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McDeth: We find ourselves in agreement then. I did not know your perspective or intent regarding the reference to Amalek, so I appreciate the elaboration. It might have saved on some verbosity on my part had you expounded prior, but I like to squawk so no harm done either way. I was also not intent on assuming you meant Israel was engaging in genocide, but the passage I quoted raised the possibility that some might interpret it that way, hence my own exposition. I'm sure you understand.
Now regarding where they're stockpiling weapons, a big part of the problem is they've dug many underground tunnels all through the region, and as you said, many weapons caches are under or in mosques, or under or in other civilian infrastructure. There's a reason they do that. They use the civilian population as human shields so that the civilian deathtoll from any retaliatory action can be used for political leverage with the world's bleeding hearts, and also to incite other Muslims to anger. See, to the Islamic extremist, any Muslim that dies in the fight for world conversion is a martyr, and it's every Muslim's duty to fight and die. Those who are unwilling to fight aren't true Muslims anyway, and like the infidels, need to be weeded out. That's why, to them, hiding behind civilians is a legitimate tactic. Hiding weapons in mosques is legitimate too because they feel they're fighting a Jihad, and the weapons are part of this "holy" war. Killing civilians is definitely a legitimate tactic (to them) since every non-Muslim is an infidel, and they must either convert or be slain. Islam also has a tendency to knock down other people's holy sites and build their own on top of it. Once a mosque goes up, it never comes down according to the dictates of Dar al Islam, and since attacking a mosque is considered an offence against all of Islam... well you see the problem there. The world must respect Islam's holy sites, but Islam respects only Islam.
Woods: Who said anything about diplomacy being a solution to this problem?
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« Last Edit: 2006-07-24, 03:16 by Phoenix »
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McDeth
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McDeth: We find ourselves in agreement then. I did not know your perspective or intent regarding the reference to Amalek, so I appreciate the elaboration. It might have saved on some verbosity on my part had you expounded prior, but I like to squawk so no harm done either way. I was also not intent on assuming you meant Israel was engaging in genocide, but the passage I quoted raised the possibility that some might interpret it that way, hence my own exposition. I'm sure you understand.
I have a pretty good talent for not explaining myself. Anyway, I have the greatest respect for Isreal and the Jewish community. After seeing Isreal fight, that respect has never been higher. I'm tired of people bitching about "they took Palestine away from the Palestinians." spork off I say. It was Isreal before it was Palestine so stick that in your hooka and puff on it. |
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Woodsman
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I think the problem with dealing with situations like these is modern mans need to see every view point. Just this morning in the Sanfrancisco chronicles opinion page i once again saw the sons of liberty compared to Hizbulla . Now i understand they were both political activist groups who were violent in achieving their political objectives, but the sons of liberty never blew themselves up on a school bus to prove a point, they targeted government institutions and individuals to archive a specific political end. Hizbulla on the other targets civilian centers with the specific intention of instilling fear in the civilian populace to archive a kind of religious and ethnic purging.
Why do we shrink from calling such people terrorists?. Why must we call them ?alleged militants? Why do we feel the need to consider the opinions of people whos stated goal is to whipe a nation and people from the face of the earth? Did we ask Hitler what the root of his anger was when he swept across europe? Did we consider his feelings?.
They more we indulge violent fundamentalist groups with our overflowing tolerance and understanding the more vunerable we become. Tolerance should only be applied to those who tolerate others. Lebanon would get a lot more pity out of me if they hadnt ellected these lunatics into their government ( yes Hizbulla does hold offices in the Lebanese government) if they chose to encourage and facilitate terrorism then they must be prepared to face to consquences. If you dont want your house blown up, dont let crazed terror mongers hide in your basement.
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« Last Edit: 2006-07-24, 18:47 by Woodsman »
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scalliano
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I think the problem with dealing with situations like these is modern mans need to see every view point. Just this morning in the Sanfrancisco chronicles opinion page i once again saw the sons of liberty compared to Hizbulla . Now i understand they were both political activist groups who were violent in achieving their political objectives, but the sons of liberty never blew themselves up on a school bus to prove a point, they targeted government institutions and individuals to archive a specific political end. Hizbulla on the other targets civilian centers with the specific intention of instilling fear in the civilian populace to archive a kind of religious and ethnic purging.
Why do we shrink from calling such people terrorists?. Why must we call them ?alleged militants? Why do we feel the need to consider the opinions of people whos stated goal is to whipe a nation and people from the face of the earth? Did we ask Hitler what the root of his anger was when he swept across europe? Did we consider his feelings?.
They more we indulge violent fundamentalist groups with our overflowing tolerance and understanding the more vunerable we become. Tolerance should only be applied to those who tolerate others. Lebanon would get a lot more pity out of me if they hadnt ellected these lunatics into their government ( yes Hizbulla does hold offices in the Lebanese government) if they chose to encourage and facilitate terrorism then they must be prepared to face to consquences. If you dont want your house blown up, dont let crazed terror mongers hide in your basement. Seriously, though, what were they gonna do? Lift anyone they thought might be a terrorist? Britain and the US have already tried that, it doesn't work.  That's how Juan-Charles de Menezez got shot. There's no way of telling who's in Hezbollah and who isn't. As for letting them stand for government, there's no real way that they can stop them. The whole idea of inclusion was in the vain hope that Hezbollah could be tamed. We now know that not to be the case, but ultimately democracy has its flaws too. Besides, Sinn Fein hold offices in Northern Ireland (or at least they did until the Assembly got suspended again, now no-one does)  Israel has every right to be pissed off, but why are they bombing Lebanese infrastructure? AFAIC their response has been over-agressive, unjust and, frankly, as inhumane as those they seek to destroy. The civilian bodycount is rising every day that this crisis continues. Perhaps it's because, ultimately, the West has got their back ... |
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« Last Edit: 2006-07-24, 20:54 by scalliano »
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PSN ID: scalliano
The Arena knows no gender, colour or creed, only skill.
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Phoenix
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Israel has every right to be pissed off, but why are they bombing Lebanese infrastructure? I thought I had made that clear already. You do read my posts, right?AFAIC their response has been over-agressive, unjust and, frankly, as inhumane as those they seek to destroy. So what do you propose they do then? If what Israel is doing is wrong in your view, then in your view, what is the correct course of action? |
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scalliano
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Yup, that's me
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You really do not want to know my answer. Seriously. But, since you ask ... Pulling out of Gaza would be a start. [/sarcasm] Terrorists taking hostages is nothing new. Negotiation has worked in the past even if it does take time, and there's always the option of finding out where the hostages are and storming the place. You take a risk either way, though It goes without saying that plan B is riskier (not that Russia seems to care much  ). BTW Sorry, I do read your posts, it's just been a long day  |
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« Last Edit: 2006-07-25, 00:43 by scalliano »
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PSN ID: scalliano
The Arena knows no gender, colour or creed, only skill.
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McDeth
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You really do not want to know my answer. Seriously. But, since you ask ... Pulling out of Gaza would be a start. [/sarcasm] Terrorists taking hostages is nothing new. Negotiation has worked in the past even if it does take time, and there's always the option of finding out where the hostages are and storming the place. You take a risk either way, though It goes without saying that plan B is riskier (not that Russia seems to care much ). BTW Sorry, I do read your posts, it's just been a long day The reason Isreal is taking the offensive is they are tired of negociations, tired of this pacifist Chamberlainism, and tired of getting their dicks blown off because of it. I don't blame them. These bastards keep harassing Isreal and it is high time they did something about it. This is a very simplicistic analogy, but bare with me here. Remember the son of a bitch behind you in grade school that kept poking you and poking you and no matter how much you appealed to him to stop, he kept doing it. What did you eventually do? You halled off and hit 'em in the gob. Now really, what did you think would happen if these terrorist cells kept this up? Frankly I'm proud of Isreal, very proud. They are doing an effective job taking care of the situation and damned if I care if their civilians get offed. They didn't care when Isreali citizens or (dare I say it) American citizens got killed. You want to talk about innocent bystanders, well there they were. I can tell you one thing, they weren't quartering terrorists or storing weapons in their places of worship or their homes. |
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scalliano
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If the British government had taken the same stance when the IRA began bombing London back in the 70's as Israel are now with Hezbollah I probably would not be sitting here typing this right now. Hell, I may never have been born, what with the civil war and all ...
The so-called "state of Israel" was artificially installed by the West after WW2 with total disregard for those who were living in Palestine at the time. That is one of the big factors as to why there's been so much tension in the Middle East for so long.
The general consensus I'm getting here is: "Sure, let the Israeli government do whatever the hell they like for as long as they like and stuff the consequences. It's only a couple of thousand Lebanese anyway. Besides they have the apparently unconditional backing of the US if things get REALLY hairy."
Hate to break the news, but NO act of terrorism constitutes a carte blanche. What Israel is now doing will serve only to make an already diabolical situation EVEN WORSE for all involved.
Note also that Lebanon themselves are not fighting back. It is not their war, yet they will suffer the greatest. Despite Israeli missiles apparently having deadly accurate guidance systems, they are still hitting hotels, shops and other areas full of innocent bystanders. What happens when they start using pre-emptive tactics like their US counterparts and go after the likes of Iran and Syria? That's just going to bring on WWIII so much quicker.
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PSN ID: scalliano
The Arena knows no gender, colour or creed, only skill.
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Phoenix
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I think you need to read a different set of history books. You do not understand Islam, you do not understand how these people think, and you do not know the full history of the region. Comparing this situation to the situation with the IRA illustrates this. The situations are entirely different. That being said, I'm not going to elaborate on what I know of Israel's history here, and what happened prior to and after the formation of Israel as a state. I'm not going to go into how the so-called Palestinians were treated by their "Arab brothers" after said formation of Israel, as opposed to the options Israel gave to them. If all you're interested in doing is jumping on the "let's blame Israel and the US" bandwagon, you've established that your thinking is entrenched and inflexible. I'm hoping that's not the case.
Now, why won't I elaborate, you may ask? You've demonstrated that you will not believe what I say, probably due to politics, and you've expressed this fact before in previous postings of opinion. You need third-party information to change your thinking on this. The question is whether or not you want the full story, or are content enough in your position that you don't care about the facts in favor of continuing with your position. If you care about understanding and being informed, I can assure you that there's a lot of information you're missing out on here. Since you disagree with me, and won't believe what I say regarding the history of the region, I invite you to do further research on your own and explore the history above and beyond what you currently think. Don't believe me? Fine. Read it for yourself. I would invite you to read the Jewish side of the story as well. What you're saying right now I could pick up off Al-Jazeera or any left-wing blog, so you've already got that side of the story.
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Woodsman
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At this point we can be pretty much sure that diplomacy is a dead horse between Israel and its Arab neighbors. No matter what territory they pull out of, no matter what militants they release its never going to be enough .The terrorists ( note i did not say freedom fighters or alleged militants) have stated many times they will never ever live peacefully with Israel. Lebanon and Palestine have both shown their support for terror by electing terrorist groups into their governments and by supporting acts of terrorism from their own homes. Until the Arab world realizes that it actually has to live with Israel there will never be peace. Hezbollah and Lebanon know exactly what they need to do to stop the Israeli attacks and they are hardly unreasonable demands. If they refuse to deliver they are shit out of luck. No amount of left wing ? oh the poor down trodden Muslim masses being oppressed by the evil hooked nosed Jews and the big bad west? nonsense is going to change anything.
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McDeth
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The so-called "state of Israel" was artificially installed by the West after WW2 with total disregard for those who were living in Palestine at the time. That is one of the big factors as to why there's been so much tension in the Middle East for so long.
Aside from the fact that they've been fighting for thousands of sporking years because of religious differences even when Isreal WAS a country in biblical times. I think you're missing the point completely. Even before they knew the west existed they were fighting. There has always been tension in the Middle East and there will always be tension in the Middle East. I can't give a detailed description of "why" because I don't know who begot who and who had a pissing contest with who's brother, but regardless this is a bunch of warring factions that know how to hold grudge. As secular as you seem to be I suppose the bible isn't a good source for arguement. I think you and I can agree on one thing, Western interference was a bad thing. I wish we never got involved in the Middle East, but we did. Now it's a mess. It appears Isreal is going to do it's best to clean it up. |
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scalliano
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Pho: For the record I studied the history of the Arab-Israeli conflict in school. And I passed. And yes, I think it's safe to assume that we are reading from different texts. What I stated above is my own interpretation. I don't bother with lefty stuff either as a lot of it IS balls. Nor am I simply jumping on the US-bashing bandwagon, other nations are implicated too (Britain to name but one). Also, my IRA reference was to point out just how ludicrous Israel's strategy is. Granted, the circumstances surrounding each are different, but my point was that no matter the situation, you can't just go gung-ho and blow the shit out of all and sundry. That makes you as bad as those you're trying to get at.
Yes there has always been unrest in the Middle East, but it was never a global threat until the West started meddling (as it does) and made an enemy out of practically the whole region.
McDeth: As for Israel "cleaning it up", I couldn't disagree more. Regardless of how well-placed Israel's intentions may be (and I'm not sold yet on that one either) the operation in Lebanon will indeed open up "the gates of Hell" in the region if the war in Iraq didn't already. And there's Condoleeza affirming the US's support for Israel, hoping that they can wipe out Hezbollah and create a "new Middle East". Successfully wiping out a terrorist organization is one thing, pissing off their mates in Tehran is another altogether.
I suppose I just value human life too much.
BTW Israel scored a direct hit on a UN observation post yesterday, killing four. Now it gets interesting ...
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PSN ID: scalliano
The Arena knows no gender, colour or creed, only skill.
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Phoenix
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Like I said. Most people don't know what war is because they've never seen a real, full-scale, unrestrained war. What Israel is doing right now is a hell of a lot less than what it COULD do, and I'm not even talking nukes. If you think Israel is behaving badly, then I'd ask you to consider what her neighbors TRIED to do in 1948, and several times after. I want to know why it is that nobody who likes to level blame at Israel and the US (and Brittain too, let's blame the whole bloody west for saving Europe from the Nazis while we're at it) EVER, EVER blames the Arabs for inviting their own troubles by picking a fight in the first place. If Hizbullah had not launched a sneak attack, killing 3 soldiers, kidnapping two, and firing their little rockets across the border, Israel would have left them the hell alone. Now, can we please move past the blame game?
The UN outpost getting hit is unfortunate, but this is war and people get killed. I'd hate to tell you how many civilians died in World War 2. War is SUPPOSED to be ugly. That's its best deterrent, but again I emphasize, once war becomes unavoidable, or battle engaged, you MUST win it, or your enemy just rearms and more blood is shed through prolonging the conflict than would have been shed through a quick and decisive victory. So yes, you CAN go blowing the crap out of all and sundry. THAT'S WHAT YOU DO IN A WAR! You win wars by killing people and breaking stuff. I'm sorry, but there's nothing else to it. You can try to not kill innocent people along the way, but you win wars by killing the other guy until he can't fight anymore. Period.
There's nothing wrong with valuing human life. I value all life. What, you think I'm a heartless bastard simply because I agree with strong tactics? I want a decisive end to the conflict so that this doesn't happen again. A ceasefire now would ensure it does. If Israel just took a few Hizbullah prisoners and shot a few of them in response to them kidnapping and killing soldiers, it would be perceived as a sign of weakness and would invite further attacks. Terrorists don't pick fights unless they think you're weak. A lot of Arabs do not value life because they're taught not to. There are many Arab-Israelis who enjoy the same rights of citizenship in Israel that Israel grants to its Jewish citizens. Can you say the same for Iran, or Syria, or Lebanon, in regards toward Jews? There's a lot of them that literally hate the Jews, and want to murder them down to the last child, and they'll praise Allah for every drop of blood they shed. Oh sure, they'll use the media to put a humanitarian spin on it, oh woe is me, look at how those dirty Jews kill our people (while the terrorists go run into a mosque, holding the people - Arabs, mind you - hostage and firing rockets from inside), but I can assure you that THEY want victory too, but their version of it consists of genocide. That is the policy of Dar Al Islam. Don't believe me? Read what is taught about Dar Al Harb, and Dar Al Islam. Read it from moderate Muslim sources if you like. You'll see. Israel's version of victory is to not have rockets lobbed accross its border so its people can live in peace. I know who I'm going to back in this fight, and it's Israel. They didn't pick this fight, and I won't criticize them for trying to win it. If Hizbullah didn't want an ass kicking maybe it should have thought twice about deliberately lobbing missiles into Israel's general population. That's the real crime here. Everyone calls on Israel to coexist. Where are the cries for their neighbors to coexist with them?
I'm pragmatic about the whole situation. If someone has to die - and trust me, people are going to die in that region no matter what - I'd rather it be the Hizbullah terrorists than the people they're trying to butcher. Civilians are going to die on both sides no matter what. Fighting is inevitable. War is inevitable. You can't bury a few thousand years of blood hatred with a few UN resolutions and calls from the "international community" for ceasefires because it's a "humanitarian crisis". Perhaps you do not see things through my jaded eyes because you've been spared witness of violence and evil that results from oppression, war, and brutality. If so, consider yourself blessed. I don't think it is wrong to abhor war. Every sane person should. If you truly hate war, and the death that it brings, then pray for a swift and decisive end to the conflict, with the upper hand going to those who value peace. Hizbullah, Iran, and Syria CANNOT be allowed to win this conflict.
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« Last Edit: 2006-07-26, 21:38 by Phoenix »
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scalliano
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First up, I don't think you're a heartless bastard.
Secondly, I was never implying that diplomacy was going to make it all go away or that Israel should have sat back. The title of this thread is "The Beginning of WWIII?" and I believe that it very well may be. This is a war which cannot be won. A "quick and decisive victory" is rarely achieved against a guerilla force, that's why the fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq continues unabated. And, as was already mentioned, with the possible threat from the warring nations' supporters, the Cold War could get very hot again.
Thirdly, perhaps i haven't seen the kind of stuff that you've seen (I don't know what you've seen and I won't press you) but whenever I see shit like this unfold, it frustrates me, having a pretty decent idea in my own mind of where it may all end (at least, I like to THINK it's a decent idea). I would hope that I could be forgiven for loosing off a bit of cynicism on the boards. I'm all about damage limitation because IMHO, as a species, we are screwed. We are already past the point of no return.
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PSN ID: scalliano
The Arena knows no gender, colour or creed, only skill.
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Phoenix
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BTW Israel scored a direct hit on a UN observation post yesterday, killing four. Now it gets interesting ... "What that means is, in plain English, 'We've got Hezbollah fighters running around in our positions, taking our positions here and then using us for shields and then engaging the (Israeli Defence Forces)," he said.
That would mean Hezbollah was purposely setting up near the UN post, he added. It's a tactic Maj.-Gen. MacKenzie, who was the first UN commander in Sarajevo during the Bosnia civil war, said he's seen in past international missions: Aside from UN posts, fighters would set up near hospitals, mosques and orphanages. http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/s...a9-7f94d5fc6d50Interesting indeed. I saw footage today of infrared video where Hezbollah was firing rocket after rocket from near that huge building that Israel hit that caused 56 civilian deaths. That's why this is so ugly. You have Hezbollah deliberately putting missile batteries where, if hit, it will cause the most media sensation and public outrage because it will kill a lot of people who are just in the way. I find this use of "human shields" the most damnable of offenses in this whole conflict. It is cowardly, it is cruel, and it underscores exactly why this group of thugs needs to be taken out of commission once and for all. Their tactics are deplorable, and their strategy perverse. They don't value Israeli civilians, they don't value Lebanese civilians. They are worse than worthless. They represent everything I hate about the human species through their actions. They are an offense to life.
Edit: Yet more evidence:http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,...5007220,00.html |
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« Last Edit: 2006-08-01, 04:23 by Phoenix »
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Sucutrule
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Sorry to bring this old topic to life again but:
We are riding for the battlefield in force tonight
Fury of the darkest evil cry for war
Far beyond the boundaries of hell and starlight
On the road to lands unknown forever more
Through the caverns far below our quest will lead us
Onwards through the ice and snow forever more
Standing fighting full of hate the time has come now
Stand and sound the guns of glory cry for war
On wings of glory we will carry on
Far across forgotten lands towards the distant sun
And in the darkness shining far beyond the starlight
Lightning is striking from the dark dawning shadows
And in the kingdom of the everlasting sun
When the glory of the master's time has come!
DragonForce - Fury of the Storm
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« Last Edit: 2007-07-07, 03:41 by Sucutrule »
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ReBoOt
Mean ol Swede
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Just read thru these posts rly quick since i need to go to work but can anyone tell me what "Evil" really is? i keep reading this word when u americans type, really whats evil? anyone not agreeing with you? Im not gonna defend islam or whatever since i believe their terrorist has no place in this world. But if you whould be on their side i pretty much think they see the west as "evil" or anyone thats not islam for that matter. What im trying to tell which side you are ever on the opposed faction is always "evil"  There is alot of war going on many of them are for religous causes or other diffrences, so has mankind really evolved that much? this behavior is like what it was back in the medeval ages or rather "caveman" behavior. Whats right, whats wrong, well it all depends on what side your on. Sorry if i hurted anyones feelings just trying to make you see things from all sides just not one. Anyways off to work! EDIT: shit this was an ol topic..oh well |
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« Last Edit: 2007-07-07, 08:35 by ReBoOt »
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