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jess
 
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« on: 2006-05-04, 17:50 »

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12615601/

Moussaoui?s mother Aicha El Wafi, pressed for her country to intervene. ?Now he is going to die in little doses,? she said. ?He is going to live like a rat in a hole. What for? They are so cruel.?

Right and 3000 people murdered on 9/11 wasn't cruel? gfg
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Tabun
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« Reply #1 on: 2006-05-04, 18:35 »

Very good, an eye for an eye! (as long as you're not counting too accurately)

I wonder though, would you expect a mother to say: "Well, let's hang him, he's an SOB anyway. See if I care."?
« Last Edit: 2006-05-04, 18:36 by Tabun » Logged

Tabun ?Morituri Nolumus Mori?
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« Reply #2 on: 2006-05-04, 19:16 »

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Moussaoui got a fair trial and the jury spared his life, ?which is something that he evidently wasn?t willing to do for innocent American citizens.?
I'd hardly count this as an eye for an eye, Tab.  Moussaoui is getting life in prison.  In essense, I think it's the best thing we could have done - deny him his martyrdom that he so desperately wants, while remaining above his level.  He wants to die for Allah?  Then he'll die on Allah's terms, not his own.  Let's see how strong his faith and ideals are after he's been in a maximum security facility for 20+ years.  He's going to have to prove himself to his god the hard way - by living.

As for his mother, think carefully about what she said. Most people are relieved when their son or daughter is not ordered to be executed.  It might give you an insight into the alternative she would prefer.
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Tabun
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« Reply #3 on: 2006-05-04, 20:44 »

That's exactly what I meant - she'd rather have seen him die, because she loves him. Talk about culture shock. I won't pretend to understand it (being neither Arab or Muslim), but it's obvious what she would prefer, no insight required there.
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Tabun ?Morituri Nolumus Mori?
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« Reply #4 on: 2006-05-05, 03:50 »

I say keep him in the best health possible, make him live as long as we can.
It sounds a bit ass-backwards but if that's the last thing him and his family wants, the rest of his life should be as long, painful, and shamed as possible...
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Woodsman
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« Reply #5 on: 2006-05-05, 05:12 »

Quote from: Tabun

I wonder though, would you expect a mother to say: "Well, let's hang him, he's an SOB anyway. See if I care."?
Perhaps maybe she would say " Oh damn i didnt bother telling him terrorism could get him sent to prision when he was a child. Ive failed as a mother.".
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shambler
 
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« Reply #6 on: 2006-05-05, 14:25 »

What must be done is set an example to the other idiots.
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Tabun
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« Reply #7 on: 2006-05-05, 16:22 »

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Perhaps maybe she would say " Oh damn i didnt bother telling him terrorism could get him sent to prision when he was a child. Ive failed as a mother."

She would have to have been raised a Westener to even be able to consider it that way (aside from having to figure out what 'prision' is Slipgate - Wink). Even if such a feat of un-culturally-backward (ie. subjective, individual, relativistic) thinking were possible, it's doubtful that it would happen. How many people do you know that are able to look at themselves critically, who are able to connect the dots when it comes to their faults and the manifold negative results that follow? It's not something that ever caught on.
Anyway, as long as the lass doesn't attempt to set up a prison-break, she can show her grief in any way she pleases if it's up to me.

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What must be done is set an example to the other idiots.

Perhaps, but I'm not so sure it's working. 'Examples' aren't really doing the trick, so far. They surely help in setting/feeding some bad blood and grudges, but I don't think they're working as a deterrent.

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.. deny him his martyrdom that he so desperately wants, while remaining above his level.

That's where we agree, mostly on the latter part. The 'remaining above his level' is what counts for me, although I have a feeling that if (a significant) part of the reasoning behind an act is to make it as bad as possible to their standards (however much out of sync with one's own), there's something to be said for deducting points on the 'moral highground'-score here. IMO it beats a public lynching ofcourse, or blowing up some buildings/innocent people in retaliation, but that should go without saying.
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Tabun ?Morituri Nolumus Mori?
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« Reply #8 on: 2006-05-05, 18:35 »

I don't agree that thinking that is individualistic, relativistic, and subjective is un-culturally-backward as you put it.  Most examples I've seen tend to be culturally bankrupt.  Far too much emphasis is placed on the self, and fulfilling selfish wants.  What actually makes a culture a culture is lost in the ever shifting lack of focus of the individual who cannot define or adhere to anything concrete.  I've also found it's far too easy to justify bad behavior like lying, stealing, and any other manner of destructive actions based on moral relativism.  Ever hear the phrase "If it feels good, do it?"  How about "Do whatever's right for you?"  Any desert creature can tell you that if you choose to live among the shifting dunes sooner or later you'll be buried in a sandstorm.  Now if you simply meant engaging in the process of self-examination, questioning what you've been told, and using your brain, well yes, absolutely in agreement with you there.

Now regarding Moussaoui, If I wanted to make it as bad as possible for their standards I'd demand he be fed pork in every meal, forced to use pages from the Koran as toilet paper, and I'd play Jewish hymns and prayers over a loudspeaker.  That's making it as bad as possible while just barely remaining above his level, if you want to "keep score".  I think we can behave a bit better than that though.
Slipgate - Wink
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Tabun
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« Reply #9 on: 2006-05-05, 20:03 »

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I don't agree that thinking that is individualistic, relativistic, and subjective is un-culturally-backward as you put it.

I did not say that list of properties isn't indicative of backwardness in its own right. Just not the kind that I would call 'culturally-backward' in this context. My point was merely that it's a cultural trait to 'sacrifice yourself for the greater good', and for that to be 'the highest good'. Before anyone can call that into doubt, there must be some room for 'moral individuality'. That's all I meant - I wasn't giving an evaluation of moral values, just explaining to Woods why I think his hunch about what the mother would say is incorrect.
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Tabun ?Morituri Nolumus Mori?
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« Reply #10 on: 2006-05-05, 20:42 »

Understood, but I don't think we're talking about people sacrificing themselves for anyone's good.  That whole "70 virgins in heaven and get to live like a king" sounds like selfishness to me.  Martyring one's self in the name of Allah by blowing yourself up is also a "legacy" thing for these people.  "Oh yeah, that Rashid, he took out 100 infidels!"  I prefer what Jesus said, that the greatest love is that a man lay down his life for his friends.  I think there's a big difference between taking a bullet or a knife for one person, and going out in a "blaze of glory".  I think people like Mohammad Atta are praised by their own kind more for how many people they murdered than for the fact that they "died for Islam."  We don't hear about praises being sung for the terrorists the US has killed that didn't manage to take anyone out along the way.  If they could have killed those people on 9/11 and not died in the process they'd be praised even more and they'd have followers the likes of Osama couldn't muster himself.  The fact is that suicide bombers are nothing but weapons to these people.  Their humanity is totally inconsequential to their own leaders so long as they do their job.

Now I think part of what you're saying in regards to culture may be concerning the idea that the "needs of the many outweighs the needs of the one," and that people are often taught that they should sacrifice "for the common good" and give up liberties and property, what have you.  I don't agree with that, it's a coerced mentality.  I think people should reach the conclusion on their own that they should help their fellow creature because it's the right thing and the noble thing to do, not because it's part of some set of cultural expectations or socio-economic governmental policy.  If they believe a god or diety wants them to give of themselves I'm fine with that too, they're still doing good because they believe it to be good.  Just so long as they don't start doing evil and calling it good.  That's the problem we have with guys like Moussaoui.  They murder in the name of their god, and think they're doing what's right by murdering.  Murder is murder, for whatever reason.  The fact that we end up waging wars to stop these kinds of people just compounds the tragedy.
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Woodsman
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« Reply #11 on: 2006-05-05, 20:44 »

The man is a martyr whether he dies or not if thats how people want to see him. We could hang him, lock him up or let him go it wouldn't make any difference to the kooks he represents ( i mean really these are the kind of people who believe no Jews died on 911 ).  You cant reason with with radicals its that simple. You heard the same argument over Timothy Mcvay. People were afraid radical right wing groups would turn him into some kind of martyr figure after he was executed ( and I'm sure some have ) but they would have complained about his ?unjust imprisonment? if he had been given life in prison. Moussaoui gets his Martyrdom either way no matter what sentence you give him hes still going to get those 72 virgins.
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