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death_stalker
 

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« Reply #40 on: 2007-11-26, 07:52 »

I think the biggest thing I miss in the newer Id games would be the sound tracks. The music playing in the background while you played to set up tension or to build up adrenaline during a hectic fight. I noticed in both DooM 3 and Quake 4 there was a lot of silence. Usually all you heard was the ambient sound effects of the area. Don't get me wrong though, that did help to build up tension for a good scare when something actually did happen though. Although, being a player of the old games, I do miss the music. Quake 4 on the other hand did have some pretty cool tracks for some of the areas though. I guess I'm just old fashioned lol. Even with my problems with the way they handled those 2 games I still can't wait for a new DooM game to come out though  Doom - Love Doom - Love Doom - Love .

As for Serious Sam... I did like it to an extent. However my hands did get tired after a while. I haven't tried it since I upgraded my system a while back. Hmmm... Doom - Huh? I wonder...
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« Reply #41 on: 2007-11-26, 16:25 »

Doom 3 used a LOT of ambient sounds.  I've been through the pk3 with all the sound files, and there's no shortage.  I can't remember ever hearing true silence in Doom 3.  If you use headphones of good quality (as I do) you'll hear a lot of subtle and sometimes not-so-subtle ambiance.  That's a huge part of the atmosphere.  To play Doom 3, here's what I do:

1)  Make sure I can get a steady 60FPS almost all the time.  Sync my monitor up to 60Hz, and tweak Doom 3 to not allow any stuttering.  Make sure the light balance is correct in the game.
2)  Adjust the sound volume so I can hear the subtle noises (but not so loud that gunshots hurt my hearing) and use the headphones.
3)  Get my nest pitch black except for a soft red light so that I do not get "screen blind".
4)  Use my weapons mod pack that makes the shotgun not suck and speeds up the plasma rounds.

I think that really helps get the most out of it, or at least to me it does.  If you can get that immersive element going Doom 3 can be enjoyable for the dark creepiness.  If you can't hear all the ambient sounds I think it loses a lot of it, and playing Doom 3 in bright ambient light just destroys it.  I do miss the music tracks in the games, but I think triggered music is what everyone has gone to.
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Kajet
 

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« Reply #42 on: 2007-11-26, 18:04 »

Triggered music isn't necessarily BAD, it helps the blood flow quicken for fights and slow for (overused?) puzzles/obscure paths, it's simply UNDER-used. The half life series is a prime example, you get some rather good music when you get a car/hoverboat but squat in the city rebellion or during the final boss fights.

I'd think you'd need adrenaline pumping music more in a fire fight than you would when you get in a freaking crane...

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Lopson
 

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« Reply #43 on: 2007-11-26, 18:39 »

Call of Duty has plenty of run-n'-gun moments. In fact, Call of Duty was a great combination of objectives and run-n'-gun. Apparently, the last installment of CoD is more tactical than run-n'-gun. A shame, really.
Objectives and run-n'-gun can live together, but they have to be balanced, and I guess that is the major problem with today's FPSs. Devs aren't balancing these two elements correctly. The result? Mediocre FPS that could have been a lot more than what they are.

About soundtracks: HL2 is an awesome example of a well-applied soundtrack. The right song for the right moment. However, if  a game companie doesn't have a competent music composer, then I'd rather play the game without music than with music. :P
« Last Edit: 2007-11-26, 18:43 by Lopson » Logged

death_stalker
 

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« Reply #44 on: 2007-11-26, 21:26 »

I'll have to give that a shot Pho. Maybe the same would hold true for Quake 4. Haven't really been able to sit through the entire game yet. I guess I have Quake 2 still in my mind while playing it lol.

Sorry about hijacking the thread. Please continue.
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Phoenix
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« Reply #45 on: 2007-11-26, 23:13 »

This discussion is all relevant, so I'd not consider it hijacking.  Now as for Quake 4... no amount of tweaking can really improve anything.  It's not creepy and atmospheric like Doom 3, and it's not meant to be.  It's supposed to be more of a stand up fight.  Therein lies some of the problem I think.  The Strogg and the Strogg environs in Quake 4 are just flat out wrong.  There should be at least some resemblance to Quake 2, yet there is none whatsoever.  The gameplay is way off as well, and certainly the arsenal is wrong.  If it were just its own game it could be forgettable or even forgivable, but this is supposed to be THE successor to Quake 2.  Doom 3 can be accepted because you've gone from 2d sprites and 2.5d terrain to a full 3d, realistically lit physics environ with a complete retconning of just about everything.  The horror theme could be played off of with the new engine.  Quake 2 already had a 3d environ and well recognized domains for its denizens.  It only needed enhancing, not reinventing.

I know I've said this before, but I would really have preferred a remaking or expanding of Quake 1 using the Doom 3 engine.  I know there's the Shambler's castle project (which I've not played) but I mean a full game.  Q1 had what could have been a very creepy side to it, and had a lot of shadow.  It seems a shame that Id passed this up.  It seems our Slipgate Ranger has become a casualty of innovation.
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death_stalker
 

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« Reply #46 on: 2007-11-27, 06:54 »

I never really understood why the story went from what it was in Q1 to the one from Q2. I wouldn't have changed it for the world because I love the story in Q2. Q1 on the other hand kind of lost me a bit.

I shouldn't try to think tonight... hurting my head. Got to take a final in the morning. Nite guys lol.
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Phoenix
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« Reply #47 on: 2007-11-27, 16:05 »

Well the short answer is John Romero left Id, and Id went in a different direction, or you could say John Romero left Id because Id was going in a different direction, or Id's going in a different direction caused John Romero to leave Id.  Anyway... the old Q1 never got an actual sequel, just a few expansion packs.  Consider, not counting expansion packs:

GAME
Wolfenstein 3D
Doom
Quake
Quake 2
    SEQUEL
Return to Castle Wolfenstein
Doom 2, Doom 3
----
Quake 4

I don't count Quake 3 Arena as a sequel or as needing a sequel since it's primarily multiplayer and incorporates some elements of Id games prior.  Q1 is left all alone.
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scalliano
 

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« Reply #48 on: 2007-11-28, 00:18 »

My biggest issue with modern FPS games is that mission objectives are pretty much allways completely laid out for you. There's no real PUZZLING anymore (HL2 Portal aside, obviously). You know, working out some mad combination of switches in a level that opens up a massive secret area, platforming/teleport puzzles or the sort of set pieces that make you stand back and think, Right, I need to get over there, but how??

A good practical example of what I mean is the Alfred wad for D2. Not much of a looker, but it's completely bonkers. The thing is, it CAN be beaten without cheating.
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Phoenix
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« Reply #49 on: 2007-11-28, 02:54 »

That's one of the things I liked about Trespasser.  You were left completely alone to solve everything by your wits.  Sometimes it was somewhat obvious what to do, other times not so much, and while there was a definite linear progression, you could wander around and explore.  You just want to go straight to the next goal?  Fine.  You want to roam a bit and explore?  You might find something useful if you do or just scenery, or maybe something you'd rather not encounter.

I think this is also why I liked Unreal.  You pretty much had one main goal, which is the typical FPS "find the exit", but it was never spoonfed to you.  The progression from one level to the next felt natural, the environments were varied and interesting, and you didn't have an NPC or mission computer telling you "go here, do this", you just did it.  You had the translator for backstory and important clues (*cough* Doom 3 PDA *cough*) or you could ignore a lot of it and gun things down.  As for dark and creepy... when you shut down the Skaarj ship's reactor they did a good job there.  That was the original dark flashlight FPS moment as far as I'm concerned, and it felt a lot more natural.

Too many games now make you feel like you're being herded.  I think there's a tendency for overscripting of important events.  Do we really need cutscenes for every new monster we meet?  To me that's rather anticlimactic.  I'd rather just meet the things.  For example, Doom 3's trites had no cutscene.  You see a shadow in a crawlspace, and when you first meet them they just come out and attack you, and it's a SWARM when they do.  That sent my "I REALLY hate this creature" meter up nice and high, though surprisingly they never do swarm you inside a crawlspace.  Same thing with the Cherubs, which I hate more than trites.  Damned evil babies.  It's on the ground, and next thing you know it's slashing at your face.  I compare that to the cutscene monsters, like the Revenant,  Mancubus, Imps, Pinky demons, etc.  Maybe just a preference on my part, but it feels like the cutscenes take something out of it.  I think it breaks continuity.
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« Reply #50 on: 2007-11-30, 00:58 »

I agree. Just imagine what Babel would have been like if you had been shown a cutscene of Cyber-bake coming around the corner. It would never have had the "WTF WAS THAT??" factor that made it so memorable. I still get chills thinking about laying on the ground staring at that big red silouhette in the distance.
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« Reply #51 on: 2007-11-30, 01:19 »

I'm in two minds on the cutscene usage. On the one hand, I prefer to remain in control, and more importantly, in character, rather than get a weird third-person cutscene right before the action. The way it was handled in some games (including D3) took me out of the game, rather than aid immersion. On the other hand, where used properly such effects do tend to add to the dramatic effect. I'm not so sure I think the FPS genre needs that kind of thing, or whether it can use it without making it a gimmick. However, I do appreciate the gaming industrys attempts, succesful or not, to bring gaming to a kind of maturity on par with the cinema -- so long as there will be at least some games that stick to the old set-up..

I prefer HL(2)-style dramatics-, immersion-, and cinematographical aids: they set the mood, but keep you in the game.
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Kajet
 

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« Reply #52 on: 2007-11-30, 02:08 »

I kinda like how FEAR did things, you saw everything through your character's eyes but thanks to psychic visions you got more of the story than you would in say HL2
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« Reply #53 on: 2007-12-01, 09:44 »

Cutscenes must have something meaningful. Most D3 cutscenes serve one purpose: to show a new monster to the player, and that isn't exactly meaningful. Like you guys, I'd rather face a new beast face to face than through a cutscene.
HL2 has no cutscenes whatsoever, and I really like that about the game. FPSs are about first person, so I believe that everything that happens in a FPS should be seen through the eyes of the character, not through a "camera" behind the character.
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Phoenix
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« Reply #54 on: 2007-12-01, 18:42 »

To me, cut scenes can be used to advance dialog or show some other plot device happening away from the character.  For example, the air duct sequence in Doom 3 where at the end Campbell says, "Alright, plan B," is an example of where that's appropriate.  I think what's happened is there is a change in how cinematic sequences are handled.  A lot of older games had a clear cut division - cinematics were for story advancement, gameplay was gameplay.  Now you have the cinematics inside the gameplay.  I kind of understand part of why Id used cut scenes.  If the player is free roaming, they might look the other way and miss something, so I can understand their thinking there.  I do think Half-Life 2 handled it better by keeping the player in the game at all times.  I still think the best cut scene ever was Quakeguy standing on Shub's platform with the axe, with text scrolling by to the sinister music.  Slipgate - Grin
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Kain-Xavier
 

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« Reply #55 on: 2007-12-02, 13:30 »

Wow, I've missed out on quite a bit of discussion so far...

I too feel the DOOM 3 engine would have been perfect for a Quake 1 sequel.  I need to reinstall DOOM 3 so I can check out the Shambler's Castle mod.

I personally liked the inclusion of the PDA in DOOM 3.  I will concede that some of the audio logs ran long though.  It would have been nice to be able to move around while listening to one.

I also liked the inclusion of NPC's in DOOM 3.  The sentry guns were really your only friend in that game.  Everything else was trying to kill you.  Quake 4 was a little better but once you became "stroggified," you were on your own again.

As for the color palette of a game, I prefer vibrant and contrasting colors.  Quake 2 came out when colored lighting was still a relatively new thing.  As such, it had all sorts of crazy color combinations and I loved it.

DOOM 1 & DOOM 2 were about action first and horror second.  DOOM 3 was a let down for me because it focused far too much on the horror element rather than the action.  Its expansion, Resurrection of Evil, did a far better job of balancing the two.

The sewer portion of RoE is a great example of this.  You had a long narrow corridor populated by many enemies, a chain-gun full of ammo, and a desperate need to get to the other side.  The helmet that shielded you from the poisonous air also enhanced the mood by muffling all of the noise around you so that you could only hear the rapport of your bullets and the dying screams of your enemies.  Slipgate - Smile

Returning to the Delta lab was also a wonderful mix of horror and action.  The entire section phased in and out of Hell.  You'd be in an empty corridor one moment and then surrounded by damned souls the next.

Painkiller is also in the vein of DOOM although it plays more like Quake 1 in terms of movement.

I like ambient noise, but I'm not a big fan of ambient music.  (I hate most of Quake 1's soundtrack.)  I also like triggered music, but I don't like it when it's only triggered by being in combat.

I personally think Raven did an acceptable job at recreating the Quake 2 universe in Quake 4.  The architecture was decidedly Stroggish sans the crazy colored lighting.  The character designs for the Strogg were generally different but still adequately disturbing.  I also thought the inclusion of squad-mates was appropriate given that you're fighting a war and that you weren't the only survivor this time.

As for the arsenal, well I think they were going for a mixture of weapons past and present.  I didn't mind the choice of weaponry so much as the choice of sounds that accompanied them.  The Quake 4 nail gun produces one of the most obnoxious sounds I've ever heard.  The fact that you come to rely on the upgraded form of the nail gun later on in the game just makes it worse.  *CHINK* *CHINK* *CHINK*

Oh and you also have to give Quake 4 props for the drop scene.  That screamed nostalgia.  (It was one of the few instances where a game made me shout out in glee.)

In regards to why the setting and story changed between Quake 1 and Quake 2...

I remember reading something about that in one of the interviews of John Carmack during Quakecon 2007.  He said something to the effect of that they wanted to call Quake 2 something else but every name they tried was already taken so they just stuck with Quake since they had the rights to it.

I too miss secret areas.  Puzzles are too often used now to pad out a game's length.

As for cut-scenes, I prefer third person but I don't mind first person when it makes sense.  I don't want to feel like a camera attached to a pair of disembodied arms.

In regards to DOOM's 3 cutscenes, I too feel that the monster introduction scenes were overused.  The only two I really enjoyed were the pinky demon and the cyber-demon.  I liked the pinky demon just because it filled you with a sense of dread about what the beast could do to you if it ever got close enough.  The cyber-demon scene just made you feel horrifically underpowered and insignificant (which is why the actual battle is so ridiculously anti-climatic.)

And I think that's everything I wanted to respond to... :p
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Sucutrule
 

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« Reply #56 on: 2007-12-02, 15:10 »

Doom/Doom II = Massive hordes of monsters from hell that you need to kill.
Quake = Not so massive, but adds difficulty with the "activate Button - Oh shit!" kind of trap.
Quake II = Run n' gun through tough cyborgs.
Quake III = Blowing every one's ass with slugs/bullets/missiles/energy projectiles.
Quake 4 = Even more run n' gun
Doom 3 = Killing maybe one or two monsters at the time with those typical "moster suddenly out of the closet" moments.
Doom 4 = Should be more like Doom II
Original Quake sequel = Should be more like Doom 3, only with more enemies and more athmospheric.
 
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Tabun
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« Reply #57 on: 2007-12-02, 15:19 »

Quote
I personally liked the inclusion of the PDA in DOOM 3.  I will concede that some of the audio logs ran long though.  It would have been nice to be able to move around while listening to one.

It was. Just click away the PDA, and the log keeps running.
In D3 (as opposed to Bioshock) you would actually be unlikely to run into anything while listening to the log, provided you don't just run to the next fight-zone.
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« Reply #58 on: 2007-12-02, 22:54 »

It was. Just click away the PDA, and the log keeps running.
In D3 (as opposed to Bioshock) you would actually be unlikely to run into anything while listening to the log, provided you don't just run to the next fight-zone.

Whoops, memory serves me wrong then.
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Phoenix
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« Reply #59 on: 2007-12-03, 00:47 »

You could lower the PDA when video disks were running, too.  The audio would still play in the background.  Actually it was pretty nice how they handled the video disks.  All of them except for two were on UAC displays in the game, so if you missed something you'd get a video disk of it later.  I think the plasma gun briefing was the only disk that wasn't on a display loop somewhere too.  I did not dislike the PDA in Doom 3.  It did advance the story and if you wanted into a storage cabinet you needed them, and you could ignore a lot of things on it or read everything as you saw fit.  The only area they failed with the displays was in the medical lab in the Delta complex.  It was overbright and washed out and you couldn't read the options to change the text logs around.  I had to click at random to read all the medical logs.

Something I did find out kind of accidentally when replaying Doom 3 was that the PDA does not pause the action.  It's held like any other weapon, and if you take damage while the PDA is up, it will drop and you'll switch back to your gun.

Kain:  ROE did feel more like a standup fight than creeping around.  It was way too easy to just use the artifact for about every fight though.  It's fulfilling to run circles around the Z-Secs and pop them in the head with the shotgun, but I found most of the big fights were governed by timing your artifact usage.  That and the combination of the grabber made the game feel a little bit easy.  Still, it was enjoyable, and the only thing I really disliked was the overabundance of vulgars.  Doom 3 was mostly "imp-in-a-box" or "imp teleport in", ROE was "vulgar teleport in".  As for NPC's... the sentry bots were my favorite thing in the whole game.  They're practically indestructible and kick the snot out of the enemies... unlike most NPC's.  I found I could work in concert better with the sentry bots in Doom 3 to form a fire team than I could with the squads in Quake 4.  In Quake 4 I felt more like I was babysitting medics and techs so I could have walking armor and health stations.  Talk about a let down...

Now two things that have not made sense to me come to mind.  The first is... why did the BFG9000 turn into a BFG10k?  Second... how does shutting down the reactor in ROE give more power to the teleporter system?

Now as for Quake 4, there were a few moments in the game that really caught my attention, but only a few.  The most memorable was when the Hannibal landed.  Doom 3's engine can move big things around, and it was good to see that.  Other than that, it was an OK game, but just OK.  I just did not like the direction they took with it.
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