appointed time.  Frankly I'm getting tired of them being used as ammunition in highly opinionated debates that do them absolutely no justice at all.
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shambler
 
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« Reply #39 on: 2005-06-25, 20:59 »

I agree. there are dinosaurs in the bible. When I hav time I will read Job.

I don't believe in free will at the moment. but I may next week.
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